With physical TNC's there is a serial connection from the computer to the TNC, whereby an operator can go into a "command" mode interaction between the computer and the TNC. Is this possible with direwolf on linux by doing telnet in the terminal emulator to connect to localhost on port 8000 or 8001??


I would like to learn how, if even possible, to do very simple "texting" in this manner, keyboard to keyboard via a digipeater without any other software involved.


Can I do this with direwolf whether linux or windows, and is so, how? I am thinking putty terminal connected to direwolf via localhost, and the other fellow doing the same with us going through a digipeater or even direct.


Thanks,

Stan

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Hello Stan,

?

With physical TNC's there is a serial connection from the computer to
the TNC, whereby an operator can go into a "command" mode interaction
between the computer and the TNC. Is this possible with direwolf on
linux

With Direwolf alone, no, this isn't possible.? Now, if you install LinBPQ and the TNC2 emulator package, yes, it's possible.? ? The BPQ32 package is very powerful but from the sounds of your use case, it could be like killing a fly with a sledgehammer but the choice is up to you.?

I would like to learn how, if even possible, to do very simple "texting"
in this manner, keyboard to keyboard via a digipeater without any other
software involved.

I assume you want to send just strings of text out on your packet channel?? On a physical TNC, you could do this with the "unproto" command (sends UI frames).? If you have Direwolf configured to work with the Linux AX.25 stack, you can use the "beacon" program to send those strings.? You can also use the Linpac program with the Linux native AX.25 stack to send UI packets as well as use it's dedicated F10 UI-mode screen.?? There are also other programs out there that can use Direwolf's KISS interface directly like UI-Chat or LinkUp - or even D-RATS (does a lot more than just D-star).? There are other programs out there but I don't want to choke you with too may options.

Can I do this with direwolf whether linux or windows, and is so, how?

You have to make some decision here.? Which environment do you want to use?? Windows or Linux??
Thinking a little longer term, do you want to ultimately run a BBS (BPQ32) or would you rather only have a packet client (Linpac)?? Maybe you would want a more pretty UI to send the packets (LinkUp, UI-Chat, D-RATS)


--David

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Hi David,

Thanks for the info.? It's been a long day for my learning curve on digital packet. I need to break off for today, and hit it again tomorrow.

It is starting to sound like what I am looking for does not exist (using packet radio in a manner like a texting app on my cell phone).

I am interested in learning how to do this whether Linux or Windows for a number of reasons.? For one, I use dual boot on my computers, and can choose Win7 or Kubuntu.? In my radio club, we are all individuals, with all the differences that go therewith. Most, of course normally use Windows.? Some, like me, prefer Linux. A very few are very technical, but most, not so much, and a few, like me, are just technical enough to be dangerous.? When we deploy for ARES practice operations, it would be very useful to have such a capability as I have described for use at the very beginning of setting up operations, until all parties are up and running on the final platform.... like maybe Winlink Express, or whatever.

My hunch is that something Java based might be the most universally deployable across OS platforms.

Tomorrow, I will look into your suggestions, including YAAC, which sounds somewhat promising, except it apparently comes along with all the overhead of the mapping, etc, etc.

It is starting to sound like that a TNC needs to have data sent to it in some sort of required formatting, and thus needing an application to take just plain typing text, and formatting it into acceptable form for ANY TNC.

73's for now,

Stan

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?

Allegedly there is now a "connected mode" for DireWolf in development snapshot d...

??

I've used the connected-mode support with a few local PBBSes; admittedly
not extensive but it worked well. It implements support for AX.25 V2.2 and
initial connections to some types of stations may take a few retries when the
other station deviates from the earlier AX.25 specifications.

73,
Dana? K6JQ

John

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:02 PM, David Ranch dranch@... [direwolf_packet] <direwolf_packet@...> wrote:

?

Hello Stan,

?

With physical TNC's there is a serial connection from the computer to
the TNC, whereby an operator can go into a "command" mode interaction
between the computer and the TNC. Is this possible with direwolf on
linux

With Direwolf alone, no, this isn't possible.? Now, if you install LinBPQ and the TNC2 emulator package, yes, it's possible.? ? The BPQ32 package is very powerful but from the sounds of your use case, it could be like killing a fly with a sledgehammer but the choice is up to you.?

I would like to learn how, if even possible, to do very simple "texting"
in this manner, keyboard to keyboard via a digipeater without any other
software involved.

I assume you want to send just strings of text out on your packet channel?? On a physical TNC, you could do this with the "unproto" command (sends UI frames).? If you have Direwolf configured to work with the Linux AX.25 stack, you can use the "beacon" program to send those strings.? You can also use the Linpac program with the Linux native AX.25 stack to send UI packets as well as use it's dedicated F10 UI-mode screen.?? There are also other programs out there that can use Direwolf's KISS interface directly like UI-Chat or LinkUp - or even D-RATS (does a lot more than just D-star).? There are other programs out there but I don't want to choke you with too may options.

