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Re: [Electric Boats] Re: Hunter 27 has electric option

David Goldsmith
 



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
?

Hmmm. I just checked the Hunter website and it says the Hunter 27 waterline length is 23'7". But that's just a minor detail... It doesn't change the general results much.

Ah, yep I see. I was going on the numbers published by Sail in their little write up, they've got the hull length that Hunter lists as the LWL and don't make mention of the LWL from the Hunter spec. Either way, its still got a pretty good water line for its LOA, of course all that changes once you start heeling or loading it down. I seem to remember a few years ago them selling a Hunter 26 that was the same boat but with an outboard instead of an inboard and some pretension to trailering, but I may be fuzzy on that. I do remember sailing our old '77 27 into St. Augustine coming back from the Bahamas and one of the brand new Hunter 27s sailing by us and asking us where we'd been (the Q flag was up and we had clearly been 'out there' for a while.)
?


But we're obviously on the same page. BTW, the Elco drive certainly looks sturdy, I wonder how much that unit weighs. There's a picture on the ELCO 27e brochure that is linked to the Hunter 27 spec page on the Hunter US website.

It looks like a serious little drive doesn't it! I'd really like to get a look inside that case.

David
?

Eric



--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points
> however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as
> 25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's
> displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at
> 10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older
> Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer
> than a roomy cruiser.
>
> Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a
> lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries,
> and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be
> quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)
>
> I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco
> would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got
> extensive experience and complete control over every component so they
> should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone
> on the list buys one, any takers?
>
> David
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that
> > battery bank.
> >
> > 214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
> > 80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable...

> >
> > So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from
> > Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size....

> >
> > Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and
> > with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only
> > effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces.
> > Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and
> > efficiency report.
> >
> > Fair winds,
> > Eric
> > Marina del Rey, CA
> >
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Bill,

So you were getting about 60 watts at 4 or 5 knots? That's right back where this conversation started.... I find it much more effective to talk about watts instead of amps in this kind of discussion due to the varied voltages that are used by different boats.

But I think that you're on the right track. By using a dedicated water powered generator, that entire component can be optimized for extracting power from the water flowing by at the speeds that you expect to achieve regularly. An additional benefit is, like you said, you don't have to take the performance hit unless you choose to harvest power.

The typical problem with using an electric drive for regen is that a prop that is optimized for providing thrust will not be as efficient for collecting energy and vice versa.

I noticed that Robbie stated that he uses 2 dedicated Aquair units rather than the drive unit regen typically discussed here, the Aquairs obviously don't function as drives too. And the same performance data keeps coming up. From the Aquair website "The reason for the choice is that when sailing downwind at 6 knots, the Aquair 100 Water Drive generates approx. 5 amps continuous charge." So they quote 60 watts (5A x 12V) from 6 knots of boat speed. Their chart also shows less than 25 watts from 4 knots of boat speed. That works out to less than 0.5A charging for my 48V boat, or 1 solid week of continuous sailing to charge my 8kWh battery bank from 50% discharged. That assumes no other electrical loads along the way.

So I'm back to my original premise. Regen will not provide any significant charging to a traction battery bank for most conversions being discussed here. Regen or water generators can provide enough to cover most house loads but not much more.

I would personally love to be proven wrong on this premise, but I'm still waiting....

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steamboat Willie <stmbtwle@...> wrote:

Eric I'd look into a taffrail generator like that sold by Hamilton Ferris.?? I finally gave mine away after giving up sailing, but it would put out a pretty reliable 4-5 amps at 4-5 knots on my 26' Pearson monohull.?? It didn't weigh much and would certainly keep ahead of my electrical loads.???? I even used it when I was motoring to supplement the rather puny outboard alternator.????

Nice thing about the contraption is I could bring it aboard when I was more interested in speed than generating...?? Only problem I had with it was it seemed to have an affinity for seaweed...

Bill
Re: New guy Questions

Glenn Dennis
 

Eric and all

I set the budget based on what it would cost me to repower with a new/old stock diesel (Volvo MD2001 9 Hp, 1 Cyl). I currently have a non-working inboard gas with feathering prop (Albin Combi drive) that is too small to work with anything else. I use a 9.9 outboard mounted on the transom, it works for the most part but if there is over 2 or 3 ft swell the prop tends to come out of the water and you can't charge the house batteries. Most of my motoring is just out and in to the Club, less than 10 min @ 3 or 4 Kts, each way most days. Top speed is not a real concern 5 or 5.5 kts would be more than enough, but would I have to have longer range for when you have to get back. I would like 20 Nm @ 4kts. I have had the boat two years now and mostly just day sail with a couple of weekend trips every now and then, but I want to do longer trips. Also I sail solo often.

With either option I will need Prop, shaft, coupling, exhaust, etc. Because of design the largest prop I could fit would be 13 inches, maybe 14 if I could get it back far enough, I was considering a 13 X 13 pitch. As for space the Vega is blessed/cursed with 23" wide X 48" long X 16" high void behind the current engine occupied by only an exhaust pipe. Also it's easy to make wider, I could fit 4 X 8d batteries no problem. Weight however would be another issue at 4 x 66 kg she may have a bow up attitude. I could try to keep them as for forward as possible may making a step cover for one. 6 volt GC batteries would be easier to distribute.

