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Re: Complex design issues
I'm using Victron MPT 150/35 charge controllers on each of my 3 panels that are in series and it has no issue evening out the voltage.? It has a rotary switch that lets you set the charge profile depending on the battery chemistry.? I don't think it converts excess voltage to current (probably just regulates it down to the correct level) but it has never damaged the batteries during charging. |
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Re: Complex design issues
Yes, I've been thinking about that, in that the panels are rated at 12 volts but on a sunny day, they roll out an average of 18 volts. That's the dilemma. With each panel putting out 18 volts, I'll have more voltage (and less amperage)? with 22amps/hr vs 33.3amps if the panels are only putting out 12 volts each. The system would then be putting out 72 volts rather than the 48 volts?to charge a bank of batteries. I agree that a charging rate above 48 volts.....up to 54, according to some sources, is desirable, to charge a 48 volt bank. The answer to the dilemma is, as you mentioned, to probably get a 150 volt controller with a 20 (or more likely 40 amp) potential output. If the panels drop down to 12 or 13 volt output, there would be an increase in amperage, right? That could bring the amperage up to 33.3 amps and the controller would have to handle it.....or am I way off? 100watts/12volts =8.33 amps x 4 =33.3 .......100watts/18volts= 5.5amps x 4= 22.2amps. Question #2 is if the controller can handle the increased incoming voltage of say 72 volts and the batteries gobble up the outgoing 22.2 amps, how can we get that extra few volts to add to the 48 volts needed by the batteries to be effectively charged? Can the controller recognize that and feed the batteries 54 volts to charge? I have a Xantrex C60 model controller I use on the wind?generator but it will only accept 12 or 24 volts up to 55 volts input but can regulate up to 60 amps. It isn't suited for this and I'll need another controller to do what you suggest. Any recommendations? On Mon, Dec 2, 2024 at 7:30?PM gsxbearman via <gsxbearman=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Complex design issues
“?I have 8 100watt/12 volt panels ……” ? I have seen some 100 Watt panels advertised as 12V, but most actually put out somewhere between 21 and 26 “open Volts” (just measured with a meter and not connected to anything). If there is no data plate on your panels that tells you the open voltage, then you need to measure it because it is important to size your controller. ?For example if your cells actually put out 26 open volts, and you had 4 in series, ?then a 100 Volt controller wouldn’t be big enough. But here’s the thing, if they only put out an actual 12V open volt, then 4 in a series would not be enough to charge a 48V battery pack, even a lead acid, you would need a minimum output of 51.8 to charge lead acid (and it would take a loooong time). So if your 4 panel strings are capable of around 100V, then you probably gonna want a 150V 20A controller (20A because 800W/48v=16.66A). |
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Re: Complex design issues
“Do solar panel charge controllers work well with lithium batterys?” ? Here is the age old “it depends” answer…… ? IF, your controller is capable of being set up for your battery/batteries/battery pack, AND it is set up correctly….THEN, YES they work great. IF, you have an old controller that can not be set up for your specific type and size of batteries, THEN NO. |
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Re: Complex design issues
NP Dale good luck with the set up.? I'd recommend trying different locations/angles and measuring the output voltage/current to see what works best.
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Other than the efficiency I find that using separate strings in series works pretty well.? I usually put one set on my front deck and the other on the boom.??
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Most of my sailing is week night racing with some weekend day sailing so I'm only charging the batteries 7-8 times/summer.? It usually takes around 5 days to bring it to a full charge from 60%. |
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
I think it wise to always have a separate 12V system for your instruments, running lights, and communications along with at least one stone age lead acid (or AGM) battery to power it with. And know that you can charge a 12V lead acid battery directly from a 100 watt solar panel in an emergency situation. You have to babysit the battery and disconnect the panel when the battery gets hot (or before). This is a safety issue for when your 48V to 120 A/C inverter quits working (notice I didn’t say IF I said WHEN, just remember. it is boat) but you will carry a spare inverter right? And you can change it out in 5-8 foot seas, in the dark, while raining, with no problems right? Because that’s when things quit or get broken, the absolute worst time you can think of. But not to worry, your ole magnetic compass is right there by the wheel so you can see it, well if the wind hasn’t blown your hat off so you can keep the rain out of you eyes. Now with that being said, once you have this separate, almost bulletproof, navigation/communication system sorted, there is nothing wrong with using your traction batteries to power the rest of your “house”. And /or using the traction batteries to charge the nav/comm battery with a DC to DC step-down. So Aton listed 3 systems; Propulsion generator charging and solar charging. I would add; ?the nav/comm system and the shore power charging system. Each separate system alone should be simple enough but adding them all together is more complicated. But once connected, having them all separate means that they will be easier to troubleshoot when one system stops working in the conditions listed above. |
