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I just bought a battery capacity/load tester

 

Just bought attached battery capacity/load tester. However, just noticed that it says:
  • Two power supply methods: 1. DC6-12V DC5.0 power supply; 2. DC6-12V Micro USB power supply.The body discharge power cannot exceed 150W, otherwise there is a risk of burnout.
I am a novice so I have to ask this question but only need a short answer: Will this accurately test 3.2v Eve cells?
?
Thanks.
?
Peter


Re: throttle control

 

I have used a number of alltrax ?controllers in golf carts and they can be set up to use a 0-5k ohm potentiometer, or other throttle setups but that is the most common and lowest tech.

You should be able to find the info on the Alltrax instructions, they used to have extensive documentation on their website.?

you would simply hook your throttle up to the proper terminals on the controller and a separate switch for forward/reverse.?

making your throttle run like a boat with a center off, forward by moving the lever forward of center and reverse by moving the lever back of center would probably be a complicated project. ?Doable but I don’t know how off the top of my head.?


Re: controller for torqueedo crusie 2.0 motor

 
Edited

"The electronics on my Torqeedo Cruise 2.0? suddenly died--that is the display on the throttle went dead. The battery is fully charged, and I checked all the connections. I hope the motor itself still works, so I'd like to buy a new controller. Does anyone know what kind of motor it is? There are only two power cables going into the motor. Does that mean it is a DC motor?"

What year is your Cruise 2.0? I think for all years, the display on the throttle is not the controller, It's just the throttle, and a display to show you info from the head of the outboard assembly, which has the GPS in it which tells you the speed etc. The actual motor controller in down in the pod with the motor.?
Therefore, the two big wires going down to the motor and controller in the pylon ( that's what torqeedo calls the motor pod) carry the 29.6v from the battery down to the controller, which then controls the motor. On my (really old) 2.0, it has another wire from the throttle down to the controller that gives it the speed asked for by the throttle.?
The controller is built into the pylon, so that it carries heat out to the water by way of the aluminum part of the pylon that holds the motor, gearbox and controller.?
The motor is a 3-phase permanent magnet brushless DC motor. In this style of motor, the controller uses the DC voltage to make a 3-phase sine wave that varies its frequency to make the motor go different speeds. You cannot just give the big wires more or less voltage, that motor will not work that way, it has to have a sophisticated controller.?
That said, if your display is not showing anything, it is more likely that you have a bad connection than anything else. Unfortunately I do not know these motors well enough to effectively diagnose one, especially over email.?
If you can find someone with a similar motor, maybe you can swap out the theottle, or maybe you can clean the contacts for the plug, or if you're bold you can even disassemble things a bit to test if there is a broken wire in the cable.?
If yours is the mid-age model, Torqeedo will likely still be able to help you with it, they have service centers around the country who could probably diagnose it. Mine is too old, they don't have parts and won't even talk to me about giving me service information about it. As such, I have taken it apart and am planning on replacing the controller with one that I can get parts for. It will be large and therefore will have to be mounted up top of the motor instead of inside the pylon, possibly with a cooling fan. I got a generic controller from Kelly Controller, but you might have success with one built for a radio controlled airplane motor. The biggest hurdle so far is figuring out where and how to wire in the position sensors, the ones in the stock controller are too built in and are impossible to access and use. There are controllers that don’t use sensors and they can work but I’m not sure if the trade offs.?
If you poke around on the internet a bit you can find people who have had the same problem and may have some useful tricks to use to diagnose and clean/repair the connections. There is a torqeedo group on Facebook that has some smart people on it.?
Sorry I don't have better news.?
?
Anton
?


controller for torqueedo crusie 2.0 motor

 

The electronics on my Torqeedo Cruise 2.0? suddenly died--that is the display on the throttle went dead. The battery is fully charged, and I checked all the connections.
?
I hope the motor itself still works, so I'd like to buy a new controller. Does anyone know what kind of motor it is? There are only two power cables going into the motor. Does that mean it is a DC motor?
?
PS I would recommend not buying Torqeedo products. Mine has been nothing but trouble. The original motor had a leak and water got in. Torqeedo replaced it after a year of arguing. Then the electronics died. I got maybe 10-20 hours of total use from the motor.