"As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed."

That's why I'm here, trying to learn as much as possible before I comitt to the project. Oh and it would be nice to have a quiet "green" boat.


Glenn

--- In electricboats@..., "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:

Glenn,

I'm interested in your budget. How much would a diesel re-power cost for your boat? Are you considering electric primarily because you think that it is a cheaper alternative to ICE?

You should seriously think about the compromises that you're signing up for. A 500 lb flooded or AGM battery bank will drive your boat about as far as 0.75 gallons of diesel. The Vega is a small boat, do you have room for eight 6V golf cart batteries or four 4D batteries?

A new Beta twin diesel weighs about 200 pounds. A decent sized electric drive will weigh 200+ lbs more than a diesel system, including a full 8 gallon fuel tank, that is sized for your boat.

How long have you been sailing your boat? How much fuel do you usually burn over the course of your regular trip? When I realized that I rarely burned one whole gallon per trip in my boat, electric drive became more feasible. I'll spend at least 80% of what I would have spent for a diesel re-power that I did myself, so I'm not doing it to save money.

As long as you approach this project with your eyes open to what it really means, then you shouldn't be disappointed. i've seen a number of newly converted boats that obviously did not meet their owner's expectations.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA


--- In electricboats@..., "vega1184" <vega1184@> wrote:

I need to repower my 27' sailboat was looking at a diesel but electric has interested me. I have a strong mechanical background and some electrical experience mostly automotive and a little residential, that being said I can safety repair most anything; it's designing where I may need some help. I have a very healthy respect for electricity and always ensure cables are properly terminated, sealed and secured, all grounds are in place and all batteries secured.
First off budget is an issue I don't want to go over $4K, from prop to batteries, is this possible? Rough guess shaft, prop, bearings, etc $1K. Kit something like Thunderstruck, Sevcon Brushless Sailboat Kit - 8.5KW () $1.5K. Wiring, motor mount, belt drive reduction, misc bits $0.5K. That leaves $1K for batteries and chargers, not much I know, but I could add more later. I would thinks 48 volt would be better (at least safer), but amps are starting to get high. Batteries, I guess I would have to go with AGM, have some space, would love LiFePO4 but out of my buget right now. Any one have any suggestions?

Boat Specs
1971 Albin Vega
LOA 27'
LWL 23'
Beam 8' at WL 7'
Displ average 6500 Lbs

Glenn
Re: Hunter 27 has electric option

 

Hmmm. I just checked the Hunter website and it says the Hunter 27 waterline length is 23'7". But that's just a minor detail... It doesn't change the general results much.

But we're obviously on the same page. BTW, the Elco drive certainly looks sturdy, I wonder how much that unit weighs. There's a picture on the ELCO 27e brochure that is linked to the Hunter 27 spec page on the Hunter US website.

Eric

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:

I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points
however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as
25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's
displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at
10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older
Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer
than a roomy cruiser.

Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a
lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries,
and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be
quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)

I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco
would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got
extensive experience and complete control over every component so they
should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone
on the list buys one, any takers?

David

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:



David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that
battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable...

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from
Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size....

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and
with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only
effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces.
Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and
efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA
Re: [Electric Boats] ELCO

Charlie Girsch
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I've been in touch with the former owner of ELCO and he offers the following information:

The best information and best recommendation I can?pass on is to have people call Holden Hayes at Spincraft boats.? Holden has picked up all the service and sales to the Elco customers.? He is the best in the business and his contact information is listed below.
?
Mr. G. Holden Hayes
Spincraft Electric Boats
2595 Blackwell Street, Unit 108
Ottawa, Canada K1B 4E4
800.313.7913

- charlie g -



On 2010-11-23 07:15, David Hughes wrote:
?

Elco is located here on the east coast, NY I think, and is one of the oldest companies dedicated to electric boating. However, they have gone through many ownership changes and challenges with one very recently. I tried contacting them this past year for my project and after several phone calls and the total lack of information, I gave up. I do hope they have figured it out and got beyond their troubles.

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith wrote:
>
> I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
> article in Sail:
>
>
>
> I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
> this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
> boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
> batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
> and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
> like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
> reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
> 20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
> knots' type of situation.
>
> I'll note that the motor looks to be a very good system, completely
> enclosed, and possibly direct drive, its not clear if there is any gear
> reduction done in the case. Anyone familiar with Elco systems? The only
> concern I'd have is that it runs on 72V which is beyond the nominal 48V at
> which more safety concerns have to be addressed. I'm more comfortable with
> 48V but a professionally designed and installed system should be fine since
> they know what they're doing and I'm just tinkering.
>
> I didn't see any estimate on cost, I would assume it costs more than the
> standard diesel, but it really shouldn't be that much more.
>
> Sometimes Hunter is given a hard time for being one of the big-three of
> sailboats and producing a sort of mainstream product where price and quality
> have an inverse relationship. I owned a 1977 Hunter 27, the really tubby one
> designed by John Cherubini, and it was really a pretty good boat for what it
> was, built like a tank too. They've changed a lot since then of course. I
> took a tour of the factory a few years ago and was pretty impressed. They
> weren't quite the modern marvel the new Beneteau factories are but it was
> clean and well organized and there was still a lot of hand work going into
> assembling the interior components and installing the systems.
>
> This is the type of electric propulsion I think will be first to go
> mainstream, in boats that are really a little on the small side for a diesel
> and a little on the big size for an outboard, where low maintenance is more
> important than range under power. I really hope the other builders follow
> suit. As for the hobbyist, this is exactly the type of system that many of
> us are trying to build for our own boats of about this size and the more
> Hunter, Catalina, and Beneteau start offering these as options the better
> available and easier they will be for us to implement too.
>
> Very cool, thumbs up!
>
> David
>
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Todd wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I just saw that the Hunter 27 has an electric drive option from a company
> > named Elco. Anyone have more info on this?
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: [Electric Boats] Hunter 27 has electric option