Can I do this with direwolf whether linux or windows, and is so, how?

You have to make some decision here.? Which environment do you want to use?? Windows or Linux??
Thinking a little longer term, do you want to ultimately run a BBS (BPQ32) or would you rather only have a packet client (Linpac)?? Maybe you would want a more pretty UI to send the packets (LinkUp, UI-Chat, D-RATS)


--David

The latest direwolf 1.4 development version, on the "dev" branch, has support for AX.25 v2.2 "connected" mode.

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Hello John,

Yes, that's right!? Not only has WB2OSZ added both CONNECTED mode AX.25 sessions but they also support the AX.25 v2.2 specification for selective ACKs, etc.? This is a significant improvement over most TNCs out there that require to resend their entire "window" worth of packets over again!

Ps.? This connected mode is only available via an AGW/PE socket.? I've successfully used Outpost's ipagwpe.exe program running under Wine ( ) to use this new connected interface.? It's a very basic user interface but it works!? What we need now is to find more native AGW API compatible "terminal clients" for Mac and Linux users to leverage this new stack.

--David
KI6ZHD

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Hello Stan,

?

It is starting to sound like what I am looking for does not exist (using packet radio in a manner like a texting app on my cell phone).

With understanding what your goals are, I think we can help out more.? APRS supports a simple text messaging system that is supported on most APRS-enabled HTs (Kenwood, Yaesu, etc).? If you're looking for a computer program that can send/receive these APRS messages, I know that Aprsisce (windows), UIView32 (Windows - Java), APRS+SA (windows but old), Xastir (Linux), APRSDroid (Android), and say N7NIX's DanTracker (Linux) supports it.? I don't know if YAAC (runs in Java) does or not but I bet it does.? There are other programs out there as well.

I am interested in learning how to do this whether Linux or Windows for a number of reasons.? For one, I use dual boot on my computers, and can choose Win7 or Kubuntu.? In my radio club, we are all individuals, with all the differences that go therewith. Most, of course normally use Windows.? Some, like me, prefer Linux. A very few are very technical, but most, not so much, and a few, like me, are just technical enough to be dangerous.? When we deploy for ARES practice operations, it would be very useful to have such a capability as I have described for use at the very beginning of setting up operations, until all parties are up and running on the final platform.... like maybe Winlink Express, or whatever.

If you're looking for people to setup remote, portable stations in the field... do you expect people to buy Windows computers, etc. to create this GoKit?? I know of several projects out there that use a Raspberry Pi ($35), Raspberry Pi 7" display ($80), an HT, and Xastir all built into a Pelican box.? Very nice!

My hunch is that something Java based might be the most universally deployable across OS platforms.

Let us know if you're looking for purpose built or something that various people on various systems might try it on.? Btw, what about a dual boot system like what you're running but instead of the OS being on the hard drive, you boot off a USB pendrive?? Something like Andy's HamRadio ISO booting into a custom configred APRS setup would work well - .? This already has 99% of everything you would ever want to install on Linux already!

It is starting to sound like that a TNC needs to have data sent to it in some sort of required formatting, and thus needing an application to take just plain typing text, and formatting it into acceptable form for ANY TNC.

Well, sending data over a TNC it's specific layers:

?? Layer 1 - If your TNC is running in KISS mode (meaning all the smarts are running on an attached computer), the data going to the TNC needs to be formatted into specific KISS frames

?? Layer 2 - The AX.25 packet is a very specific protocol and like you said.. it needs to be specifically formatted to be "legal"

?? Layer 3 - APRS Text messaging uses specific formatting on top of those AX.25 UI formatted packets
?? Layer 3 - D-RATS uses it's own formatting for it's messaging
?? Layer 3 - Linux's beacon program is a free-form packet which you can put any text into


Lots of possibilities here so if you give us some more specific ideas and thoughts on what you're looking for, the skills, equipment and budget your users might have... I'm sure we can help you narrow things down.

--David
KI6ZHD

It is starting to sound like what I am looking for does not exist (using packet radio in a manner like a texting app on my cell phone).

There isn't a robust app yet. Several are close and hopefully some
next generation APRS tools will provide what we're all looking for.

In the meantime - check these out:

uichat -
fsqcall -
easyterm - -
airchat -

--

Easyterm is a windows application for the 'other' soundcard packet
program. I haven't tested it yet but if the interfaces are close
enough- it should work with DireWolf.

Airchat has other issues... :)

73
Bill, WA7NWP

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Hello Bill,

uichat -
fsqcall -
easyterm - -
airchat -

UI-Chat (both the legacy Bash based program and the newer Java program) will work with packet AX.25 packet.? It's very similar to FSQCall and/or D-Rats's interface

FSQCall program implements the FSQ protocol strictly uses it's own IFK mode which can be used over say a FM VHF radio.? Fldigi also supports the FSQ protocol but via any existing data mode supported by Fldigi.? This makes it more flexible and reliable depending on the propagation conditions of a given day.? This too can run over a FM radio if you want.

