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It was 41 degrees, however the sun was out, and
the Erie Canal has just been reflooded ...... so out
came my Elco Serenity 14' from its garage and off we
went down the Canal for a cruise of about 2 hours and
12 minutes. Heading east down the Canal and Mohawk
River, we faced a brisk east wind coming straight up the
Canal. This created a bit of a chop but I was dressed
for it and actually enjoyed the fresh air. I set the
throttle at 15 amps and made about 4.5 miles in just over
an hour. At that point I turned around and headed
back - this time with the wind - and all became calm -
bringing back memories of sailing downwind. Wildlife
consisted of mallards, canada geese, black ducks, osprey,
blackbirds, crows and most interesting of all, evidence that
beavers had been hard at work during the winter trimming
the shoreline. Just wanted to report that the boating
season is opening up here in central New York, in spite
of the prediction for flurries tonight. The Erie is
really an ideal place for elctric cruising. I am
fortunate that I live just minutes from the marina and it
takes me less than 15 minutes from garage to cruising
out of the harbor. I also do not have to leave my
launch in the water and it gets washed after every
cruise and is immediately plugged in and soon ready for
the next day. The electronics wintered well and the
boat started up without my having to do anything with
the motor, batteries or anything else. What a joy!
Paul

budmorevolts...you have no idea!!! Picture
this..the Solo 6 in the Casey can stop the boat from 5 1/4
knotts in 20 feet!!! Now you are comming in to the fuel
dock, for ice and beer of course, and running at hull
speed...the dock attendant is watchin' this antique tank
rollin in at full speed and then suddenly...with no
noise...it just stops ! I have seen eyes as big as tennis
balls and would really like to have checked the guys
blood pressure. Then he walks around to the stern and
sees a big wooden plug in the exhaust pipe...Ohhh..the
pleasures of electric boating.

Yes smaller batteries can be used and as you would expect...the Brushless DC motors are almost twice as expensive with regen, sealed and thrust bearings.

eklatek...yes..we converted a 58 ft Narrow Barge
in England to diesel-electric hybrid. It was 38,000
lb displacement and did 6 1/2 mph with one of our
Electric Wheels and an 18" three blade prop. In retro we
should actually have put a 20" three blade on it
instead. It had a 6 kw FischerPanda AGT generator but I
would recomend at at least a 10KW gen if you wish to
motor and run house appliances. If the boat had twin
screws it would be better too. ewhel@... or
301-274-4479 are contact numbers should you wish further
details.

Does anyone have experience in converting a 65' houseboat to e-motors?

Thanks for the info Bud.I was looking at the fact
the Ray put out approx.200# thrust but obviously the
trolling motors must be propped for max. static thrust and
drop off as rapidly as speed rises.re the sneakeasy
that was a boat I thought would be an interesting e
boat, was it left an electric?.I am putting together a
home made electric outboard out of bits I had laying
around as an experiment.I will post results when
completed.<br><br>thanks <br>Gary

ewhel,<br><br>Thanks for the info. I like the
idea of the regenerative motor. What is the cost
difference between the "brush-ful" and brushless motors.
Additionally, how much smaller of a battery pack would be
adequate and what type of battereries would be
best?<br><br>Thanks,<br>James

That Casey of yours, does the silence of the
propulsion system attract comments? Must be a blast to motor
by the fuel dock without stopping.<br>It would
appear the The only fossils on your bay are in the
sand.<br>Happy boating,<br>bud