David Goldsmith
 

I love it when you lay it out for us. I'd like to throw in a few points however. The Catalina 30 actually has a shorter waterline, its listed as 25', while the Hunter 27 has a full 27' waterline and the Hunter's displacement is listed as about 7,600 lbs, while the Catalina weighs in at 10,200. The current Hunter 27 really isn't in the same class as the older Hunters of that length or the Catalinas. Its more of a stretched 25 footer than a roomy cruiser.

Those other numbers won't dramatically affect what usually works out to a lot of factors like how the boat is loaded, the condition of the batteries, and the weather and sea conditions. I wouldn't put it past them to be quoting range and speed that assume you're sailing down hill:)

I would assume, but take this with a grain of salt, that Hunter and Elco would have this set up very well optimized and worked out. They've both got extensive experience and complete control over every component so they should be able to make a good show of things. We'll know as soon as someone on the list buys one, any takers?

David


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric <ewdysar@...> wrote:
?

David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable

Using a Peukerts exponent of 1.15 for AGM to compensate for high amp draws, I backed into the constant load that would let the batteries last 3.3 hours (6kts x 3.3 hrs = 20nm)

The 3.3 hours rate to 80% depth of discharge is 42A @ 72V or 3024W. So the question becomes whether or not the Hunter 27e can cruise at 6kts while only using 3kW (4hp) of power. Given the observed data from similar boats, that might be optimistic. A Catalina 30 (longer waterline) conversion that is pretty well documented uses 3.2kW (4.2hp) to hit 5kts and 6 kts takes about 6kW (8hp).

So lets slow it down, just a little. The 4 hour rate (5kts x 4 hrs = 20nm) for this battery pack to 80% DoD is 36A @ 72V or 2592W. That looks like were getting closer with 2.6kW (3.4hp) to run at 5kts.

One step down, lets look at 4.5kts. The 4.45 hour rate (4.5kts x 4.45 hrs = 20nm) to 80% DoD is 32.5A @ 72V or 2340W. Now we're looking at 2.3kW (3.1hp) to drive the boat at 4.5kts and that rate sounds a lot like the numbers that various owners have reported in this group.

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size.

If we use the rule of thumb that doubling the power will increase boat speed by 1.5kts, then 6 kts will take 4.7kW (6.2hp) and the batteries will be 80% discharged in 2 hours or 12nm. Again, this sounds a little optimistic to me, but somewhat believable). Hull speed on this boat works out to be between 6 and 6.5kts.

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces. Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

I personally haven't found quick reviews in the glossy sail magazines to be the most technically reliable sources. This might be one of those marketing things, saying the boat can hit 6kts and has a range of 20nm doesn't necessarily mean that it can go 20nm at 6kts. :)



--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
> article in Sail:
>
>
>
> I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
> this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
> boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
> batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
> and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
> like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
> reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
> 20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
> knots' type of situation....

>
>
> Very cool, thumbs up!
>
> David
>


Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Eric I'd look into a taffrail generator like that sold by Hamilton Ferris.? I finally gave mine away after giving up sailing, but it would put out a pretty reliable 4-5 amps at 4-5 knots on my 26' Pearson monohull.? It didn't weigh much and would certainly keep ahead of my electrical loads.?? I even used it when I was motoring to supplement the rather puny outboard alternator.??

Nice thing about the contraption is I could bring it aboard when I was more interested in speed than generating...? Only problem I had with it was it seemed to have an affinity for seaweed...

Bill


--- On Wed, 11/24/10, Eric wrote:

From: Eric
Subject: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen
To: electricboats@...
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 4:35 PM

?

Steve,

I completely agree with you. My drive system is regen capable and I certainly won't disable that feature, any "free" power is welcome on my boat. But I will not count on any significant contribution to my charge from regen, it will be a present from Poseidon. Unfortunately, with my boat (a Herrschoff H-28 knockoff), 5kts is just about all I can count on, a 120 mile day would be stretching the boundaries. But like you have stated, 100W x 24 hours will deliver 2.4kWh a day and that will easily cover all but the most wasteful house loads. Now I just hope I can get 100W out of my drive....

On the trimaran, the outboard comes out of the water less than a minute after being shut down, so the only thing that I'm suffering is the weight. My offshore racing org's safety requirements is "Sufficient power and fuel for the boat to achieve a speed equal to the square root of her waterline (5kts for me), for a distance of 30 nautical miles in flat water without a headwind." 3 gallons of gas is technically enough, although I generally carry between 4 and 6 gallons for long races (that extra 20 pounds is worth my peace of mind). Electric is not yet feasible to meet this requirement.