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Re: Complex design issues
Thanks Jeff. I have 8 100watt/12 volt panels and am considering parallel/series them to have 4 sets of two panels in parallel and then those four sets set together in series to give me 48 volts and up to 33amps to charge (separately, as used) two banks of 4 battery's (48 volts each bank),. In the mid-atlantic we can plan on 4-5 hours of direct sunlight in the summer. On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 11:51 AM jeffsschwartz via <jeffsschwartz=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Complex design issues
I'm using 6 110 watt panels and 2 Victron charge controllers (3 panels wired in series on each) to charge my 3 48V Dakota Lithium batteries with no issues other than the amount of time required.? I think the bigger issue is where you're located.? I'm on Lake Ontario and I'm getting only around 10 - 15% efficiency even on the sunniest days in the summer due to cloud cover and our northern lattitude. |
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Re: Complex design issues
Do solar panel charge controllers work well with lithium batterys? On Mon, Dec 2, 2024, 1:55 AM Myles Twete via <matwete=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
Most cruising boats in the US are wired with 120V AC for things like water heaters, air conditioners, refrigerators, and electrical outlets for all the stuff we bring from shore (blenders, table top ice makers, etc...). We are typically ALSO wired with 12V DC for things like lights, radios, instrumentes, etc. From your original post, it sounded like you were confusing the AC/DC separation.? It's fine to run AC appliances off 120V AC.? ? It would be challenging to find a motor configuration for your boat that would work well with 120V AC - most electric boats work off DC. By the same token, you generally cannot power typical 120V AC appliances directly from a string of DC batteries, even if the battery string adds up to 120V DC. You CAN have one huge battery bank, and run inverters to get the 120VAC, while using the DC battery to power traction motors.? If you use a 48 or even 72V DC battery bank, you can use regulators for the 12V DC circuits (lights, instruments, pumps, etc.).? ? Though most people prefer to use separate battery banks for motor vs. house. John
On Monday, December 2, 2024 at 09:17:05 AM CST, Newt via groups.io <mrkgillis@...> wrote:
Thank you for your replies. I understand the relationship between battery motor and generator. Getting back to my question. Why would it be harmful to wire the boat with 120 ac? What disadvantages over 12v dc? The traction motor and relationship with generator are a different issue.
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
Thank you for your replies. I understand the relationship between battery motor and generator. Getting back to my question. Why would it be harmful to wire the boat with 120 ac? What disadvantages over 12v dc? The traction motor and relationship with generator are a different issue. |
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Re: Complex design issues
开云体育Agree that lead acid is stone age…not sure if I agree about non-LiFePo lithium options---I’ve been powering my boat now for maybe 10 years with ex-THINK Enerdel lithium-ion batteries with absolutely no issues. Last purchase of used batteries saw me offering $1200 for 24kwh of lithium --- i.d. about 5cents/watt-hour. The batteries are probably good for 10 more years. Compare that to new lead-acid: Won’t last much more than 7 years and will cost about 15cents/watt-hour. And lead-acid requires maintenance, doesn’t like just sitting there floating for months and just never gives you confidence you’ll have the capacity for that trip you’re about to embark on…. ? ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of twowheelinguy via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2024 5:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [electricboats] Complex design issues ? LEAD IS DEAD! LiFePo is an acceptable chemistry for marine applications.? Stay away from anything with cobalt in it and you'll be fine.? ? I ran lead acid for over 10 years, went through three 48V banks of GC-2 6 Volt golf cart batteries which are some of the most robust lead acid batteries you can get. Recently made the switch to LiFePo and there is no comparison. Lead acid is in the Stone Age compared to lithium and yo can get top quality lithium batteries on Amazon for cheaper than some AGMs now.? ? Capt. Carter ? ? On Friday, November 29, 2024 at 10:44:51 PM EST, Dale Shomette via groups.io <dashoway@...> wrote: ? ? Thanks Luke. I already have both generators and unfortunately bout the 100 watt PVs before I had researched it. I'm still concerned about lifepo battery's as lithium tends to blow up in a potential water environment and management is a bigger deal. I've been using Enersys Odyssey? 1800 PC AGM batteries and after 10 years they're still putting out 12.6 to 12.8 volts. They're less expensive than lifepo4s and easier (as I'm an old guy) to maintain. Your right though, I wish I had invested in eight 300watt PVs. Unfortunately, ? On Fri, Nov 29, 2024, 8:03 PM Luke Johnson via <Jukelohnson=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Complex design issues
LEAD IS DEAD! LiFePo is an acceptable chemistry for marine applications.? Stay away from anything with cobalt in it and you'll be fine.? I ran lead acid for over 10 years, went through three 48V banks of GC-2 6 Volt golf cart batteries which are some of the most robust lead acid batteries you can get. Recently made the switch to LiFePo and there is no comparison. Lead acid is in the Stone Age compared to lithium and yo can get top quality lithium batteries on Amazon for cheaper than some AGMs now.? Capt. Carter www.shipofimagination.com?