Easyterm is a windows application for the 'other' soundcard packet
program. I haven't tested it yet but if the interfaces are close
enough- it should work with DireWolf.

Easyterm, axcall, etc. are all CONNECTED mode AX.25 packet programs.? I had the original impression that he was looking for UNCONNECTED sessions (UI packets) but maybe I was "putting words in his mouth".? If he doesn't care on the transport, yes, there are even more programs that could be considered.? We really need to better understand what he's looking to do, the constraints, etc.

--David

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Wow!? Great info...

Hmmmm..... I think that I mentioned earlier that I am just technical enough to be dangerous.

I am just now wading into the world of packet radio, and it is quite obvious that I have much more reading and studying to do.

In my club, we are all individuals as described in my earlier post.? We do not wish to burden members any more than absolutely necessary, whether with technical know-how or financial investment.? For now, the idea is to try and find the most universal, and simplest? to implement, method to obtain "texting" capability through a digipeater.? In a disaster situation, or practice run therefor, one of our more technical fellows might have one, two, or more, portable digipeaters, and position them in one or more county-wide, temporary location(s) for the duration of the event.? The idea is for the individual rank-and-file members to be able to text among themselves, even if they have virtually no knowledge of packet radio, or how it works, and using whatever digital capability they may already have, whether a nice new Kantronics top of the line, or a 20 year old TNC, or a SignaLink USB, or whatever.? The idea is to try to make use, in this manner, of whatever equipment they already have.? To me, it looks like DireWolf would be an important key, in that it works virtually the same whether running on Windows or on Linux.? So, if I understand correctly, which very likely may not be the case!!, an external TNC could be put into KISS mode, and then DireWolf be utilized for all the TNC type work. In this manner, again if I got this most fundamental understanding correct, that external TNC is then just acting as a sound card like a SignaLink USB.? By the way, please understand that my only exposure to any kind of digital operations is using the SignaLink USB, and most of my actual contacts are on HF, fldigi, PSK31. So, obviously, I have a learning curve in front of me.

This new connect mode with DireWolf 1.4 sounds interesting.? However, my lack of adequate knowledge is killing me once again.? The first version I used was installed here on Kubuntu 16.04 using the apt-get command, but version 1.2 is the only one available that way.? Yesterday, I uninstalled that version, also using the apt-get command.? Then, I installed version 1.3 using the "make" method, and got that working, but that was before the email about the connect method of 1.4 was posted.? So, now, I don't know how to uninstall ver 1.3 so I can then install ver 1.4.? The apt-get method doesn't even find it, and Google searches have not yet bailed me out.? I find myself down a rabbit hole!!? I seem to stumble into many of these rabbit holes .... oh well, it's all fun!

I have had a couple of days to study and read, hoping to discover how to do this, but I see it is way more complex than I had anticipated.? I am running out of time to keep reading and studying, as the holidays approach. My window of time is closing soon, and the effort will be catch as catch can for time spent afterward.

I cannot even begin to express how much I have appreciated the patience and knowledge afforded to me with my posts here.

I'm not gone yet, and have one more day, but that day also has other responsibilities pulling me away, starting this afternoon.

73's,
Stan

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Hello Stan,

?

In my club, we are all individuals as described in my earlier post.? We do not wish to burden members any more than absolutely necessary, whether with technical know-how or financial investment.? For now, the idea is to try and find the most universal, and simplest? to implement, method to obtain "texting" capability through a digipeater

So let's stop there real quick.? When you say "digipeater", you are focusing to specific AX.25 technology.? Within digipeaters, there are those on 144.390 used for APRS (usually pretty good coverage) and then there are those used for standard packet (might not be so common in your area).? Beyond using that fixed infrastructure in your area and again depending on your use cases, you might want to send this data via simplex (not dependent on digipeaters) be it VHF, HF, etc.?

In a disaster situation, or practice run therefor, one of our more technical fellows might have one, two, or more, portable digipeaters, and position them in one or more county-wide, temporary location(s) for the duration of the event.? The idea is for the individual rank-and-file members to be able to text among themselves, even if they have virtually no knowledge of packet radio, or how it works, and using whatever digital capability they may already have, whether a nice new Kantronics top of the line, or a 20 year old TNC, or a SignaLink USB, or whatever

Sure.. that's all very possible and it sounds like you want to center your technology on AX.25 packet.? Ok.. that will work fine!

.? The idea is to try to make use, in this manner, of whatever equipment they already have.? To me, it looks like DireWolf would be an important key, in that it works virtually the same whether running on Windows or on Linux.? So, if I understand correctly, which very likely may not be the case!!, an external TNC could be put into KISS mode, and then DireWolf be utilized for all the TNC type work.