BTW, in the last 3 years, I've spent more on new sails for the trimaran than my entire drive conversion with LiFePO4 batteries in the ketch. Don't let my wife find out.... :)

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan wrote:
>
> Eric,
> I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)
>
> Steve in Solomons
>
>
> I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.
>
> Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
>
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Steve,

I completely agree with you. My drive system is regen capable and I certainly won't disable that feature, any "free" power is welcome on my boat. But I will not count on any significant contribution to my charge from regen, it will be a present from Poseidon. Unfortunately, with my boat (a Herrschoff H-28 knockoff), 5kts is just about all I can count on, a 120 mile day would be stretching the boundaries. But like you have stated, 100W x 24 hours will deliver 2.4kWh a day and that will easily cover all but the most wasteful house loads. Now I just hope I can get 100W out of my drive....

On the trimaran, the outboard comes out of the water less than a minute after being shut down, so the only thing that I'm suffering is the weight. My offshore racing org's safety requirements is "Sufficient power and fuel for the boat to achieve a speed equal to the square root of her waterline (5kts for me), for a distance of 30 nautical miles in flat water without a headwind." 3 gallons of gas is technically enough, although I generally carry between 4 and 6 gallons for long races (that extra 20 pounds is worth my peace of mind). Electric is not yet feasible to meet this requirement.

BTW, in the last 3 years, I've spent more on new sails for the trimaran than my entire drive conversion with LiFePO4 batteries in the ketch. Don't let my wife find out.... :)

Fair winds,
Eric

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Paul,
I forgot about the prop design and you are correct. The pitch is more and 3 blades is a normal design. It's not a switch, you're in neutral or in my case a slight bump on. It's more again dependent on the size of the boat as to how much drag you incur. Heck I have 2 of them down there! Anything is going to incur drag but how much depends on a number of factors. A fast, light boat is going to be much more susceptible to anything hanging down below on a fixed installation. There are several manufactures with retractable props for smaller boats out there and I would probably be looking at that for light air. But us big nasty CondoCats are not so susceptible to anything hanging down. We might loose a 1/2 knot or 1 knot but we don't care sitting in the back drinking coolaid and burning the dogs! :o)

Steve in Solomons MD


Steve,

For me at least -- and this may be because I don't fully understand the technology -- the issue is that regen isn't just a switch you flip or an option you order with the controller...it's also about selecting a prop that can regen efficiently. Such a prop will incur worse drag whether it is re-gen'ing or not, correct?

My boat has a two-blade prop which hides in the aperture when vertical (or pretends to, at least). I feel like this makes a difference when sailing, though I don't have a knotmeter so I can't back that up with data. If I keep this prop (or one similar), my understanding is that regen performance will be even worse than otherwise.

In other words, you commit to the drag when you affix the prop, and you can't take it off in light air when you can't stand the drag.

Is this understanding correct?

Paul
--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Electric Boats] Hunter 27 has electric option

 

David,

I ran some quick numbers to see if 20 miles at 6kts is reasonable from that battery bank.

214Ah @ 72V = 15.4kWh
80% depth of discharge = 12.3kWh usable

Using a Peukerts exponent of 1.15 for AGM to compensate for high amp draws, I backed into the constant load that would let the batteries last 3.3 hours (6kts x 3.3 hrs = 20nm)

The 3.3 hours rate to 80% depth of discharge is 42A @ 72V or 3024W. So the question becomes whether or not the Hunter 27e can cruise at 6kts while only using 3kW (4hp) of power. Given the observed data from similar boats, that might be optimistic. A Catalina 30 (longer waterline) conversion that is pretty well documented uses 3.2kW (4.2hp) to hit 5kts and 6 kts takes about 6kW (8hp).

So lets slow it down, just a little. The 4 hour rate (5kts x 4 hrs = 20nm) for this battery pack to 80% DoD is 36A @ 72V or 2592W. That looks like were getting closer with 2.6kW (3.4hp) to run at 5kts.

One step down, lets look at 4.5kts. The 4.45 hour rate (4.5kts x 4.45 hrs = 20nm) to 80% DoD is 32.5A @ 72V or 2340W. Now we're looking at 2.3kW (3.1hp) to drive the boat at 4.5kts and that rate sounds a lot like the numbers that various owners have reported in this group.

So I would believe 20nm @ 4.5kts from specific info that you posted from Hunter. That is very good performance from an electric conversion of this size.

If we use the rule of thumb that doubling the power will increase boat speed by 1.5kts, then 6 kts will take 4.7kW (6.2hp) and the batteries will be 80% discharged in 2 hours or 12nm. Again, this sounds a little optimistic to me, but somewhat believable). Hull speed on this boat works out to be between 6 and 6.5kts.