If you want to go electric..take fossil fuel HP
in boat and divide by 4 for electric equivalent. If
you want regenerative feedback from prop the most
will come from a brushless DC magnet motor and you
should consider changing the prop to the biggest 3 blade
you can fit into the aperture of the boat. In
brushless DC motors, and assuming an efficient prop, you
will need approximately 50 foot pounds of torque which
will relate to full speed in worst conditions
(1amp=1ft.pound over 120-144 VDC and 50 amp hours at max). This
will be much less in becalmed conditions. My 10 ton
Casey does 5 1/4 knotts on 25 amps in calm and 35 amps
working against a 22 knott head wind. Regenerative
feedback on brushless DC will allow you to have a 3 or 4
to 1 recharge ratio (for every hour on motoring you
must sail for 3 or 4 to put energy back) in light
sailing wind of 10 knotts. This can be as little as 2 to
1 in heavy air. <br> For continuous off shore use I
recomend a FischerPanda AGT DC generator in combination
with a smaller battery pack. For your application 150
amp hours (2 1/2 hours motoring on batteries) and a
6kw AGT will give you unlimited motoring with 3 to 4
times the fuel economy of the standard diesel. This
does not include additoional saivings from
regenerative sailing which, given the right wind conditions,
will carry you 80% of the time.<br> Look for a motor
that is sealed, inverter duty, continuous duty,with
thrust bearings and marinized. ewhel@....
(301)274-4479

Kirsti,<br> Many of the inexpensive chargers have
a bi-metalic thermostatic device called a klixon
mounted close to the diodes to protect them from over
heating. If the fan helps then you should be ok.

Larry,<br><br>This is great info, thanks!! the
theoretical hull speed of my boat is about 7 knots and the
boat weighs 14 tons. I am looking at about two hours
of motor time between charges. I will take your
advice, get the little book, then look at the batteries.
I imagine the system I want includes a wind
generator and a couple of solar panels. As soon as I figure
out my base requirements for batteries and motor (and
how the heck to hook the whole thing to turn the
prop) I will start focusing on other aspects. I am
currently hooked into shore power daily, but would like to
design a system that can recharge itself at
sea.<br><br>Again, thanks for your help.<br><br>James

Where to start? For what it's worth, here how I
would go about it. <br><br>In order to get something
like the same horsepower as your current diesel you
will probably need a motor in the 12-15hp range. My
KTA (with whom I have no relationship, by the way,
other than being a happy customer) catalog lists two in
that range, both under $1000. Ken Koch at KTA was very
good about working with me, once I specified what I
thought I needed, in detailing out the rest of the system
and giving me a quote on the package and a very
detailed wiring diagram. He doesn't know about boats,
however, so you will have to bring your own knowledge of
your boat and your needs to the discussion<br><br>The
next big question is battery capacity. Let's say the
motor is wired for 72V. At 72V each hp will require
about 10.4A. If your normal cruising speed in this boat
requires 8hp (i.e., about 32 of those inefficient internal
combustion horses), then you will need 8X10.4 amps for each
hour of powering between charges: 83.2
amp-hours<br><br>I use Group GC2 batteries in my boat. They are 6V
245 AH and weigh 66 lbs. If you wire 12 of them
together to create a 72V battery bank, you will have 792
lbs of batteries. (You are right to be considering
the trim of the boat when you remove the tanks and
your heavy diesel. Nowadays even repowering with a new
diesel often requires adding lead ballast to a boat in
order to get the boat back down on her lines, due to
the lighter weight construction of modern diesels.)
You will also now have a 72V battery bank of 245AH.
<br><br>As a rule of thumb, you never want to draw your
battery bank down below about 80% of its rated capacity.
That means your battery bank has an effective limit of
about 200AH. At your cruising speed of 83.2A, it means
your range with this bank is about 2.5 hrs between
charges. If your boat cruises at 7kts with this power,
your range is 16.8 nautical miles.<br><br>For many
sailors who use their engines just for getting in and out
of the harbor, this would be ok. For others, it
would not. There are various means of increasing the
range, some very expensive, technical and sophisticated,
others much more plebeian. I'll stick to the
plebeian.<br><br>Higher rated batteries are one choice. Group L-16's are
rated in my catalog at 350 AH, a 43% increase in
capacity. (Because they are somewhat more specialized the
L-16's are not as cost effective as the GC2's. If you
shop you should be able to get the GC2's for around
$60 ea.; the L-16's would probably run closer to
$150.) Increasing the voltage of the system and/or the
number of the batteries is obviously another choice.
Doubling the size of the bank and using L-16's would give
you a theoretical range of about 50 mi. between
charges. It would also give you 2, 832 lbs of batteries.
At some point you confront the fact that a 14 ton
boat is one big boat and if you couple that with a
demand to go fast or far, you have defined an expensive
system. Or maybe even one that doesn't yet
exist.<br><br>Anyway, that's an illustration of some of the variables
to play with and how you might take the first steps
in envisioning what a system for your boat might
look like. BTW, Douglas Little's book "Electric
Boats", lays out many of these calculations and explains
how these systems work for the non-technical amongst
us, although his focus and experience is clearly with
smaller boats.<br><br>At some point there's a leap of
faith. Until the system is installed in your own hull
you really can only make a best guess at the exact
performance. As it turns out, for my 20' LWL, 1700 lbs launch,
I need about 1 hp to reach optimum cruising speed
and with my 245AH battery bank my range is about 45
mi.<br><br>Larry