Incorrect (let me explain).? You have a few potential permutations here:

?? 1. connect your radio to a TNC - the TNC has all the basic digipeater or APRS tech built-in

?? 2. connect your radio to a soundcard connected to a computer running Direwolf (Direwolf cannot be connected to a TNC as they do the same thing) and Direwolf does the basic digipeater or APRS tech

?? 3. connect your radio to a soundcard connected to a computer running Direwolf (Direwolf cannot be connected to a TNC as they do the same thing) and some other software like YAC, Xastir, whatever does the basic digipeater or APRS tech

In this manner, again if I got this most fundamental understanding correct, that external TNC is then just acting as a sound card like a SignaLink USB.

Not really.. TNCs can only do a very specific mode (1200bps Audio FSK) with specific HDLC and AX.25 framing in hardware.? Compare that to a soundcard (Signalink) which is 100% generic and the software running the soundcard will do whatever you want.? The benefit of a TNC is a fixed purpose and potential simplicity.? The benefits of a soundcard is flexibility, improved performance, and cost.

This new connect mode with DireWolf 1.4 sounds interesting

We should rewind here.? You originally were asking to send "text messages".? Sending messages can either be:

?? - reliable (guaranteed to get there by the protocol itself ) - this is the AX.25 CONNECTED mode
?? - reliable (ensured to get there by the application) - an example of this is APRS's messaging modes that use ACKs
?? - non-reliable - messages are sent but there is no guarantee or automatic retries

I really don't want to over-complicate the issue here but I just want to make sure you're aware of the the options

.? However, my lack of adequate knowledge is killing me once again.?

That's ok and people on this list and others are happy to help as long as you're willing to learn!

The first version I used was installed here on Kubuntu 16.04 using the apt-get command, but version 1.2 is the only one available that way.? Yesterday, I uninstalled that version, also using the apt-get command.? Then, I installed version 1.3 using the "make" method, and got that working, but that was before the email about the connect method of 1.4 was posted

Stay with 1.3 as 1.4 is very much in an early beta.? You CAN get the connected support with Direwolf 1.3 via other ways if that's the way you want to go (vs the other ways mentioned above)

So, now, I don't know how to uninstall ver 1.3 so I can then install ver 1.4.? The apt-get method doesn't even find it, and Google searches have not yet bailed me out.? I find myself down a rabbit hole!!? I seem to stumble into many of these rabbit holes .... oh well, it's all fun!

Unfortunately, using the "make install" method of installing code cannot be "uninstalled" as it's not a package.? As new versions of Direwolf come along, you would just overwrite the old files with the new ones.? If you want to do things a little cleaner in the future, you can use the "checkinstall" method to build and create a package.? I wouldn't worry about that for now.

I method have had a couple of days to study and read, hoping to discover how to do this, but I see it is way more complex than I had anticipated.? I am running out of time to keep reading and studying, as the holidays approach. My window of time is closing soon, and the effort will be catch as catch can for time spent afterward.

Well, I would encourage you to try a FEW of these solutions out if you have the time and see which ones you like.? I do promise you'll learn a lot!

I cannot even begin to express how much I have appreciated the patience and knowledge afforded to me with my posts here.

Glad to help and there are many other very helpful people on this list too!

--David
KI6ZHD

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Hi David,

Ok.... I've done a bit more reading, and it looks like my lack of knowledge has caused me to make the wrong statements and ask the wrong questions toward achieving the objective.

I think it is correct that what I want to use is called "connected" mode, using standard packet, but I have only a fuzzy fundamental mental picture of what all that entails.

To reword my objective, now that I have a wee bit more understanding, I think what I want to work toward getting set up is a small network of nodes, which would only be active when deployed during an ARES event.? This network of nodes would be like what was apparently very common back in the 90's, in that an originating station would connect to a node, then tell that node to connect to yet another node, etc, and finally telling the last node to connect to a specific end station.

So, to get started on all this, we might use an old laptop computer, with a USB sound card, and an old 2M mobile.? This arrangement would be set up with whatever software is needed to make it into a "node".? Then that whole thing be duplicated with yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile as a second "node".?

With these nodes now set up, yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile would then be set up as just an operator's station.? And this is the arrangement that the more technical fellows would assist the rank-and-file members in setting up and using whatever they already have, while the more technical fellows would set up and maintain the "nodes".

After some time has passed using this arrangement, whereby several rank-and-file members are comfortable using such network, we might move up another small step and set up those nodes to be PBBS stations (or PBBS nodes, if that is more correct terminology).

So, if I am now making more clear statements describing the objective (and hopefully stating them more correctly), it now appears that I need to be looking for the following kind of software:

??? 1)??? Software that makes a loptop into a node, and that will interface with DireWolf.

??? ??? ?? ??? And here, hopefully, one software that runs on Linux, and another that runs on Windows.

??? 2)??? Software that is just a "dumb terminal" that will interface with DireWolf for the end users.

??? ??? ??? ??? And again, hopefully, one that runs on Linux and another that runs on Windows.

??? 3)??? And for maybe later on, software that makes a laptop node into a PBBS.

And finally, on down the road, as time and resources become available, convert the nodes/PBBS's over to Raspberry Pi's.