Of course, these are all estimates based on experience collected here and with other electric conversions. Hunter's results may vary, the only effective way to find out is to put one of their 27e's through its paces. Let's hope that someone here buys one and gives a detailed performance and efficiency report.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

I personally haven't found quick reviews in the glossy sail magazines to be the most technically reliable sources. This might be one of those marketing things, saying the boat can hit 6kts and has a range of 20nm doesn't necessarily mean that it can go 20nm at 6kts. :)

--- In electricboats@..., David Goldsmith <suntreader@...> wrote:

I don't have any more info than is available from Hunter or from a brief
article in Sail:



I know I gave that last boat a hard time, so let me make it up by saying
this is a pretty sweet little set up. Elco is a very good name in electric
boats, I'd love to have their systems and expertise designing my set up. The
batteries are six 210amp/hr AGMs (4d?), which is a good compromise on cost
and easy of maintenance. This is just the right sized boat to have a system
like this, small enough that the motor and battery requirements are
reasonable, but big enough it can handle the weight and room. Their claimed
20 miles at 6 knots sounds reasonable and not like an 'ideal conditions at 2
knots' type of situation....


Very cool, thumbs up!

David
[Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Steve,

For me at least -- and this may be because I don't fully understand the technology -- the issue is that regen isn't just a switch you flip or an option you order with the controller...it's also about selecting a prop that can regen efficiently. Such a prop will incur worse drag whether it is re-gen'ing or not, correct?

My boat has a two-blade prop which hides in the aperture when vertical (or pretends to, at least). I feel like this makes a difference when sailing, though I don't have a knotmeter so I can't back that up with data. If I keep this prop (or one similar), my understanding is that regen performance will be even worse than otherwise.

In other words, you commit to the drag when you affix the prop, and you can't take it off in light air when you can't stand the drag.

Is this understanding correct?

Paul

--- In electricboats@..., Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: feasible regen

 

Eric,
I would suggest that the regen may not be practical on a 2 or 3 hour 5 knot sail but what if you sail for a distance and use power for the stereo or a few gauges? What if the total usage of power during an overnight run equaled your regeneration rate? "Anything that is free is for me" so any power I can get is good thing. It may not be able to fully charge your batteries but it's better than nothing unless the drag exceeds the benefit. What if you're on the back of a 20 foot wave heading down and can get 6 amps (or more) all the way down and half the way up the next wave? You could run your motors at 2 knots and gain 50 miles in a 24 hour period at no cost. I didn't do the math but should be close. Anyway even a little regen is better than no regen. But then again the majority of boats here are smaller and don't travel as far. I think if I had a smaller boat and it was free or included in the package I would think of it as a plus. Now if I had a tri (I do have a MR2 spyder) for nothing but speed the weight would definitely be a consideration. I'm surprised you don't just have a couple of paddles! You could probably still get up to 5 knots :o)

Steve in Solomons


I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.
[Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

 

Eric --

I read your comments as realistic, not negative. I always appreciate your contributions here because they are objective and well-grounded. I also like how you run the numbers to ground.

That said, I think the cost comparison is difficult. From what I can tell, you can put a diesel in for what the electric conversion will cost, but the diesel would have to be used. A new diesel would cost about double what the electric conversion would cost.

Maybe the used diesel will outlast the new electric installation, I don't know; but it does seem like apples and oranges, don't you think?

Paul

--- In electricboats@..., "Eric" <ewdysar@...> wrote:

Robbie,

You make a good point. I'll have to remind the guy badmouthing electric conversions on the Cheoy Lee board that spent 6 months and more than $6000 converting his sailboat that doesn't perform the way that the electric drive vendor led him to believe. He's now trying to sell his boat for what he paid before the conversion, and he's not getting any takers.

There have been a number of people that have come here asking about converting ski boats and 50'+ houseboats to pure electric. I believe that it is our responsibility to give them enough real information (not marketing hype) so that they can make their own choices. But perhaps I shouldn't be so negative, at least we'll have more slightly used components available at lower costs for our own projects after their projects fail....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., hob tonn <marlborosounds@> wrote:

G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do
just that, without people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things....

So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of
them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your
boating fun.

Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

?

David,

?

Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems.

Gee wiz, I¡¯m greener than I thought! :o)

?


Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.

Hey thanks, I might be up there on the 410¡¯s but I learn something every time I¡¯m on Electra Glide. I¡¯ve actually stayed in close contact with one of the Field Techs for Solomons (now Electric Marine Propulsion ? ). We do exchange info and ideas.

??


?The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.

I¡¯m again guessing but I would bet that the owners were looking at the ¡°Charter to Own¡± deals and were driven by the sales pitch of ¡°less maintenance costs¡± when they purchased. I don¡¯t know if many know about the charter industry down there but 5 to 6 years is the longest most of those companies want a boat in service do to ¡°ware and tare¡±. After that period they want newer boats. At $20k a week you can¡¯t blame the renter. I don¡¯t know if any boats were directly bought by the leasing companies. ???

?

?

By the way Lagoon has a 470 their electrifying through Tether¡¯s company Emotions and Dave has done 2 500¡¯s. I first met Dave in Solomons Md on board Electra Glide last year along with Nigel Calder. They wanted to see what improvements had been made over the original design as well as see what issues I had. I mostly had concerns about the lack of monitoring of the batteries as well as the genset that he didn¡¯t really have anything to do with and has since been fixed with 2 $5 parts and been running like a top (knock on wood). The other projects they are working on is a 60¡¯ TAG boat (see on their site) ¡°Tang¡± and through a grant some HYMAR projects which includes an EMM (energy management system) which they seem to be still having some problems with. KISS!