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

Thanks Bob. I will check that out.


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

Peter.
You're balancing a batch if cells identical to the ones I recently finished capacity testing, recharging, and balancing as my new pack.
My ThunderStruck chargers and related monitoring gear were already installed on the boat, so on my test/work bench at home, all I had to use to recharge each cell after drawing it down were a 300 watt variable voltage power supply, and a 12vdc, 30 amp Lipo charger.
My target pre-install balance voltage for each cell was 3.55v starting from just under 3.00v.
My work flow for each cell was to do a discharge test (end state of ~2.7v recovering to ~3.0v) and use the variable power supply to bring the cell up 3.2v or so while the next cell was being discharged.? As each cell completed that cycle, I connected it in parallel with the previous cell such that I had 4 cells at roughly the same 3.2v.? After the four cells had some time to balance to one another (checking each cell with a good multimeter), I reconnected them into 12v series and attached my 30amp, 12v Lipo charger.? The 30a charger pumped more watts per cell than my 300 watt variable power supply could.
Once the cells were just over my target voltage, I took the 4-pack apart and reconnected them in parallel once more.? The next 4 cells went the same way, then I had 8 cells in parallel at my target, and so on thru the 16 cells.
If you don't have access to a 30+amp charger running at 48+volts, and are limited as I was to a low-watts power supply, or a 12v 30amp charger, then grouping them into 12v packs can take less time.
Whether discharging or charging, these cells will sit at around 3 3vdc for most of the cycle.? The like all Lipo cells, the discharge curve is quite flat between about 15% SOC and 90% SOC.
It's important to closely monitor each cell individually while charging to avoid exceeding 3.65v.? Once they get to ~3.55v they can climb pretty quickly to max allowable.
The equipment you're using is different than mine, and it seems youbare starting from a higher SOC for each cell than I was in my process.? So you'll have to make appropriate adjustments.
Be safe; have fun!!
[-tv]
?


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

A FLIR infrared cam on your smartphone could easily show temperature differences during charging.
I have a small thing called FLIRONE PRO. Very efficient, very useful. Snaps into the USB-C gate on your phone.


On Monday, 14 October 2024 at 06:11:26 CEST, bobkart <couch45@...> wrote:


It doesn't seem like that will speed things up.? The same amount of energy needs to go into the battery with either approach.? Sure, you'll see one four-pack get there more quickly.? But getting all sixteen cells full will not go more quickly.? It will go a bit more slowly due to the regrouping of cells (and self-discharge on four-packs not being charged).
?
I suspect you could use more power.? In the other thread, I suggested MeanWell's RSP-500-4.? Yes it costs more.? It's a spend-more or wait-longer tradeoff.? Not counting delivery time for the better charger.
?
Another possibility is that you have damaged-cell issues.? You may want to check for one or more cells being warmer than the others.? They could be 'sinking' current.? Although at the low level you're charging, you might not be able to tell the difference just by touching them.? At 100A the difference would be more obvious.
?
?


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

It doesn't seem like that will speed things up.? The same amount of energy needs to go into the battery with either approach.? Sure, you'll see one four-pack get there more quickly.? But getting all sixteen cells full will not go more quickly.? It will go a bit more slowly due to the regrouping of cells (and self-discharge on four-packs not being charged).
?
I suspect you could use more power.? In the other thread, I suggested MeanWell's RSP-500-4.? Yes it costs more.? It's a spend-more or wait-longer tradeoff.? Not counting delivery time for the better charger.
?
Another possibility is that you have damaged-cell issues.? You may want to check for one or more cells being warmer than the others.? They could be 'sinking' current.? Although at the low level you're charging, you might not be able to tell the difference just by touching them.? At 100A the difference would be more obvious.
?
?


