Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30
I meant to say 4ft 6 ins thats what you need fully loaded for cruising and a saftey margin on the Alberg 30. It will lay down on the side and come back up with the tide without taking on any water. Did this to change a zinc in the Bahamas
Richard
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--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Eric wrote:
From: Eric
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30
To: electricboats@...
Received: Monday, November 29, 2010, 7:57 PM
?
According to the Alberg 30 site, the draft is 4'3", not exactly shoal draft but a ways from 6ft. But any full keel boat isn't going to respond well to laying on the beach, even my Bermuda 30 at 3'8".
I'm interested to hear what type of sailboat that you are considering if you're planning on beaching it. I know that there are a couple of designs from areas with outrageous tidal variances, boats with twin keels that remain standing up when the water disappears.
I guess that a centerboarder would do OK when beached, but you should have some braces on lines that can help keep the boat upright as the tide receeds. The other option is a multihull, but the weight of an electric drive with batteries will definately influence your sailing performance.
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
--- In electricboats@..., Bill Spires wrote:
>
> Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you
> install you may make the boat ineligible for one design fleet racing or you may
> just make it non-competitive. The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose
> rules about engine mods so you may be ok. For me the 6 ft draft was a deal
> killer. I am building an electric boat i can beach.
>
>
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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Alberg 30
According to the Alberg 30 site, the draft is 4'3", not exactly shoal draft but a ways from 6ft. But any full keel boat isn't going to respond well to laying on the beach, even my Bermuda 30 at 3'8".
I'm interested to hear what type of sailboat that you are considering if you're planning on beaching it. I know that there are a couple of designs from areas with outrageous tidal variances, boats with twin keels that remain standing up when the water disappears.
I guess that a centerboarder would do OK when beached, but you should have some braces on lines that can help keep the boat upright as the tide receeds. The other option is a multihull, but the weight of an electric drive with batteries will definately influence your sailing performance.
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
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Show quoted text
--- In electricboats@..., Bill Spires <spiresac@...> wrote:
Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you
install you may make the boat ineligible for one design fleet racing or you may
just make it non-competitive. The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose
rules about engine mods so you may be ok. For me the 6 ft draft was a deal
killer. I am building an electric boat i can beach.
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
As The owner of an Alberg 30 that is about to have an electric motor before next spring launch.. This boat sails too sweet to be anything else.Halifax NS to Georgetown SC with no working motor including sailing in and out of lake Tashmoo in Marthas Vineyard.
? By the way you need 5ft 6 ins. Been across the Atlantic and plan to go again. The electric will be doing the job the old diesel used to only better
Richard Couldn't help commenting when the A30 got mentioned
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--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Bill Spires wrote:
From: Bill Spires
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Received: Monday, November 29, 2010, 5:05
PM
?
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
?
Capt. Bill?
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Mark I was seeing similar results though I only saw it hit around three amps on occasion but, I was not watching the meter every second because I had to keep myself at the helm as I was sailing alone. I think if my hunch about the controller set up can be corrected I might get better results next season. Sent from on board BIANKA
http://biankablog.blogspot.com
From: "acsarfkram" <acsarfkram@...>
Sender: electricboats@...
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:41:37 +0000 To: <electricboats@...> ReplyTo: electricboats@... Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
?
Hi Mike,
What kind of numbers are you getting with regen? I have seen
+4amps (@48 volts) sailing at 6 knots. That was not consistent, The current monitor would register from 0 amps to +4 amps and more time around +2 amps than +4.
Mark
Santa Cruz
--- In electricboats@..., Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
>
> David:
> ??
> You should absolutely not give up on regen. I was able to get my regen working this past season after two years of trying. Though I was moving along at about six + knots????at the time. So I know it works but, one is not always going that speed (at least I am not). Also I think my controller may have a programming issue as when I put the throttle into the regen detent position I get a current draw of -4 amps.??I'm thinking that the controller is setup to be used as an "electric brake" and not set up for the type of regen from a propeller turning in the water. I may get around to looking at this issue at some point.?? But, my??electric propulsion system is working great for my cruising needs and I don't??depend on??regen for charging. Plus when I'm moving along at regen speeds I concentrating more on sailing than keeping an eye on the current meter. So the urgency to get in there and mess around with programming the controller is not high on my list. I'm
> a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of sailor" but, that does not mean I don't encourage others to experiment and tweak their systems if they want too.
> ??
> Capt. Mike
>
> ??