Kirsti,<br><br>Thanks for the welcome. It makes
me happy to know there are people in the world
willing to help. I was wondering if you could give me a
run down on some of the decisions you have made for
your boat so far. What are the options you are
considering and what are their benefits/downfalls. Your
opinion is important to me. I also have decided I will
definitely go the route of electric. I read the article by
Russell O'Connell in the EBAA section of the Feb 2000 EV
News and was inspired. <br><br>Thanks,<br>James

Hi Gary,<br>Been offshore,just catching up on
news. Regard the 100 lb thrust motors, not sure of the
model you refer to but we have been using a 36 volt
Motor Guide on our 15ft. Black River Skiff. Not sure of
the claimed thurst, but this was considered one of
the highest output submursables of a few years ago,
Doug Little said around 1HP. Also we have used the so
called 3 HP Minn Kota, actual output this unit around .4
HP, on canoes up to 1/2 ton. <br>Really, we have yet
to meet any of the trolling motors which will do the
work required to move heavy displacement vessels. For
years Minn Kota confused everyone by claimed HP equiv.
outputs which were based on anything other than 1HP=746
watts!!! lol! <br><br>We once installed a 3.5 HP ( thats
HP delivered)<br>RAY Electric on a 26 ft Bolger
Speakeasy. With a 1700 lb displacement, that boat would
reach 9.5 mph top speed. We cant imagine just how many
trolling motors it would take to equal that speed, but you
would run out of transom space before you ever saw 9.5
mph! Twin Ray outboards have been used to push 50 ft
tour boats in Europe. We love trolling motors for
small boats, but they are very overmatched in heavy
disp. task. Let me know if you need futher details
regard a specfic problem.<br><br>Happy boating,<br>bud

Greetings fellow members,<br><br>It sure is a
confusing task, this e boat business. Just remember, we are
not the first generation of e boaters. <br><br>Lets
look in the "1909 ELCO Catalog" reprint for
inspiration. For a taste of the possible,consider ELCO's 63
foot Electric Cabin Yacht, consisting of " twin-screw
No.26 Electric Power Equipment, having 176 of our
special marine type of batteries. Two motors of 13 HP."
Range was listed as 110 mile at 9.5 mph. A special 1 HP
blower for venting motors increaced power capacity by a
claimed 33%. For those of us who were raised on
"automobile ages hype" those two 13 HP motors simply seem too
small!<br><br>Remember these orginial e boaters had system sizing
figured out. Of course they understood the concept of
hull speed, and did not waste energy making useless
wave. Today a spring loaded throttle, which returns to
the 60% position, and contains an electric shock
device which transmits a shock to the operator after two
minutes of full power operation may be the only education
tool capable of convincing the public to adapt correct
power management! Read Bebes "Voyaging Under Power" for
details on cruise control/ range. Another solution,
limited power loading, as found in the ELCO 14 Serenity,
works inshore. <br><br>Really, somewhere between 1 and
2 HP per ton will achieve hull speed, and then
some! If you are considering sailboat auxilury power
read "The Good Little Ship" by T Gilmer. He seeks
enough power to achieve 5 kts in a calm, make headway in
anything short of a gale. That matches the performance of
a 5 HP Nissan on my J-24 BTW. Course that Nissan
has a silly little prop. The freight canoe which we
solar powered thur the Everglades in 1994 had a power
loading of .45 HP/T, yet worked well in a demanding
route. Of course power loading must be matched to
conditions of intended use. Refer to HP/Ton to express your
answer, and you will be able to compare various
systems.<br><br>We feel the greatest effort should be be directed
toward greater prop E. Morton Rays outboard has a 12"
screw loping along at an estimated 70% E. Thats about
20% better than average.<br><br>Remembe, the early E
boaters did our homework for us. About all they lacked
was PWM control. <br><br>Happy boating,<br>bud