?

I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility?

?

I think your talking about the larger cats with fly bridges? Those things are monsters and are a pain to see from. The main sails are very high off the deck and I¡¯m sure having been properly designed to take the raised pitching point they command but they look top heavy. Now the 410 is more conventional and though they have a rag top they are manageable from above all though a hard top down the road is in the plans for us. Housing the main I have an Electric winch but haven¡¯t used it except for the top 2 feet. I need some exercise! Dowsing is easy, release the halyard and it falls into the stack pack. Setting is all from the rear helm and starboard winches¡¯ and the Admiral (all 100lbs) has no issues with it. Overall other than docking this boat (it gets easier every time) it¡¯s stress free.

?

That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing.
I mentioned the EMS systems and I think that¡¯s what your referring to on Calder¡¯s boat along with the Power Distribution Systems he¡¯s got on board. ?

?

Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.

?

I¡¯m no expert or heavy into electrics but I don¡¯t feel like the system is all that complicated. Now there is no way I¡¯m going to rebuild a controller or fix an electric motor but really what else is there? Most failures are wiring related. I do have a Main Distribution Box but inside that is mostly a couple of buss bars, breakers, and some big wires. (I tend to over simplify) but if you stare at it long enough it falls into place. It took me the longest time to comprehend the fact that the batteries, generator, motors and Inverter could all run to the same buss bars without burning up or how the distribution of power would work between the batteries and genset. As with anything complicated you just break it down into smaller pieces. ??


Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.

I wouldn¡¯t want to depend on my sailing skills to bring my boat into a dock on sails alone under ¡°ruff¡± conditions. Something is going to get broken. Running a single engine for propulsion leaves you with no means to ¡°get out of trouble¡± accept the sails (well the anchor to). On a Big boat you want to have options. I agree on the ¡°spills¡±. Part of the systems on a Blue Water boat have to be redundant. If something fails you want to have a plan ¡°B¡± or even a plan ¡°C¡±. Having 2 hulls makes a dual system the way to go. God what a dream it is to be able to spin on a dime.

?

I attached a couple of pictures to see the diagram of the power flow as well as a side view of the boat. I would be happy to answer any other questions.

?

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone,

?

Steve in Solomons MD


?


Steve in Solomons MD



[Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

 

Robbie,

You make a good point. I'll have to remind the guy badmouthing electric conversions on the Cheoy Lee board that spent 6 months and more than $6000 converting his sailboat that doesn't perform the way that the electric drive vendor led him to believe. He's now trying to sell his boat for what he paid before the conversion, and he's not getting any takers.

There have been a number of people that have come here asking about converting ski boats and 50'+ houseboats to pure electric. I believe that it is our responsibility to give them enough real information (not marketing hype) so that they can make their own choices. But perhaps I shouldn't be so negative, at least we'll have more slightly used components available at lower costs for our own projects after their projects fail....

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., hob tonn <marlborosounds@...> wrote:

G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do
just that, without people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things....

So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of
them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your
boating fun.

Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
Re: feasible regen

 

Todd,

A faster boat would be great, but if we're talking about 28'-32' displacement sailboats, breaking 6 knots gets more difficult with 1/4 ton of batteries on board. For bigger boats, that speed threshold is easier to hit, but bigger boats take bigger drives, and so on...

The best success stories that I have heard about regen is in the 40'+ catamarans that can cruise at 7 or 8kts even with the extra weight related to the electric system(s).

So how fast do you regularly sail in your boat today?

I know that my 30' ketch has only touched 6kts a couple of times in over 10 years. 5kts takes a solid breeze for my old boat. So I don't expect much from regen from my electric drive, even when headed offshore to our local islands.

Alternatively, my 27' trimaran has hit 6kts boat speed in only 5kts true wind. If I converted that boat to electric, that kind of performance would no longer be possible. I'm not willing to sacrifice my good runs at 15kts+ boat speed to go electric. The 9.8hp outboard is auxilliary power that works for me.

We've got a lot of options and we each get to figure out what will work best for the way that we actually use our boats. Electric is a good answer for some use cases and horrible for some other use cases. Learning the difference before the considerable investment of time and money is why I'm a member of this group.

Fair winds,
Eric
Marina del Rey, CA

--- In electricboats@..., "Todd" <toddbates99@...> wrote:

Regen for short trips is probably not viable. That said it might be nice for longer trips. Or perhaps with larger faster boats it might be more viable. This article gives a nice synopsis ". I think regen may be like water makers, you have to be going for longer trips to make sense. I like Capt. Mikes idea of mutual backups. Maybe solar, regen, and generator with a faster boat.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion

hob tonn
 

G'day Todd,
I have two Aquair units both are mounted tho I only use one at a time, but I can toss both props into the water if I have strong enough wind to benifit the drag. The only problems I have seen with others who have used them are they forget about them and will somehow get them fowled up in the props.
?
Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave

Von: Todd
An: electricboats@...
Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 25. November 2010, 4:15:36 Uhr
Betreff: [Electric Boats] Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion

?