For now, however, the hardware that we have to work with is some old laptops, some USB sound cards, and some older 2M rigs that we would like to assemble together to form our first packet radio network. There are also some old TNC's availble, but I am not familiar with what they are. However, if they could be pressed into service in a similar manner, then all the better!!

Ok... back to my studies... but today, I gotta get some domestic chores done, and some errands ran .

73's,

Stan

I think the most common and versitile software for node and BBS in current use and development would be BPQ32.
In the basic it is a NODE that has APRS and BBS build in waiting to be activated if needed.
It runs on linux and windows and best of all does not even need a laptop to run, it can run on a raspberry pi along with direwolf.

This will cut down on the needed power to run a lot compared to a laptop, offcourse you can still run it on a laptop if you wanted.

BPQ32 can also be used to let a user telnet in with something like PUTTY and then connect out to the network trough packet.
As BPQ32 uses netrom routing it will autodiscover the network and users can connect direct to the destination node from the local node.

73 de PE1RDW
Stan Ham wb9gfa@... [direwolf_packet] schreef op 2016-12-15 15:56:

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Hello Stan,

?

I think it is correct that what I want to use is called "connected" mode, using standard packet, but I have only a fuzzy fundamental mental picture of what all that entails.

Ok.

To reword my objective, now that I have a wee bit more understanding, I think what I want to work toward getting set up is a small network of nodes, which would only be active when deployed during an ARES event.? This network of nodes would be like what was apparently very common back in the 90's, in that an originating station would connect to a node, then tell that node to connect to yet another node, etc, and finally telling the last node to connect to a specific end station.

Ok.. so during your activation, you'd like to have station-A use a CONNECTED session back to net control.? That will work fine and even have lots of other stations such as station-b, station-c, station-d, etc all connected back to net control simultaneously assuming they have strong signals and they aren't sending too much traffic all at the same time.? The best thing about connected mode is that you are ensured either the traffic will get to net control or the session will be torn down due to too many retries.? They are also near real time communications.

So, to get started on all this, we might use an old laptop computer, with a USB sound card, and an old 2M mobile.? This arrangement would be set up with whatever software is needed to make it into a "node".? Then that whole thing be duplicated with yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile as a second "node".?

With these nodes now set up, yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile would then be set up as just an operator's station.? And this is the arrangement that the more technical fellows would assist the rank-and-file members in setting up and using whatever they already have, while the more technical fellows would set up and maintain the "nodes".

Ok.. that will work perfectly fine and Direwolf can do this.? At it's minimum design, you would need TWO computers:? One for net control and one for a leaf-node - Station-A.

After some time has passed using this arrangement, whereby several rank-and-file members are comfortable using such network, we might move up another small step and set up those nodes to be PBBS stations (or PBBS nodes, if that is more correct terminology).

Yup.. this would be an easy addition depending on what hardware/software you want to use.? Many nodes in my area are Kantronics KPC3 TNCs that can be a digi, a node, a netrom router, and a PBBS all at the same time.? I believe the newest Timewave PK96 TNCs can do the same.

So, if I am now making more clear statements describing the objective (and hopefully stating them more correctly), it now appears that I need to be looking for the following kind of software:

??? 1)??? Software that makes a loptop into a node, and that will interface with DireWolf.

??? ??? ?? ??? And here, hopefully, one software that runs on Linux, and another that runs on Windows.

Are the "nodes" that you'd like to use already operational or would you be deploying them in an adhoc fashion?? If these nodes are to be adhoct I know this can be done well using Linux but I'm not aware of any node software for Windows.? Some might exist but I fully expect it will be old, un-maintained from the Windows95 era and probably will NOT run on modern versionsof Windows


Before we get into the details of this specific design, I wanted to explain that there are a *few ways* to connect Station-A to Net-Control.? It all depends on how far apart your nodes are and their reachability:

?? - Simplex : the two stations can clearly hear each other and can pass traffic w/o using any other hops in between.? This is by far the fastest and most efficient way but usually requires the stations to have line of sight to each other

?? - Digipeaters: two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a digipeater in between.? In this scenario, packets are duplicated at the digi and it works well but any retries that are required have to be created from the end-points.? Packet connections using digipeaters start to experience high retry counts, failures, et.c after about three digipeater hops due to the retry issue

?? - Nodes : two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a node in between.? In this scenario, Station-A manually logs into a node and manually initiates a connection to net control.? Though manual to setup the connection, all retries are isolated to the two links (station-a to node, and node to net control).? At that point, the node be be responsible for doing part of the retries when required.? This is a more reliable connection for long distance, multi-hop connections (100s of miles).? On a Kantronics KPC3, they call this a KaNet node.? On Linux, I would recommend to use the URONode program.