>
> --- On Mon, 11/29/10, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...>
> Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
> To: electricboats@...
> Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 1:01 AM
>
>
> ??
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark,
> I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30. ??My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified. ??Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours. ?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system. ??My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place. ?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing.... ??a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition... ?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up".... ??chuckle.... ??I won't...
>
>
> Dave K
>
>
>
>
> From: acsarfkram <acsarfkram@...>
> To: electricboats@...
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM
> Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps.
>
> Mark
> Santa Cruz
>
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
A friend of mine, James Baldwin sailed his Tridon around the world twice and lots of miles without an engine, just a sculling ore to get in and out of harbors... ? great little boat, will take you anywhere.. ? Dave K
From: Daniel Michaels
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 5:48:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Captain Bill, Removing the engine does not remove the boat from the fleet it just makes you sail it.
I am converting a Triton a sister ship.
Dan
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Bill Spires wrote:
From: Bill Spires
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 4:05 PM
?
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
?
Capt. Bill?
|
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Depending on how far the class will let you go and what type of conversion you install you may make the boat?ineligible?for one design fleet racing or you may just make it non-competitive. ?The Alberg 30 class seems to have fairly loose rules about engine mods so you may be ok.
?For me the 6 ft draft was a deal killer. ?I am building an electric boat i can beach.
From: Daniel Michaels
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 5:48:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
?
Captain Bill, Removing the engine does not remove the boat from the fleet it just makes you sail it.
I am converting a Triton a sister ship.
Dan
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Bill Spires wrote:
From: Bill Spires
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 4:05 PM
?
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
?
Capt. Bill?
|
|
[Electric Boats] Re: more regen conversation
Larry,
As the most visible "regen naysayer" here, the link that you provided completely supports my previous premise.
According to the Whoosh site "... And since we average 5-6 kts, that's over 100 amp/hrs/day ¨C for us quite possibly 150 amp/hrs/day ¨C that is available for running the radar at night, making water with offshore water quality, feeding the SSB radio, and keeping the iPod charged..." So what does this mean? They get 100-150Ah at 12V in 24 hours, that's 1200-1800Wh in 24 hours or 50-75W at 5-6kts. They do say that the harvested water power is sufficicient for house loads, a statement that I wholeheartedly agree with.
My statement is (and always has been) that regen at speeds around 5kts is not a viable source of charging for a traction battery bank. The speed is important because most displacement auxilliary sailboats between 27-32 feet (optimal for a 5kW electric drive) have a hard time hitting sustained runs above 6 kts. For this size boat, average sailing speeds of about 5.5kts is more realistic.
So let's say that you use 4kWh of energy out of your 10kWh battery bank, that's about 10-12nm at 4kts in most of our boats. How far would you have to sail using the system described by Whoosh to bring your batteries back to full charge, assuming that you are using no electrical power in the mean time? Generating 75W at 6kts, that's 12.5Wh/nm. So 4kWh will take 320nm of sailing at 6kts and will take over 53 hours. Slow down to 5kts under sail and the recharge distance is up to 400nm and will take 80 hours. If you have a 12V house load of only 2A, the recharge times and distances double.
Ignoring house loads, the ratio of drive distance (at 4kts) to regen distance (at 5kts) is about 1 to 40. Motor one mile at 4kts (15 minutes) and you need to sail 40 miles at 5kts (8 hours) to get the charge back. If you use a radio, autopilot or lights, the ratio gets worse.
So regen works, but is not as effective at recharging your traction batteries as some drive vendors would like you to believe.
Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey
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--- In electricboats@..., "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@...> wrote:
Here's to those NaySayers that say regen doesn't work. Here's some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode.
www.svsarah.com/Whoosh/WhooshPacificPrepTowGenerator.html
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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Correction: the claim was 10-12amps (presumably into 12v)---that would be nom. 120watts (instead of the 250watts I mentioned) from the combined total of water and air generators. ?
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From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 3:28 PM
To: electricboats@...