Regen for short trips is probably not viable. That said it might be nice for longer trips. Or perhaps with larger faster boats it might be more viable. This article gives a nice synopsis "". I think regen may be like water makers, you have to be going for longer trips to make sense. I like Capt. Mikes idea of mutual backups. Maybe solar, regen, and generator with a faster boat.
Re: converting a 42 foot sloop to electric propulsion

 

Regen for short trips is probably not viable. That said it might be nice for longer trips. Or perhaps with larger faster boats it might be more viable. This article gives a nice synopsis ". I think regen may be like water makers, you have to be going for longer trips to make sense. I like Capt. Mikes idea of mutual backups. Maybe solar, regen, and generator with a faster boat.
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

Aaron Williams
 

Robbie
?
What are you using for an electric motor system? any details boat displacement, battery size, motor size?
Aaron

From: hob tonn
To: electricboats@...
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 7:26:10 AM
Subject: AW: [Electric Boats] Re: New guy Questions

?

G'day People.
I hope that this will not turn up in everyones spam box.
I believe that if people wish to change to electric power then they should do just that, without
people trying to talk them out of it or showing the negative side of things.
I have found in the past that what didnt work for other worked perfect for me and visa versa.
Some speak of regen, yes If your a weekend sailor and only go out for two hours a day or thats the max
distance that you sail, yes Regen is out. But if you just motor out of a slip you can leave and not use 2% of your? battery bank aswell , depending on how big your marina is.
?
I have electric on my 42' ketch, I wouldnt trade it for a zillion desiel or gas engines. Im not a weekend sailor.
I will cross again the pacific in the boat. As we all should remember sail boats have no engines. Only a secondary being said that the Wind and Sails are your Primary. Are we sailboats or are we power boats?
?
Do we wish to sail or do we wish to run the engine at 5knts? and play the part. I kno in case of emergencies
engines are a delight. But what did people do 55 years ago? Not even a VHF to cry into or a SSB.? And
Cell Phones were only a reality in a Dick Tracy Show.
?
People if you wish to have electric get electric. What didnt work for me doesnt mean it will not work for you.
Maybe you will be the one who revolutionizes batteries or a new style of electric motor. I love my electric boat.
And when people are in the doldrums? afraid to run thier desiel or gas engines due to the fact they wish to save the petro to motor in to the islands. I can move along at a few knts per hour with no wind all day long. even if its 1 knot per hour under power and direction, thats 24 knots further than most will be and some times even more depending on what direction they are drifting. Also moving at 1knot per hour a person could run many hours befor even using up 50% of a 48vt bank.
?
So all the Killjoy's out there, Let the people be who they are and maybe one of them will invent something that you will purchase in a few years for your boating fun.
?
Cheers
Robbie
S/V Qwave
?
?
Re: [Electric Boats] Re: High end electric/diesel yacht

David Goldsmith
 



On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Steve Dolan <sdolan@...> wrote:
?

I'm not knowledgeable on the "up stream" power costs but I haven't heard anything about Nuclear Power production and its efficiency so since I have one just up the street in Calvert County Maryland I may have to run by (I always wanted to visit it anyway) and see if they have any numbers.


Ideological issues aside, nuclear is an excellent option these days for power generation. I don't know about your local plant which is without a doubt not the latest and greatest but still, if you're charging from that source you can be pretty sure there aren't any particulate or carbon equivalent emission problems.
?
The electric power from my local utility is confirmed to be more than 20% supplied by renewable sources. The largest coal powered plant within 300 miles was decommisioned in 2005. The bulk of our local power generation is from natural gas, so I would say that the electricity in my area is considerably cleaner than power from IC engines. In our area, electricity is not used much for heating anything, water, cooking and area heating is usually natural gas because it is more efficient (cheaper) overall, it just happens to be cleaner too.

Moving on to the trickle down process, I would use the Solomon/Lagoon joint venture as an example. The handful of charter catamarans that were put into service provided enough feedback from regular users, that Solomon re-engineered the systems that they sell to people like you or me. Those charter cats were pulled from service and "new and improved" versions were released later. (I believe that one of the early Lagoons is owned by someone in this group). The real world experience gained from less than a dozen of these large boats has influenced many later ventures, I would bet that the Hunter engineers are very aware of what worked there and what didn't.
----------------------------------------------------------
Yup it's me, the Lagoon 410 owner. The last one of 3 built as a test bed for the later 420's that SOME were placed into charter .The first 410 was also placed into charter for about 5 years buy the original owner.

Steve, I think I speak for the whole group when I say we're happy to have you here and you may very well be the most knowledge person available anywhere on these systems (probably more so than the engineers since they haven't had the same field experience), that 410 is certainly a very big boat and an electric drive is an ambitious undertaking.
?
Let's say you own a 5 speed manual car and you give it to a friend for the day that has never driven a 5 speed. What are the chances that the trans is going to feel some pain over that time? Most know how much monitoring has to go on with an Electric Boat to maintain the system in peak performance and longevity of the Batteries. In its infancy the systems were not meant for that kind of abuse and they were abused. I don't care how much you think you know, its taken me about a year now to feel comfortable with the system and know what's going on. Nether Lagoon or Solomons provided wiring diagrams and I just don't have a warm fuzzy feeling unless I have a set. The boats were pulled from "service" for several reasons. In the charter business down there the majority of renters were not sailing but powering from island to island. They run A/C 24/7 and everything else they could. As with any boat system this complicated they had glitches, mostly at first with the software for the genset/ charging routines I believe. Battery life was shortened do to abuse which then creates more problems with the charging system trying to keep up. IMO this type of system should never have been put into charter to start with.