?? - Netrom / ROSE / Xnet network :? two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a routing node in between.? In this scenario, Station-A either manually logs into local node or initiates a NETROM, ROSE, or Xnet network connection directly to the final destination *regardless* of how many hops away it might be.? At this point, the nearest node knows how to get to the final destination via the most reliable path.? All retries are isolated to the various network links and even if an intermediate link is torn down (say due to retries), the broken link will be automatically re-established and continue forwarding the traffic transparently to the two endpoints!? This is a more reliable connection for long distance, multi-hop connections (100s of miles) but adds additional protocol overhead to "tunnel" your traffic over the connection.? This also requires the various nodes have to periodically send network "routes" to the other nodes so they know about each other.? On a Kantronics KPC3, they call this a Knet node.? On Linux, you run a daemon to create the? Netrom, or Rose, or Xnet routing packets.? You don't necessarily need a node program like UroNode if the leaf nodes natively support the routing protocol.

??? 2)??? Software that is just a "dumb terminal" that will interface with DireWolf for the end users.

??? ??? ??? ??? And again, hopefully, one that runs on Linux and another that runs on Windows.

There isn't much "dumb terminal" software that can interface with Direwolf directly.? I think based on your use case, you should consider using better software than a dumb terminal.? If you DO want to start with a dumb terminal approach, you could try the new Direwolf 1.4 dev release (not deemed stable) that natively supports CONNECTED mode with an AGW terminal program such as Outpost's ipagwpe.exe Windows program.? It would be very basic and potentially unreliable (Direwolf 1.4 is still in development) but this would be simplest setup on the clients.?? It's also worth noting that these clients WON'T be able to do native Netrom/Rose/Xnet connections directly.? Ideas for more featureful software could include Linux's native axcall, Linpac for Linux, XPware for Windows, etc.? Other programs like the old KaGold, PackRatt, etc. won't work with Direwolf.

??? 3)??? And for maybe later on, software that makes a laptop node into a PBBS.

Using a tree analogy, you won't want the "leaf nodes" to be the center of communications as they might not be as available for others to connect to it.? This creates more traffic funnel to a specific branches and to a specific leaf station (creates network bottlenecks, single point of failure if the station becomes unavailable, etc)

And finally, on down the road, as time and resources become available, convert the nodes/PBBS's over to Raspberry Pi's

Running packet software on a laptop running Linux is 99% the same as running packet on a Raspberry Pi.? I think the Rpi units would be good for the core digi/nodes but for the leaf nodes (say Station-A, Station-B, etc), keeping them a laptop might be best as those devices have a built-in screen, keyboard, mouse etc.? You can connect a screen, keyboard, mouse, etc to a Rpi, but all that is external components which potentially makes the setups overly complicated.

For now, however, the hardware that we have to work with is some old laptops, some USB sound cards, and some older 2M rigs that we would like to assemble together to form our first packet radio network.

Please note that Direwolf (on a Raspberry Pi running Linux) isn't always compatible with all USB sound cards.? It does seem that Direwolf running on regular PCs/Laptops are more compatible.? You'll have to try it out to see if your specific soundcards work OK with Direwolf but if they aren't reliable, replacement USB sound cards are not expensive.? Roughly $7 will get you a good one - see the tested HW in the Direwolf User Guide).? Also, Windows running on old computer hardware might provide to be troublesome as there isn't as much software, it's less flexible for your currently planned use case, etc.? I would also add that you shouldn't don't run old Windows versions like Windows 2000, Windows XP.? Please only run versions of windows that get security fixes, OS patches, etc even if they aren't connected to the Internet.

There are also some old TNC's availble, but I am not familiar with what they are. However, if they could be pressed into service in a similar manner, then all the better!!

Using some of those TNCs might get you started but they also might limit your options too.? Just a few thoughts:

? - Classic TNCs only do AFSK1200 or FSK9600 modes - while more compatible, your network sounds like it will be adhoc setups.? Direwolf 1.4-DEV now offers a 2400bps QPSK mode that is 2x faster with existing radios and it initially looks to be more robust than 1200AFSK too.? That's great news but that mode won't work with your old physical TNCs.? It's all going to depend if you want speed vs legacy compatibility.? Also consider the old TNC2 TNCs from say MFJ, PacCOMM, AEA/Timewave, Kenwood, Kantronics, TNC2 + X1J firmware, etc can have differing features (PBBS, Netrom routing, chat room (talk), etc.?


Btw.. one more us-case you might want consider in a future version of your system design there:

My local ARES/RACES group used to have their weekly net checkins sent into a PBBS but it was both a single point of failure and also had scaling issues.? They moved a centralized packet BBS (several of them actually) and clients would use the Outpost for Windows message program and send messages to the net control mailbox.? The benefits of using Outpost (Windows program but can run under Wine for Linux) is it has a user friendly GUI, customizable message templates (drives consistency), archive support, etc.?? This isn't a real-time messaging system like using a CONNECTED-mode chat but it can be quite quick depending on how often the leaf-nodes poll for new messages.? The flip side of this specific design is that it's complex but it also offers a high level of redundancy once deployed properly.

I'm sure there are several other designs out there that can be considered as you come up to speed with all the basics, etc.? I would still recommend to start with your original design to become familiar with the technology, how it performs (good and bad), and see how well your larger team adopts it.