Subject: RE: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27? ? Sure regen works!? But what you offered as an example (towed gens) is not technically regen---we use ¡°regen¡± to refer to using an electric drive motor as generator when the medium (in this case, water) can back drive the motor.? The towed generators are not used to drive the boat but instead solely used to generate electricity---hence ¡°regen¡± doesn¡¯t really apply. On performance: If you read the last paragraph of the weblink you provided, ¡°Final Note:? On our last overnight run¡we were seeing a steady 10-12 amps going into the house bank with the tow generator and mast-head mounted wind generator whirling away¡Not bad for 15-18 kts of wind and 6 knots of boat speed.¡± Translation: a total of 250watts delivered from BOTH an Ampair wind generator AND an Aquair water-powered tow-generator.? He mentioned the Aquair delivers 2amps for each knot above 4kts.? So at 6kts, that¡¯s either 4 or 6amps (depending on how you read their statement).? Assuming it¡¯s 6amps, that¡¯s about 70watts from the Aquair (at 6kts) and about 180watts from the Ampair (at 15-kts of wind). How significant or valuable is 70watts of generated power at 6knots?? Depends.? For an electric, strictly power boat not expecting to anchor in 6kts of current, it¡¯s meaningless.? For an electric sailboat that could easily be driven 6knots or greater from wind, the value of capturing water power to generate electricity depends.? That 70watts will likely be delivered at about 60% efficiency.? This means that about 110watts of water power was used to deliver that 70watts.? That slows the boat down a little.? Not much, but say your boat can hit 6knots with 1500watts---that 110watts of power loss could be noticeable.? And even with 10hrs cruising at 6kts with the wind, this would be but 700wh of power delivered to the batteries.? If the wind stopped, that 700wh generated would only allow ? hr of electric cruising----it¡¯s less energy than a single charged T-105 battery carries.? Not trivial, but the numbers are important.?? Bottom line is that each sailboat owner needs to go thru the scenarios to see if it makes sense for them.? Price point ends up being key.? With an electric sailboat, paying a little extra for regen in a controller is probably justified for many.? For others, it¡¯s not. -Myles Twete, electric bargeboat ¡°The Reach Of Tide¡± ? ? ? ? From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Larry Doyle
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:20 PM
To: electricboats@...
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? ? Here¡¯s to those NaySayers that say regen doesn¡¯t work.? Here¡¯s some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode. Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30.? My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified.? Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours.?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system.? My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place.?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing....? a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition...?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up"....? chuckle....? I won't...
From: acsarfkram
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Hi Dave,
My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps.
Mark
Santa Cruz
?
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Sure regen works!? But what you offered as an example (towed gens) is not technically regen---we use ¡°regen¡± to refer to using an electric drive motor as generator when the medium (in this case, water) can back drive the motor.? The towed generators are not used to drive the boat but instead solely used to generate electricity---hence ¡°regen¡± doesn¡¯t really apply. On performance: If you read the last paragraph of the weblink you provided, ¡°Final Note:? On our last overnight run¡we were seeing a steady 10-12 amps going into the house bank with the tow generator and mast-head mounted wind generator whirling away¡Not bad for 15-18 kts of wind and 6 knots of boat speed.¡± Translation: a total of 250watts delivered from BOTH an Ampair wind generator AND an Aquair water-powered tow-generator.? He mentioned the Aquair delivers 2amps for each knot above 4kts.? So at 6kts, that¡¯s either 4 or 6amps (depending on how you read their statement).? Assuming it¡¯s 6amps, that¡¯s about 70watts from the Aquair (at 6kts) and about 180watts from the Ampair (at 15-kts of wind). How significant or valuable is 70watts of generated power at 6knots?? Depends.? For an electric, strictly power boat not expecting to anchor in 6kts of current, it¡¯s meaningless.? For an electric sailboat that could easily be driven 6knots or greater from wind, the value of capturing water power to generate electricity depends.? That 70watts will likely be delivered at about 60% efficiency.? This means that about 110watts of water power was used to deliver that 70watts.? That slows the boat down a little.? Not much, but say your boat can hit 6knots with 1500watts---that 110watts of power loss could be noticeable.? And even with 10hrs cruising at 6kts with the wind, this would be but 700wh of power delivered to the batteries.? If the wind stopped, that 700wh generated would only allow ? hr of electric cruising----it¡¯s less energy than a single charged T-105 battery carries.? Not trivial, but the numbers are important.?? Bottom line is that each sailboat owner needs to go thru the scenarios to see if it makes sense for them.? Price point ends up being key.? With an electric sailboat, paying a little extra for regen in a controller is probably justified for many.? For others, it¡¯s not. -Myles Twete, electric bargeboat ¡°The Reach Of Tide¡± ? ? ? ?