On Friday, November 29, 2024 at 10:44:51 PM EST, Dale Shomette via groups.io <dashoway@...> wrote:
Thanks Luke. I already have both generators and unfortunately bout the 100 watt PVs before I had researched it. I'm still concerned about lifepo battery's as lithium tends to blow up in a potential water environment and management is a bigger deal. I've been using Enersys Odyssey? 1800 PC AGM batteries and after 10 years they're still putting out 12.6 to 12.8 volts. They're less expensive than lifepo4s and easier (as I'm an old guy) to maintain. Your right though, I wish I had invested in eight 300watt PVs. Unfortunately, On Fri, Nov 29, 2024, 8:03 PM Luke Johnson via <Jukelohnson=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
Simple system, fairly standard practice:
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battery- Motor controller- motor
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generator - battery charger (or inverter/charger if 120vac is needed) - battery?
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solar panels -charge controller - battery
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a separate 12v system can be as simple as a dc-dc converter that converts traction battery voltage to 12v, but could also be a 12v battery with solar and a dc-dc to charge it from the traction pack, and a charger to run off the generator or shore power.?
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al three systems are basically stand-alone and can operate separately and simultaneously.
Voltage is decided upon based on power level but 12v means 4x higher amps than ?a 48v system and will need larger wires controller etc.?
again, 120v battery will be dangerous in a marine environment. 72v is used, but notice the level of protection and quality of components in a 400v EV, it is difficult to achieve safety at that high voltage.?
note that even with a 48v battery and 120vac you have to follow wiring and connection and grounding rules to not have safety and reliability problems.? ?
anton
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
I am now even more confused. ?
what voltage is the battery? What capacity? Describe the motor, brand, type, size. Is it an AC or dc motor? How will you control its speed?
describe the motor drive: controller brand type size.?
Describe the battery charger, brand, size ?
describe ?operating modes: running on generator power only, battery only. Do you want it to be able to operate on both simultaneously?
It appears again in your second response that you may be under the impression that an AC generator wil directly charge a battery and that an AC motor that will run on a generator will run off a battery. There needs to be a controller or charger between an AC generator and a battery or a motor and battery. AC and dc do not talk to each other directly. ? also, I apologize for being blunt, but read up on proper use of the terms amp-hour, watt-hour, watts, amps. Your response leaves me with more questions than answers.?
anton |
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Re: Complex design issues
Thanks Luke. I already have both generators and unfortunately bout the 100 watt PVs before I had researched it. I'm still concerned about lifepo battery's as lithium tends to blow up in a potential water environment and management is a bigger deal. I've been using Enersys Odyssey? 1800 PC AGM batteries and after 10 years they're still putting out 12.6 to 12.8 volts. They're less expensive than lifepo4s and easier (as I'm an old guy) to maintain. Your right though, I wish I had invested in eight 300watt PVs. Unfortunately, On Fri, Nov 29, 2024, 8:03 PM Luke Johnson via <Jukelohnson=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Complex design issues
Im no expert but I have a comparable? setup with a catalina 30 with a 48v lifepo4 battery bank.? I get about 30 amps at 4 knots, 60 amps at 5, 90 amps at 6.? Prop is 12" diameter 6" pitch.? Hope that info helps. If it were me I'd get one generator and put the rest of the cash into higher output solar panels and one or more lifepo4 battery banks.? I don't know the size of your panels but 8 x 100 panels seems like low output for the footprint, isn't it? 8 400 watt panels would be nice, and make lots of power if you had a bank big enough to store it. Just some thoughts - |
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
There is no such thing as 120 volt AC house Bank. Batteries are only Direct Current.? .? You really don't want to use the wrong type of wiring or connectors, and you need proper fuses...? I would recommend that you let a professional design and set up your system. On Fri, Nov 29, 2024, 5:41?PM Newt via <mrkgillis=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: When the ideal house voltage please stand up?
I see my original?post caused some confusion. I think of going 120 AC for the entire house bank, except for the instruments?that require 12 DC. I think I can acquire 120 marine grade, although I wire a bunch of my outbuildings with wire that is submerged for most of the time. I would used a smaller Beta generator (5KW) to keep the large battery bank for both propulsion and house bank, along with solar. I am thinking around 50 KW ah. The generator?would be able to power the house bank and or the aux motor directly. Of course an inverter would take the battery bank to 110. Whatever voltage the motor requires, it would be able to take it directly from the batteries. Generator---->AC/DC converter --------->propulsion ?shore power? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?battery-^----> inverter-----housepower either? power-------------------------------------------^--------------------------------^ Its really quite a simple system, and the only thing I can see wrong with it is that the inverter would have to be on as long as you are using any of the house powered systems. Newt On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 7:21?AM Kev via <captainyoung=[email protected]> wrote:
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Re: Complex design issues
The two Fischer-Pandas are three cylinder diesels, EXTREMELY quiet at 60 decibels (conversation level noise), water cooled of course, and weigh a little over 100+ lbs. I don't have the exact weights with me (away for Thanksgiving). However, they ain't cheap! (Not than anything is these days). Oh, they are both in insulated quiet shells that measure close to 2'x2'x2'. Thanks, Dale On Fri, Nov 29, 2024, 12:23 PM john via <oak_box=[email protected]> wrote:
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Newt