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

After doing this balancing for about 10 days and still a long way from 3.65v , and doing some more research, I am wondering about splitting the 16 batteries up into groups of 4 and then charging them, with a 12v LifePo4 charger, to 3.55v, which will take about an hour or two for each group of 4, which are now at 3.310. Then top balancing them to 3.65v. From what I have read LiFePo4 batteries flatline and increase a tiny bit at a time, until they get close to the target voltage, 3.65v, and then the balancing happens a lot quicker. The batteries are at 3.310 now, and they were at 3.27v ten days ago. If charging them in groups of 4 to 3.55v and then putting the 16 back in parallel to balance to 3.65 is an acceptable method I will do it and it will save me a lot of time and accomplish the same thing. I hope. Whatever thoughts you have would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Peter


Sent via phone and big thumbs


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

Thanks. Will check out those you tubes. I started the balancing at 3.27v. Only because that was their voltage when I got them 3 years ago.

Peter


Sent via phone and big thumbs


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

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You have 4,480 ah at 3.2 volts. Sounds like you are putting in 3.52 amps? If your batteries are at 50% SOC you need to put in 2,240 ah. At 3.52 amps it will take 636 hours or 24 days! Sit tight.?


Matt Foley

Sunlight Conversions?
1-201-914-0466




ABYC Certified Marine?
Electrical Technician





On Oct 12, 2024, at 10:09?AM, shredderf16 <Shredderf16@...> wrote:

?

Peter,
?? No clue. I just did the math and based on your voltage and amp readings (12 watts coming in) and came up with 7 days. The last time I did this myself it was a week to 10 days. Longest I've heard of from one of my buddies was 2-3 weeks. It really depends on the SOC when you first parallel them. Will Prowse on You Tube has a couple of videos on this. Watch them and maybe he's got some insight.
Jerry



On October 12, 2024, at 8:37 AM, Peter Knowlton <pqknowlton@...> wrote:


Since this group has provided me with the soundest advice I am coming back for some more, on a similarly related issue dealing with balancing my 16 Eve 3.2v 280 ah LifePo4 batteries. I purchased a dc power supply as advised. Charged the cells to 3.27, give or take, and then put the 16 cells in parallel. That was 10 days ago.? Put the dials at 3.7v and 3.52 ah. They are all now at 33.09v after 10 days, although the two end batteries are 3.10v. That is probably fine as it goes but here's the issue I need advice on: The batteries have not advanced from the 33.10/33.09 for over a day now. Every day before this the battery voltage would increase only a few tenths of a volt, but there was a steady increase. However, with no increase in the last 24 hours I am wondering if they are topped out, despite what I'm reading and seeing from others that they should be balanced to at least 3.5v. Any ideas why they might be "stalled" or are they topped out? Should I just patiently wait a little longer to see what happens or does no change in the last 24 hours mean they are topped out and ready to go? Thanks for whatever ideas you have.
?
Peter


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

Peter,
?? No clue. I just did the math and based on your voltage and amp readings (12 watts coming in) and came up with 7 days. The last time I did this myself it was a week to 10 days. Longest I've heard of from one of my buddies was 2-3 weeks. It really depends on the SOC when you first parallel them. Will Prowse on You Tube has a couple of videos on this. Watch them and maybe he's got some insight.
Jerry



On October 12, 2024, at 8:37 AM, Peter Knowlton <pqknowlton@...> wrote:


Since this group has provided me with the soundest advice I am coming back for some more, on a similarly related issue dealing with balancing my 16 Eve 3.2v 280 ah LifePo4 batteries. I purchased a dc power supply as advised. Charged the cells to 3.27, give or take, and then put the 16 cells in parallel. That was 10 days ago.? Put the dials at 3.7v and 3.52 ah. They are all now at 33.09v after 10 days, although the two end batteries are 3.10v. That is probably fine as it goes but here's the issue I need advice on: The batteries have not advanced from the 33.10/33.09 for over a day now. Every day before this the battery voltage would increase only a few tenths of a volt, but there was a steady increase. However, with no increase in the last 24 hours I am wondering if they are topped out, despite what I'm reading and seeing from others that they should be balanced to at least 3.5v. Any ideas why they might be "stalled" or are they topped out? Should I just patiently wait a little longer to see what happens or does no change in the last 24 hours mean they are topped out and ready to go? Thanks for whatever ideas you have.
?
Peter