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Show quoted text
From: electricboats@... [mailto:electricboats@...] On Behalf Of Larry Doyle
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:20 PM
To: electricboats@...
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27? ? Here¡¯s to those NaySayers that say regen doesn¡¯t work.? Here¡¯s some boats that are doing it using towed gens as well as the free wheeling the prop/dc motor in regen mode. Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 ? I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30.? My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified.? Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours.?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system.? My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place.?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing....? a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition...?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up"....? chuckle....? I won't...
From: acsarfkram
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Hi Dave,
My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps.
Mark
Santa Cruz
?
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Captain Bill, Removing the engine does not remove the boat from the fleet it just makes you sail it.
I am converting a Triton a sister ship.
Dan
|
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Bill Spires wrote:
From: Bill Spires
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 4:05 PM
?
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
?
Capt. Bill?
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
I am all in favor of converting sailboats to electric and looked at an Alberg 30 myself.? I quickly realized that it would be too large and needs about 6 ft of water for the keel.? I also found out there?are several very active fleets for these boats and many sailors still using them for long voyages.? I feel?that to convert one for electric would remove one more Alberg 30 from the remaining possible fleet group and would?ask that?another boat be considered.? Of course if it's about to be chopped up and?become landfill material a conversion would be better.
?
Capt. Bill?
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Ron, have you ever gone to a "brain storm session", we used to have them at Apple all the time and you could throw out any thoughts that came to mind. ? This idea isn't so far fetched at all, it just needs room. ? I may be a little of a maniac but I have 4 sailboats from 17 to 37 on deck so it gives me a wide range of test platforms, love it... ? What does and old retired, tired inganear do? ? He works on projects... ? chuckle ? ?Who said we have to stay conventional?.... ?out of the box thoughts are accepted, at least by me.. ?chuckle... ? if ?you have a chance take a look at the Redeemed album, needed a total rebuild, it would have been a reef if anyone else would have got her... ?Dave K PS: ? if anyone is looking for a perfect platform for a slippery electric sailboat conversion that is a solid boat a friend of mine has one. ? James Baldwin has an Alberg 30 on a trailer in southeast Georgia that would be perfect, all the rigging and sails, just needs the interior and what ever auxiliary power you want to put in it.. I believe he has it on his web site ? ?
From: Ron
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 2:35:15 PM
Subject:
[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Dave, Sorry if I posted out of context, it was a flash of mechanics and no thought of restrictions of the present hull.
If it has any value at all, it might require a complete new boat design to make it practical.
Ron
--- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg wrote: > > Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline?? I only had > enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to > make some real changes in my rudder...? Room is the problem..? Dave K? > > PS...? I have some pictures in the album section. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ron > To: electricboats@...> Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40 PM > Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27 > > Dave, > You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less > sensitive to extracting a regen value. > I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can > never say things just right. > > A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power > prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having > several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least > resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when > being powered by wind or current movment. > So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to > always be on
opposite ends of where they are needed. > > Ron > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: ? ? <*> Your email settings: ? ? Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: ? ? ? ? (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ? ? electricboats-digest@... ? ? electricboats-fullfeatured@...<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ? ? electricboats-unsubscribe@...<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: ? ?
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Re: [Electric Boats] AC vs DC Motor
i too am interested in using AC ? ? ?you must have a generator I presume ... wondering how many kw? ? ? ?Wil be following this thread ?. ? ?I heard ?that 2kw produces around 1 hp' ? ?
On 2010-11-24, at 9:22 PM, akenai wrote:
?
I have been looking at the AC-13 or AC-15 AC Motors they are large enough to use on my 36' steel hull, But I have not found much info that I could understand as to compair them to DC motors other than the few DC drives that are in the higher hp range and then the cost gets to extreme. carries the set as well as
These look like a nice package and the price dosent seam to bad.
Anyone familer with these? Arby talked about AC awhile back.
Aaron
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Re: conversion 8 hp outboard powered by 5 kw generator
I only want to use the electric power for fishing at less than 3 mph and occasionally against the tide of 1 mph
my boat is 34 feet 15 tons
my preference would be 120 volts or 220 ac powered by a 6 kw gernerator
ive heard that 2 kw = 1 hp and Id be close to maxing out .. all questions needing answers
respectfully Orfish
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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Dave, Sorry if I posted out of context, it was a flash of mechanics and no thought of restrictions of the present hull.
If it has any value at all, it might require a complete new boat design to make it practical.