James,<br><br>I may have some experiences to
share. I have embarked on a similar quest three years
ago after the diesel on my 29 Ft Cal failed. Not
wanting to settle for a replacement diesel, I began
looking for an electric solution. <br><br>In the process
I have needed to and continue to learn alot, an
have organized the journey into what is titled "The
P4W Project" (Power Forward Project). The mission of
the project is to test electric propulsion
technologies, measure public reation and promote the use of new
energy technologies.<br><br>After evaluating a few DC
motors, such as series wound traction and pluse width
modulated DC motors, we selected the pluse width modulated
motor. Last March we launched and are begining to test
components that make up electric propulsion systems. The Cal
is scheduled to be on tour this summer.<br><br>The
P4W Project has been invited to exhibit at an Earth
Day Event, April 26, sponsored by the US Department
of Justice. Additional details are available via my
email at p4w@... <br><br>I to am attending JHU's
MBA program.<br><br>I'll be glad to help.<br><br>John

Welcome, welcome!<br>Read old messages, and
you'll see that I'm fumb'lin' in the dark also.<br>The
good people in this club have pointed me in various
directions, to interesting sites.<br>...The more I learn, the
more I realize how ignorant I am....<br>It's exciting,
learning, I mean!<br>Some day I WILL have an electric motor
in my boat...All I have to do now is to find out if
it should be the $12.000,- model, or the
$3.500,-...<br>Flipping a coin maybe?<br>Good luck, and I hope you'll dig
up some good info.<br>Kirsti.

I'm very new to electric power but not to boats.
I'm now living in Deale and would love to come down
sometime and check out your system. <br>I have a 35' and
I'm quite interested in the diesel electric concept
(heck, it's good enough for tugs)<br><br>As to hull
speed, If your 31' foot on deck Casey actually has has a
LWL of 28'(assume your AWL means the same as the
commonly used LWL for Lenght Water Line) then I believe
you are under estimating your design hull speed. I
believe you are closer to 7 knots.<br><br>Looking forward
to meeting you.<br><br>eric

Hi,<br><br>As a new menber and researcher by
nature, I've been reading all the old post. First off,
let say thanks for starting this 'club'. The only
thing that I would like to add concerning commercialism
is that when a member recommends a product he/she
should say if he/she has a financial interest. It might
be obvious to old members but new ones and those
just browsing might not be aware of such.<br>I've seen
at least one recommendation from someone witha clear
financial interest with wording referring to a company in
the third person when he was that company. It
probably was not intentional but it is miss
leading.<br>Keep up the great work.<br><br>Eric

All,<br><br>I would like to take out my old
diesel 4-154 (53hp) engine and install an electric
motor. The boat weighs 14 tons and I will be removing a
60 gallon fuel tank and a very heavy engine. The
problem is that I do not know where to start the process.
How do I find out what components I need for the
electric system, or what should the system even look like?
Any help or leads on where to start would be greatly
appreciated. Additionally, I am currently earning an MBA from
Johns Hopkins University. I think there are two major
reasons that the electric industry has not exploded.
First the boating industry in general does a poor job
of marketing products to the general consumer. If
car manufacturers waited for consumers to come to
them, they would be bankrupt. Second, and this is more
of a question, is the electric motor industry
attempting to generate business to business contacts
regarding electric boating possibilities? Would consumers
buy electric motors installed in new boats. Also,
what is being done to market electric drives as
replacements for older engines? I believe the electric boating
industry can increase its market share if it can convince
consumers to replace their old, worn-out, or dead engines
with electric drives. <br><br>Thanks,<br>James