Re: Cells seem to have stopped increasing voltage when balancing

 

Since this group has provided me with the soundest advice I am coming back for some more, on a similarly related issue dealing with balancing my 16 Eve 3.2v 280 ah LifePo4 batteries. I purchased a dc power supply as advised. Charged the cells to 3.27, give or take, and then put the 16 cells in parallel. That was 10 days ago.? Put the dials at 3.7v and 3.52 ah. They are all now at 33.09v after 10 days, although the two end batteries are 3.10v. That is probably fine as it goes but here's the issue I need advice on: The batteries have not advanced from the 33.10/33.09 for over a day now. Every day before this the battery voltage would increase only a few tenths of a volt, but there was a steady increase. However, with no increase in the last 24 hours I am wondering if they are topped out, despite what I'm reading and seeing from others that they should be balanced to at least 3.5v. Any ideas why they might be "stalled" or are they topped out? Should I just patiently wait a little longer to see what happens or does no change in the last 24 hours mean they are topped out and ready to go? Thanks for whatever ideas you have.
?
Peter


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 06:17 PM, shredderf16 wrote:

The top balance works. About 3.6v in parallel with small DC power supply. Might take a week to 10 days.

I use this current-controlled power supply to speed up top balances (over 100 amps at 3.65V (voltage adjustable)):
?
?
Look for the charge current to stabilize at a tiny fraction of the total amp-hours you have in parallel.
Example: for my 10kWh, 48V-nominal pack, putting all sixteen cells in parallel comes to 3200Ah.


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

Peter,
Look at the charge/discharge chart for your batteries. There should be one. In addition to Will Prowse look up the Current Connected SOK rack battery manual. Very good discussion about charging, conclusion is to fully charge the bank every time.? You do need to top balance the bank. Our group of 3 guys have run solar off grid house banks exactly the same as yours for 4 years. Our biggest problem was BMS. Current favorite is Jackery, I personally made 3 Ant Bms from circuit boards from Taiwan. You can go without one if you top balance periodically with Lifepo4. All of us had cell failures like you did because of bad bms or because we manually over rid it. I recently went to server rack style because it's easier.

The top balance works. About 3.6v in parallel with small DC power supply. Might take a week to 10 days. Most exciting part is all that metal around exposed terminals. You drop a wrench once and you'll find out. Ditch the screws, get SS studs.
Jerry



On September 30, 2024, at 7:07 PM, bobkart <couch45@...> wrote:


3.65V is 'full' for LFP cells.? By bringing all your cells to that voltage (usually in parallel), you're more sure they are at the same energy level (assuming capacity-balanced cells).? This approach is referred to as 'top-balancing'.
?
The problem with 3.2V is that's on the very flat part of the charge/discharge curve for LFP chemistry.? You could be at 20% SOC or 40% SOC, depending on very small voltage differences that would all read as 3.2V on a not-very-precise-or-accurate meter.
?
There is also an approach called bottom-balancing, which I've never used, that tries to achieve the same result by starting at 0% SOC (or some other very low number).? I don't like bringing cells down that low (it can be hard on them), and it's not as well-defined of a voltage (2.5V, 2.75V, ...?).? 100% SOC is easy to know you're at, based on the cells not accepting further charge beyond just a trickle (C/100 say).