Ron
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline? I only had
enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to
make some real changes in my rudder... Room is the problem.. Dave K
PS... I have some pictures in the album section.
________________________________
From: Ron <rlgravel@...>
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Dave,
You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less
sensitive to extracting a regen value.
I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can
never say things just right.
A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power
prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having
several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least
resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when
being powered by wind or current movment.
So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to
always be on opposite ends of where they are needed.
Ron
|
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Question Ron, how much room do you have under your waterline? ? I only had enough room for a 14 inch prop and a 1 inch cross section nozzle, and I had to make some real changes in my rudder... ? Room is the problem.. ? Dave K ?
PS... ? I have some pictures in the album section.
From: Ron
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 1:58:40
PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Dave,
You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less sensitive to extracting a regen value.
I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can never say things just right.
A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when being powered by wind or current movment.
So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to always be on opposite ends of where they are needed.
Ron
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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Dave,
You made a great point about weight, a large mass in motion will be less sensitive to extracting a regen value.
I'll throw out an idea, but will not try to explain in too much detail, as I can never say things just right.
A two function design using the nozzle you mention, a small high speed power prop inside the nozzle and the nozzle turns as a large regen unit, having several blades on the outside diameter that can be feathered for least resistance when the power prop is in use, then feathered for maximum regen when being powered by wind or current movment.
So basiclly a two prop system. Massive torque and high speed power seem to always be on opposite ends of where they are needed.
Ron
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--- In electricboats@..., Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
I've done some experiments on different boats in reference to drag, consistently
the lighter the boat the drag affect goes up, tremendously. I started with my
old San Juan 21, a light little boat that will give you a response on anything.
My pretend propeller and nozzle would take nearly 2 knots off the speed when
dragging. On a friends boat weighing 16000, we couldn't see much at all, I
mean 1/4 to 1/2 knot and that was a guess as the wind wasn't that steady and
under power it was closer to 1/4 knot. So using that as a bench mark the boat
itself makes a big part of the equation..
Dave K
________________________________
From: Steamboat Willie <stmbtwle@...>
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 8:34:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
I think you're on the right track... Normally the prop is chosen for the best
compromise for the engine, drag, and friction. A bigger prop will give you
more thrust for a given HP and also will intercept more water flow for regen;
however it'll also create more drag under sail. How much you're willing to
accept is the kicker.
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 8:16 AM
Mike,
Won't think of giving up, just going a different route.... Starting at the
root, not the back end in the controller. The prop and the efficiency of that
system is my starting place, when I have that in my grasps at 2 knots.....(I
hear some faint chuckles out there) that's the speed that almost all sailors
can get... the beat goes on, but it starts with the prop.. Dave K
________________________________
From: Mike <biankablog@...>
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 7:59:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
David:
You should absolutely not give up on regen. I was able to get my regen working
this past season after two years of trying. Though I was moving along at about
six + knots at the time. So I know it works but, one is not always going that
speed (at least I am not). Also I think my controller may have a programming
issue as when I put the throttle into the regen detent position I get a current
draw of -4 amps. I'm thinking that the controller is setup to be used as an
"electric brake" and not set up for the type of regen from a propeller turning
in the water. I may get around to looking at this issue at some point. But,
my electric propulsion system is working great for my cruising needs and I
don't depend on regen for charging. Plus when I'm moving along at regen speeds I
concentrating more on sailing than keeping an eye on the current meter. So the
urgency to get in there and mess around with programming the controller is not
high on my list. I'm a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of sailor" but,
that does not mean I don't encourage others to experiment and tweak their
systems if they want too.
Capt. Mike
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[Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Hi Mike,
What kind of numbers are you getting with regen? I have seen
+4amps (@48 volts) sailing at 6 knots. That was not consistent, The current monitor would register from 0 amps to +4 amps and more time around +2 amps than +4.
Mark
Santa Cruz
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--- In electricboats@..., Mike <biankablog@...> wrote:
David:
??
You should absolutely not give up on regen. I was able to get my regen working this past season after two years of trying. Though I was moving along at about six + knots????at the time. So I know it works but, one is not always going that speed (at least I am not). Also I think my controller may have a programming issue as when I put the throttle into the regen detent position I get a current draw of -4 amps.??I'm thinking that the controller is setup to be used as an "electric brake" and not set up for the type of regen from a propeller turning in the water. I may get around to looking at this issue at some point.?? But, my??electric propulsion system is working great for my cruising needs and I don't??depend on??regen for charging. Plus when I'm moving along at regen speeds I concentrating more on sailing than keeping an eye on the current meter. So the urgency to get in there and mess around with programming the controller is not high on my list. I'm
a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of sailor" but, that does not mean I don't encourage others to experiment and tweak their systems if they want too.