--David
KI6ZHD

开云体育

Responses embedded into your reply....?? I will prefix my new comments with the word "Comment:", because I'm not sure how my reply here to you will appear at your end.

?

Hello Stan,

?

I think it is correct that what I want to use is called "connected" mode, using standard packet, but I have only a fuzzy fundamental mental picture of what all that entails.

Ok.

To reword my objective, now that I have a wee bit more understanding, I think what I want to work toward getting set up is a small network of nodes, which would only be active when deployed during an ARES event.? This network of nodes would be like what was apparently very common back in the 90's, in that an originating station would connect to a node, then tell that node to connect to yet another node, etc, and finally telling the last node to connect to a specific end station.

Ok.. so during your activation, you'd like to have station-A use a CONNECTED session back to net control.? That will work fine and even have lots of other stations such as station-b, station-c, station-d, etc all connected back to net control simultaneously assuming they have strong signals and they aren't sending too much traffic all at the same time.? The best thing about connected mode is that you are ensured either the traffic will get to net control or the session will be torn down due to too many retries.? They are also near real time communications.

Comment:
??? Yes, this sounds like it.... I assume this could be done such that all stations could see each other's traffic, or that only net control sees it if desired that way by command/control personnel.? A possible part of the vision, I think, is that these nodes would be placed in an automobile with a mag mount, and parked in a functional location during the course of the event.? So, if signal strength became an issue due to distance, mountain in the way, or whatever, another node could be deployed geographically in another automobile to create another node to hop to in between.? Periodic return to these vehicles would be done as needed to ensure no dead batteries.? Such nodes would be added as reliable performance demands.? For now, county-wide communications is of beginning interest, but it seems that theoretically, more nodes could be deployed to reach out to state-wide communications or beyond..... but that's not where we are now.... for now, just county-wide.

So, to get started on all this, we might use an old laptop computer, with a USB sound card, and an old 2M mobile.? This arrangement would be set up with whatever software is needed to make it into a "node".? Then that whole thing be duplicated with yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile as a second "node".?

With these nodes now set up, yet another laptop, sound card, and 2M mobile would then be set up as just an operator's station.? And this is the arrangement that the more technical fellows would assist the rank-and-file members in setting up and using whatever they already have, while the more technical fellows would set up and maintain the "nodes".

Ok.. that will work perfectly fine and Direwolf can do this.? At it's minimum design, you would need TWO computers:? One for net control and one for a leaf-node - Station-A.

After some time has passed using this arrangement, whereby several rank-and-file members are comfortable using such network, we might move up another small step and set up those nodes to be PBBS stations (or PBBS nodes, if that is more correct terminology).

Yup.. this would be an easy addition depending on what hardware/software you want to use.? Many nodes in my area are Kantronics KPC3 TNCs that can be a digi, a node, a netrom router, and a PBBS all at the same time.? I believe the newest Timewave PK96 TNCs can do the same.

Comment:
??? I believe that there are one or two members of the club that have these Kantronics TNC's, but I don't know if they would be made available for this purpose, but more importantly, I wouldn't want to be counting on it.? So that leaves me with the laptop, USB sound card and software to create these nodes.? And if one of these other TNC's come available, so much the better.

So, if I am now making more clear statements describing the objective (and hopefully stating them more correctly), it now appears that I need to be looking for the following kind of software:

??? 1)??? Software that makes a loptop into a node, and that will interface with DireWolf.

??? ??? ?? ??? And here, hopefully, one software that runs on Linux, and another that runs on Windows.

Are the "nodes" that you'd like to use already operational or would you be deploying them in an adhoc fashion?? If these nodes are to be adhoct I know this can be done well using Linux but I'm not aware of any node software for Windows.? Some might exist but I fully expect it will be old, un-maintained from the Windows95 era and probably will NOT run on modern versionsof Windows

Comment:
??? No, these nodes, nor anything else of this vision are yet in place.? They would be deployed in an adhoc fashion, as geographically suitable as possible as described in above comment, and then shut down until the next deployment, except for operational verification periodically.

??? Ok, so scratch the Windows version on a node.? The nodes would be handled by the more technically savvy members anyway.? If a laptop has some version of Windows on it, a disk image can be captured and stored on an external usb hard drive for later retrieval.? From there, the laptop could be reimaged with a Linux system, and set up as a node.? Then, if the owner wanted his Windows image back on it, do so, and nothing lost.

Before we get into the details of this specific design, I wanted to explain that there are a *few ways* to connect Station-A to Net-Control.? It all depends on how far apart your nodes are and their reachability:

?? - Simplex : the two stations can clearly hear each other and can pass traffic w/o using any other hops in between.? This is by far the fastest and most efficient way but usually requires the stations to have line of sight to each other

?? - Digipeaters: two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a digipeater in between.? In this scenario, packets are duplicated at the digi and it works well but any retries that are required have to be created from the end-points.? Packet connections using digipeaters start to experience high retry counts, failures, et.c after about three digipeater hops due to the retry issue

?? - Nodes : two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a node in between.? In this scenario, Station-A manually logs into a node and manually initiates a connection to net control.? Though manual to setup the connection, all retries are isolated to the two links (station-a to node, and node to net control).? At that point, the node be be responsible for doing part of the retries when required.? This is a more reliable connection for long distance, multi-hop connections (100s of miles).? On a Kantronics KPC3, they call this a KaNet node.? On Linux, I would recommend to use the URONode program.