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

3.65V is 'full' for LFP cells.? By bringing all your cells to that voltage (usually in parallel), you're more sure they are at the same energy level (assuming capacity-balanced cells).? This approach is referred to as 'top-balancing'.
?
The problem with 3.2V is that's on the very flat part of the charge/discharge curve for LFP chemistry.? You could be at 20% SOC or 40% SOC, depending on very small voltage differences that would all read as 3.2V on a not-very-precise-or-accurate meter.
?
There is also an approach called bottom-balancing, which I've never used, that tries to achieve the same result by starting at 0% SOC (or some other very low number).? I don't like bringing cells down that low (it can be hard on them), and it's not as well-defined of a voltage (2.5V, 2.75V, ...?).? 100% SOC is easy to know you're at, based on the cells not accepting further charge beyond just a trickle (C/100 say).


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

Thanks for all your suggestions and comments. I am following through with them all. However, I do have one fine question before I begin the balance. The specs on the Eve 280ah cells says nominal voltage 3.2v. However, I have seen others, Will Prowse among them and he seems like a reputable person, balance theirs at 3.6. Since I’ve never seen any of my batteries register more than 3.30 and ALL of them from the day I got them in the 3.28 to 3.29 range I am reluctant to put the current for balancing up to 3.6. I cannot find any other specs for these batteries other that that nominal 3.2v. Should I just balance at 3.2 or should I go higher? Since I screwed them up the first time I am being very cautious and before I plug anything in or hook anything on I’m making sure to know just what I need to do and what settings need to be to do a successful balance. Thanks so much.
?
peter


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

Mark,
Agree very important to have bus bars and connections tight and clean. These Chinese cells have alu tapped terminals with iffy screws. I put SS studs in mine. Be very careful installing them, you can over torque them and break into battery cell easily. Bit once they are in a lot easier to change stuff later.
?
I hit a committent point on my 12 foot cat dinghy last month. Gas or electric. I was making motor mount. Motor mount done for 8 hp gas yamaha. In my opinion, motors not there yet. Batteries are there or very close.

The submersible motors always leak or corrode. I think everything electric needs to live a very sheltered life. I've got ideas, but waiting for someone else to do it.

I do believe one day this will be way to go, but not now.

Jerry



On September 26, 2024, at 12:47 PM, Mark Stafford <mstafford@...> wrote:


Peter,
Another possible failure point (there are many different types of failure points): each battery connection. Make sure each connection to each post of each battery has the same high amperage surface contact area, the same cleanliness, the same torque value on the nuts or bolts, the same operating temperature, the same washers, the same lug count, etc. The basic concept is that you are trying to drain and charge each battery identically. If one of the posts has a higher resistance to electricity flow (dirty, loose, wavy washer, different size washer, wavy lug, worse crimping of the battery cable to the lug...) that post will run hot, which changes the internal resistance of the battery, which further exacerbates the imbalance, which further drains that battery, which can quickly and permanently change the internal chemistry of the battery.
Most of the time, these slight imbalances amount to a hill of dry beans (dry beans self-level pretty well). But if you cook the beans, the hill of beans can be significant.
The BMS was telling you to stop, in a language that assumed you were an electrical engineer with deep knowledge of LiFePO4 battery chemistry. Sometimes safety requires us to kill the batteries to save the boat, so the nice thing about your BMS is that it let you kill some batteries to save yourselves.
One really helpful simple tool is a $30 temperature gun. A more expensive but automated option is to install calibrated temperature probes on each battery terminal, and feeding that information to a BMS that would alert you to temperature imbalances.
One gallon of diesel compares to roughly 40 kWh of energy. You have roughly 4 kWh in your fully charged healthy 16 battery pack (4,480 under perfect conditions, which they never are). But your e-propulsion is ideally about 5 times more efficient than diesel. This means your 4 kWh pack, times 5 for efficiency, equals 20 kWh diesel power equivalent. So going out with your (16) 280Ahr batteries fully charged is like leaving the dock with 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel. You could go really slow (~1 knot) for ~10 hours, or really fast for ~10 minutes, but then the batteries need charging. Your 2200EU generator allows you to travel at ~1 knot continuously if the generator is running continuously. These are very approximate water speed estimates, not GPS speeds, and are influenced by literally hundreds of variables about your sailboat, the sea state, the weather, people moving around on your boat, etc.
This is the ballpark you are playing in. It is not an argument for or against e-propulsion, just the current state of electricity storage and creation.
My arguments for e-propulsion are:
low operating cost
low maintenance
low stink
low sound
low space requirements
low emissions
high reliability
high precision of thrust
high thrust available
high longevity
high tech
high investment in a better tomorrow
The hard part: e-propulsion often comes with a high learning curve. Many of our ancestors died during the learning curve of gasoline, but they gifted us cultural wisdom about the dangers of gasoline. We are gifting our progeny with the cultural wisdom of clean energy use. Don't kill yourself in the process: each battery can be lethal.