??
Capt. Mike
??
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...> wrote:
From: Dave Kellogg <inganear1@...>
Subject: Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
To: electricboats@...
Date: Monday, November 29, 2010, 1:01 AM
??
Mark,
I hope I can get those good numbers in tests to come, have done pretty close with my ChrisCraft Capri 30. ??My drive prop is a 14X12 three blade that I've ducted with a Rice speed nozzle modified. ??Thrust is great and the preliminary numbers are close to yours. ?? For a 12000 boat that isn't as slippery as yours its pretty good, but I'm still working on the system. ??My boat needed a total rebuild inside and out so it wasn't just a put the electrics in place. ?? I've build a 5 blade 11 pitch prop from composite, I am not as concerned about push as I am about developing the best prop for regen while sailing.... ??a topic that everyone says isn't worth the effort, I disagree and will continue the project until I have things in working condition... ?? as Winston Churchill once said, "don't ever, ever, give up".... ??chuckle.... ??I won't...
Dave K
From: acsarfkram <acsarfkram@...>
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 1:03:15 PM
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: Converting an Albin 27
Hi Dave,
My boat is actually a Bruce King designed 1976 Ericson 27. And my current motoring numbers are better now that I have a larger (12x10) three blade prop; 4 knots at 20 amps.
Mark
Santa Cruz
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Re: [Electric Boats] RE: Folding Props in reverse?
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From: Steve Dolan
To: "electricboats@..."
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 6:27:36 AM
Subject: [Electric Boats] RE: Folding Props in reverse?
?
Ok I think I found it at the EMP site ?The new Solomons Tech site.
?
If you race, you are a candidate for a feathering prop. You can¡¯t race with your motor on, so you can¡¯t afford the drag created by running without the motor turning your fixed prop. Does that mean you can¡¯t buy Ikanos Technologies electric drive? Not at all. Simply use the same solution available to a racing sailor with a diesel auxiliary: a feathering prop. It works fine with Ikanos Technologies drive and can still regenerate electricity under sail. (See Regenerative Motor Sailing.) Note, however, that the blades must feather and be able to lock in the open position. A folding prop, whose blades typically will not lock open, cannot be used for regeneration. The force of the water from sailing folds the blades back instead of turning them.
The blades of a feathering prop, however, can be opened in reverse orientation by running the motor briefly backwards until the prop blades lock open. The prop and motor then freewheel and regenerate just as well as they do turning forward. Water pushing against the blades holds them open. To start motoring again, the motor control lever is switched to forward. The blades flip back to normal orientation and push the boat ahead. To sail without regenerating or any motor use, the racing helmsman places the motor in neutral. The blades feather as they are designed to do, with their orientation parallel to the water flow.
Any thoughts??
?
Steve (still thinking this AM) in Solomons MD
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Re: Folding Props in reverse?
Ok I think I found it at the EMP site
?The new Solomons Tech site.
?
If you race, you are a
candidate for a feathering prop. You can¡¯t race with your motor on, so you
can¡¯t afford the drag created by running without the motor turning your fixed
prop. Does that mean you can¡¯t buy Ikanos Technologies electric drive? Not at
all. Simply use the same solution available to a racing sailor with a diesel
auxiliary: a feathering prop. It works fine with Ikanos Technologies drive and
can still regenerate electricity under sail. (See Regenerative Motor Sailing.)
Note, however, that the blades must feather and be able to lock in the open
position. A folding prop, whose blades typically will not lock open, cannot be
used for regeneration. The force of the water from sailing folds the blades
back instead of turning them.
The blades of a
feathering prop, however, can be opened in reverse orientation by running the
motor briefly backwards until the prop blades lock open. The prop and motor
then freewheel and regenerate just as well as they do turning forward. Water
pushing against the blades holds them open. To start motoring again, the motor
control lever is switched to forward. The blades flip back to normal
orientation and push the boat ahead. To sail without regenerating or any motor
use, the racing helmsman places the motor in neutral. The blades feather as
they are designed to do, with their orientation parallel to the water flow.
Any thoughts??
?
Steve (still thinking this AM) in Solomons
MD
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