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I am in the market at this time for a sailboat
around 20' which I plan to power with electric
propulsion. I am interested in the Ray or Solz outboard. I am
a sailboat type from way back. I love sailing, and
have always held stinkpot powerboats in contempt.
<br>Now however, the more I think about silently gliding
along under electric power, at sailboat speeds, without
all the hassle of raising and rigging a mast, and
trimming sails. I think I may just leave the mast and
sails at home. I am also intrigued with the idea of a
solar panel awning, and maybe a wind generator, for
extending my range. I am envisioning a hybred electric boat
witch I can spend several days at a time, away from a
dock.<br>The 3 boats that are at the top of my list right now
are the Nimble 20, the Nimble Bay Hen, and the
Skipper 20.<br>I would love to just get a Compac 23 with
electric propulsion from Windborn, but can't afford
it.<br>Fair winds<br>william

Welcome to the club Marvin. If it is 37 HP diesel
you will probably need 10 to 15 HP to emulate the
performance characteristics. Depends on the prop and if you
and the boat are willing to have a bigger prop. A 37
ft. wooden ketch could weigh as much as 30,000 lbs
and would require a big prop. If there is enough room
to size the prop up you could probably do fine with
a 10 hp brushless DC motor and a 20" three blade.
Range could be unlimited by using a FischerPanda diesel
gen set with 4 times the fuel economy and the
additional benefits of having a generator(the refrig.,
tv/vcr,mr.coffee, breadmaker,icemaker,blender,etc.).All the things
my wife has determined are essentials. I have a 1939
restored Casey, cutter rigged 28 ftAWL 31 ft on deck and
19,500 lb displacement that is using a 6 HP Brushless DC
motor to do hull speed of 5 1/4 knots. It also has a
4KW FP generator and it all fits in the same engine
bed as the old diesel which was 22 HP. You can see
the boat in the Photos section of this club in Club
Album.

Greetings everyone,<br><br>My name is Marvin
Hamon and I have joined this group to dig a little
deeper in my interest in electric power for
boats.<br><br>I own a 39' custom wooden ketch that is currently
diesel powered by a 37hp Volvo-Penta engine. I am
entertaining the idea of converting to an all electric or
hybrid system. My interest is renewed each time I have
to use or work on the engine. <br><br>My background
is that I have a MS degree in electrical engineering
concentrating in power system and controls. I worked for
several years doing commercial design of power systems,
transformers and distribution. Then I was lured into computer
programming and promptly forgot most of my engineering. I've
had a moderate amount of hands on experience with DC
motors and controllers along with all the theory I had
to wade through in college.<br><br>I sail pretty
often on the San Francisco Bay and am looking forward
to getting some more ideas for this possible
conversion.<br><br>I'm looking forward to being a part of the
group.<br><br>Marvin

Like was previously stated prop sizing is the all
important factor. In regernation and also in propulsion. If
you haven't read it I suggest you get a copy of Dave
Gerr's "Propeller Handbook". It is well worth the time
it takes to read it. I have an excel spread sheet
that I have developed that will also aid you in you
propeller sizing. All realy did is take the known propeller
formulas that are in Mr. Gerr's book and matched them to
some Physics formulas and came up with a way of
modeling performance. of course like any model the results
are only theoretical but at least it will allow you
to play some what if games. It also is useful for
tuning your boats performance. If you would like I'll
send you a copy. Just E Mail me at Donaldbaer@...
and I will send it to you.<br><br>Regards<br>Don Baer

Regeneration depends on the air, hull speed of
vessel, prop size and where the prop is located in
reference to hull form. With a 13" prop i am guessing that
the vessel is only 25 to 28 feet with a slim hull.
There will be no regeneration until about 4 knots and
at that time I will guess(and I do mean guess) 400
watts. At 6 knots which sounds to be 1 knott or so over
the projected hull speed of a 25-28 foot boat...I
will guess about 700-900 watts. If you are three foot
or better seas the wave action will add an aditional
300-500 watts. Truth is...every prop and hull form is
different and it is hard to really estimate it without
further information. Going the other way....with a 19"
prop in heavy air at 5 knots you can expect 2-3 KW.The
key to boating efficiency is prop size...the bigger
the better...it also follows Newton's laws that this
would stand for regeneration as well.

I think the figure is $1.7M todate...but after
reading Andre Mele's "Polluting for Pleasure" it is worth
every penny of it. Thank you for the kind statements
and we welcome your visit and anyone from this club.
This club is facilitating thought process that will
ultimately change our world for the better and forever. We
must never give up...the future is now.

Did I break some kind of rule with that last
post?<br><br>If I state it more generally is the following
OK?<br><br>How much energy is generated during regeneration by a
4KW motor?<br>If you have, oh lets say, a 13 inch
three blade prop for example, how much energy(lets say
in Watts) is created at 1 knot, 2 knots, 3 knots, 4
knots, 5 knots, and 6 knots?

Three percent seems very little. Thank you for
your frank reply to my questions. Your patent appears
well written. You obviously have invested much into
the entire project and I wish you well. The field of
innovative electric boating in my view is just starting and
inventions such as yours are unusually important in the
overall (long term) scheme of things. I would like to see
your product(s) up close some time, perhaps in the
summer.

One of the messages on the board which is addresed to Ewhel will not allow reading of the whole message. If the author could kindly re-post it I would be more than glad to answer as soon as I can.