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

Peter,
Another possible failure point (there are many different types of failure points): each battery connection. Make sure each connection to each post of each battery has the same high amperage surface contact area, the same cleanliness, the same torque value on the nuts or bolts, the same operating temperature, the same washers, the same lug count, etc. The basic concept is that you are trying to drain and charge each battery identically. If one of the posts has a higher resistance to electricity flow (dirty, loose, wavy washer, different size washer, wavy lug, worse crimping of the battery cable to the lug...) that post will run hot, which changes the internal resistance of the battery, which further exacerbates the imbalance, which further drains that battery, which can quickly and permanently change the internal chemistry of the battery.
Most of the time, these slight imbalances amount to a hill of dry beans (dry beans self-level pretty well). But if you cook the beans, the hill of beans can be significant.
The BMS was telling you to stop, in a language that assumed you were an electrical engineer with deep knowledge of LiFePO4 battery chemistry. Sometimes safety requires us to kill the batteries to save the boat, so the nice thing about your BMS is that it let you kill some batteries to save yourselves.
One really helpful simple tool is a $30 temperature gun. A more expensive but automated option is to install calibrated temperature probes on each battery terminal, and feeding that information to a BMS that would alert you to temperature imbalances.
One gallon of diesel compares to roughly 40 kWh of energy. You have roughly 4 kWh in your fully charged healthy 16 battery pack (4,480 under perfect conditions, which they never are). But your e-propulsion is ideally about 5 times more efficient than diesel. This means your 4 kWh pack, times 5 for efficiency, equals 20 kWh diesel power equivalent. So going out with your (16) 280Ahr batteries fully charged is like leaving the dock with 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel. You could go really slow (~1 knot) for ~10 hours, or really fast for ~10 minutes, but then the batteries need charging. Your 2200EU generator allows you to travel at ~1 knot continuously if the generator is running continuously. These are very approximate water speed estimates, not GPS speeds, and are influenced by literally hundreds of variables about your sailboat, the sea state, the weather, people moving around on your boat, etc.
This is the ballpark you are playing in. It is not an argument for or against e-propulsion, just the current state of electricity storage and creation.
My arguments for e-propulsion are:
low operating cost
low maintenance
low stink
low sound
low space requirements
low emissions
high reliability
high precision of thrust
high thrust available
high longevity
high tech
high investment in a better tomorrow
The hard part: e-propulsion often comes with a high learning curve. Many of our ancestors died during the learning curve of gasoline, but they gifted us cultural wisdom about the dangers of gasoline. We are gifting our progeny with the cultural wisdom of clean energy use. Don't kill yourself in the process: each battery can be lethal.


Re: Cells (modules) are dying.

 

Here's the one I have. I have 2 in different locations. Works well. Couldn't find share link, so paste in Amazon.
DC Power Supply Variable,0-30 V / 0-10 A LW-K3010D Adjustable Switching Regulated Power Supply Digital,with Alligator Leads US Power Cord Used for Spectrophotometer and lab Equipment Repair



On September 25, 2024, at 7:06 PM, Peter Knowlton <pqknowlton@...> wrote:


Thanks Jerry, Gives me hope. I just might try that. I have a couple that are below 2, as well. First it was the #6 module, then #5 went, and #12 went about the same time as #5. Do you have the link for that DC power supply you got?