The manual trans is a good analogy, and it always seemed to me that the choice of charter service was a bold move, I mean, they must have know how those systems were going to be beat to hell! They probably got more use in a season than they would have in ten years in private hands. Still, I reiterate my concern from before, that kind of exposure and that kind of testing was bound to turn people off of these systems, maybe enthusiastic private owners would have been a better option for the long-term sales of these systems. That's all speculation of course, they may have tried private owners who wouldn't bite, they may have made a deal of some sort with the charter companies.
?
There are a few major differences between the 410 and 420 systems.
1. The Solomons system wasn't used in the 420's!
2. The Solomons system was pretty much a non computer system. The genset was manually started and shut down on the original system. One original 410 has a new genset with the Auto run and it seems to be working now (a cooling issue corrected). You monitor the state of charge and go from there on the 410.
3. The Solomons system is based on 144V system where the 420 was a 72V system.
4. Though I've never physically seen the 420 system I'm pretty sure the hardware is different. Different controllers and motors. Something a lot of people don't know is the Solomons motors are actually 2 motors connected together with 2 controllers per side. In my case I have 4 motors and 4 controllers. If I loose one of the "halves" or one controller I can still run on the other 1/2 at 50% output and throttle back to 25% on the other side.

Ok the reason why most don't run on this particular system is the cost. I bought my boat at about the cost of a standard ICE boat. I putter around the Chesapeake Bay at this time and have no more grand plans than the East Coast and hopefully the Caribbean in a few years. 410E #1 is heading for South America in a few months. 410E #2 completed a trip up the East Coast with a new owner this summer mostly in the ICW on a genset (power) do to inexperience with the sailing part of the boat and all the new systems and is planning to head to the Caribbean next Spring. I'm planning the Delmarva Peninsula next year then up to Boston and down to Myrtle Beach the following year. From there who knows.

As for my costs for fuel I filled the tanks with 40g at the start of the second year but don't know the mileage and used the boat about 60 days on the water or how "full" the tanks were. Considering the enjoyment I am quite pleased with this cost. Maintenance has been much simpler than my dock mates with ICE systems. Additional costs have been under $3k but that includes system upgrades such as the PakTrakr and a controller that was bad which now gives me a rebuilt spare. I'm budgeting around $5k a year for batteries down the road. This is a big boat and a big system. In most cases the majority of the Electric boats on this site are much smaller and most aren't planning for trips over a few weeks of traveling in blue water.

I just love the Lagoon cats, the French charter type cats are given a hard time by the speed freaks, but that's not my MO so I think they're great. My question though is that mainsail, its way up there! Have you found any trouble setting, dousing, sheeting, or generally getting way up on the cabin to mess with the boom or sail? The other question I see raised a lot is the helm placement, any trouble with visibility?
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About the Hunter 27e, I think that the Hunter 27 is a reasonable modern production boat, though not my cup of tea. Using Elco's "drop-in" diesel replacement should be pretty straightforward. I give Hunter a big thumbs up for putting the option out there, even if they haven't built one yet (does anybody know?). I've heard that Catalina out here on the west coast is discussing electric options too.
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I believe that Beneteau is also testing an Electric system built by Dave Tether, the original owner of Solomons and now working with Nigel Calder. There are several very large cats with Electric Drive Systems (Hybrid) that are on the water at this time.

That's interesting. Nigel Calder's books are invaluable for any boat owner. His latest projects I've read about have been real space-ship type electric systems for the entire boat, they seem a little over the top to me, but I'm glad someone is into this stuff in boats, I bet the results when they're all done are going to be amazing.
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Just a point on Hybrid systems. Once you get to a certain size boat and plan on a long distance or extended cruise you have to have a hybrid system. I realize most here are not interested in gensets and the like but if you're planning on any long distance sailing you got to have a backup to the batteries. I also believe most understand this and realize pure electric isn't smart under those conditions at this time.

Agreed, the retrofit systems most of us are installing are adequate for the sorts of 25-35 foot boats they're going into but once you get much larger the batteries just get out of hand and the availability of motors, controllers, gear boxes, and the like all become more difficult. Something as large as those big cats really do need a complicated system if electricity is involved and pretty much require a gen-set. I can't help but thinking the problem is expectations, with an electric set up the user knows there will be compromises with speed and range, so he accepts them. If one were willing to make the very same compromises and install a pair of diesels of more like 20hp than the 50hp that is the usual and accept the very same compromise I wonder if they could get away with a much simpler system and better fuel economy if it was used in the same way as an electric would have been.

Given your experience, could you describe your electric system, hybrid or otherwise for a cat like your 410 or something similar? I know a few decades ago there was a lot of talk about hydraulic drive for cats, using a single engine to drive a pair of hydraulic motors to move the boat would, the efficiencies of hydraulics are pretty good these days, comparable to a hybrid electric system? I know hydraulics are pretty 'industrial' and I'm sure that's a turn off for a lot of people. The only think I'd like less than a diesel spill in the boat is hydraulic fluid.

David
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Steve in Solomons MD

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