Yes both motors are PM magnet motors and
approximately 3% is lost in the gears during start-up (0-500
rpm)after that the gear set turns as a fixed unit and there
are no losses. Unfortunately the answer to the last
question is no...only with the permission of ST. For those
who wish to be involved ST has a relatively liberal
policy with only a few forms that will allow
experimentation to take place...and even with help from us to get
ya started.

A question for Dave Tether:<br>How much energy is
generated during regeneration by the 4KW Ewheel?<br>If you
have, oh lets say, a 13 inch three blade prop for
example, how much energy(lets say in Watts) is created at
1 knot, 2 knots, 3 knots, 4 knots, 5 knots, and 6
knots? If you have data under different
conditions(different prop size) that would be great as well.

US Patent #5,863,228 is very interesting and I
hope that all members review this document for what it
teaches. In that context, I note that the claims all
recite a device having two motors (a ring motor and a
sun motor) that are mechanically connected to each
other through gears.<br><br>Are both motors (if less
than 10hp) preferably PM?<br>How much energy is lost
through the gearing?<br>Do you know whether any hobbyist
(someone who builds/retrofits their own boat for personal
use and not to-sell) may freely use this patent?

Lifeline batteries take a charge quickly and
produce no fumes...they can be mounted upside down, are
totally maintenance free and are used on stealth
bombers....any other questions ? If regenerative feedback is
going to be a factor in the system you might check
LEMCO to see what they know about it and what figures
they can quote on the regen they are capable of.
However, the Lifeline bateries will still be the best if
regen is expected bacause of the way it is
collected.Remember that you are going out to test mother nature with
the system you put in this new boat you are building
????

PS....before you decide to buy a motor that
regenerates..you might want to check US Patent #5,863,228.
Also...check the cost of the other trinkets necessary to hook
that motor up..ie.the thrust bearings, chain or
belting system, plate to hook up chain or belting system
and etc. You can have one of our 4KW motors for
$6,500 and with lifeline batteries..yer looking at
$10,000. Now thats not so painful to have the gold
standard.

Try Brimbelow Engineering and Brimbelow.co.uk. Of
the brushed DC motors Brimbelow Engineering in the UK
is the best. There motors are up to 2KW ...or 3 HP
and are marinized with at built in transmission. Yer
right..this is a sailboat that is too small for our motors
but Brimbelow Engineering has the right drive for
your needs.It is not the "backyard" system but rather
a system that has had thousands of hours of testing
in the marine environment. It doesnt regenerate but
it does have all the necessary testing required and
a CE stamp of approval(CE..European stamp of
approval which is more rigorous than US Underwriters Lab
approval).

Bill,<br> I'll let you knwo on the motor as soon
as I get the info. Concerning your battery
questions<br> Here i a link to a web site that will teach you
everything you everwanted to know about batteries and more.
On of the links actualy give weight, capities and
ball park prices of various type of batteries. If you
can take the time I think all of your battery
question will be
answered.<br><br><a href= target=new></a><br><br>Good luck and have fun

I have read some about all the different
batteries, wet leads are the cheapest, AGM's can be charged
the fastest, ect. So, what are the groups opinions on
which type of battery is best for the riggors and
abuses of life in an electric boat, where it will be
discharge rapidly at times, and may be recharged with an
onboard generator and solar panels?

Don:<br><br>If you find out more about PM motors in the 3 to 6 HP range, please let me know, I am very interesed.<br><br>Bill

In my case, it is definately a matter of cost. I
am building a sailboat, and the electric auxillary
motor is only a small part of the total boat. I am sure
that the ewheel is great, but I am trying to keep my
budget to about $15K for this project and as it stands
the ewheel is just too expensive (it may be more than
I really need for a 3500 LB sailboat as well), but
I would like to consider all options and keep an
open mind and thus learn as much about this
technologies as possible. Does anyone have any experience with
the LEMCO motors made in the UK? They are PM motors,
run at various Voltages (RPM is regulated by voltage)
up to 60 volts (I believe), and are not much more
expensive than wound motors. Does anyone know of an
importer of these in the US?

The Navey and Elco and many other boats builders
and user have been using brushed motors in bilges for
over 50years. They do work modern motors come in
various enclosures including IP67 which are water proof
but they cost a little more. I have personaly put DC
motors in many severe duty applications, have you ever
seen the wet end of a paper mill. I've put 300 HP DC
motor in mills where they are subject to cautic liquids
and they do work for many many years.<br>All motor
are designed with different base speed . In DC Motor
if you want an 1150 RPM Motor you wind it that way
the same as with Brushless mtors. other wise peole
use inexpensive speed reducer like chain, belt etc if
they want to save on costs.<br>A 2:1 speed reduction
is very simple to do and quite inexpensive. Thrust
bearing can and are mounted on prop shafts if
necessary.<br><br>By The way. DC Regenerative drives systems have been
in popular use since the early 70's and many control
manufacacturers "CURTIS, Brusa,, to name a few offer it as a
standard option for very little $$$ extra.<br><br>Buy The
way if the 10 HP motor were to go bad I can replace
it without much trouble, (at dock side) at a cost of
less than $700. and do it in an hour or
two.<br><br>Some people will opt for the Rolls royce and go with
you solution other will opt for the Chevrolet or Ford
approach. They'll both get in and out of the harbor its all
a matter of cost.