?? - Netrom / ROSE / Xnet network :? two stations *cannot* hear each other but they can hear a routing node in between.? In this scenario, Station-A either manually logs into local node or initiates a NETROM, ROSE, or Xnet network connection directly to the final destination *regardless* of how many hops away it might be.? At this point, the nearest node knows how to get to the final destination via the most reliable path.? All retries are isolated to the various network links and even if an intermediate link is torn down (say due to retries), the broken link will be automatically re-established and continue forwarding the traffic transparently to the two endpoints!? This is a more reliable connection for long distance, multi-hop connections (100s of miles) but adds additional protocol overhead to "tunnel" your traffic over the connection.? This also requires the various nodes have to periodically send network "routes" to the other nodes so they know about each other.? On a Kantronics KPC3, they call this a Knet node.? On Linux, you run a daemon to create the? Netrom, or Rose, or Xnet routing packets.? You don't necessarily need a node program like UroNode if the leaf nodes natively support the routing protocol.

Comment:
??? I suspect all are possibilities, except maybe the digipeater choice of the four you have delineated.? And I am thinking this, because it could possibly turn out that, at least some of these nodes in vehicles mentioned in above comments, may be run on handitalkies, and thus low power and shorter reliable communication path.... thus needing more nodes in between.? Bottom line, I think the packet confirmation between nodes is the most desireable, so that additional nodes may be added as needed pretty easily.

??? 2)??? Software that is just a "dumb terminal" that will interface with DireWolf for the end users.

??? ??? ??? ??? And again, hopefully, one that runs on Linux and another that runs on Windows.

There isn't much "dumb terminal" software that can interface with Direwolf directly.? I think based on your use case, you should consider using better software than a dumb terminal.? If you DO want to start with a dumb terminal approach, you could try the new Direwolf 1.4 dev release (not deemed stable) that natively supports CONNECTED mode with an AGW terminal program such as Outpost's ipagwpe.exe Windows program.? It would be very basic and potentially unreliable (Direwolf 1.4 is still in development) but this would be simplest setup on the clients.?? It's also worth noting that these clients WON'T be able to do native Netrom/Rose/Xnet connections directly.? Ideas for more featureful software could include Linux's native axcall, Linpac for Linux, XPware for Windows, etc.? Other programs like the old KaGold, PackRatt, etc. won't work with Direwolf.

Comment:
??? Ok... maybe "dumb terminal" has more specific meaning than I understand.? Maybe PuTTy Terminal?? Or a shell console on Linux.? So, your comment about using some better software is probably where I need to be looking.? Thanks!!

??? 3)??? And for maybe later on, software that makes a laptop node into a PBBS.

Using a tree analogy, you won't want the "leaf nodes" to be the center of communications as they might not be as available for others to connect to it.? This creates more traffic funnel to a specific branches and to a specific leaf station (creates network bottlenecks, single point of failure if the station becomes unavailable, etc)

And finally, on down the road, as time and resources become available, convert the nodes/PBBS's over to Raspberry Pi's

Running packet software on a laptop running Linux is 99% the same as running packet on a Raspberry Pi.? I think the Rpi units would be good for the core digi/nodes but for the leaf nodes (say Station-A, Station-B, etc), keeping them a laptop might be best as those devices have a built-in screen, keyboard, mouse etc.? You can connect a screen, keyboard, mouse, etc to a Rpi, but all that is external components which potentially makes the setups overly complicated.

Comment:
Ok... noted.... that 99% figure is particularly exciting!!

For now, however, the hardware that we have to work with is some old laptops, some USB sound cards, and some older 2M rigs that we would like to assemble together to form our first packet radio network.

Please note that Direwolf (on a Raspberry Pi running Linux) isn't always compatible with all USB sound cards.? It does seem that Direwolf running on regular PCs/Laptops are more compatible.? You'll have to try it out to see if your specific soundcards work OK with Direwolf but if they aren't reliable, replacement USB sound cards are not expensive.? Roughly $7 will get you a good one - see the tested HW in the Direwolf User Guide).? Also, Windows running on old computer hardware might provide to be troublesome as there isn't as much software, it's less flexible for your currently planned use case, etc.? I would also add that you shouldn't don't run old Windows versions like Windows 2000, Windows XP.? Please only run versions of windows that get security fixes, OS patches, etc even if they aren't connected to the Internet.

There are also some old TNC's availble, but I am not familiar with what they are. However, if they could be pressed into service in a similar manner, then all the better!!

Using some of those TNCs might get you started but they also might limit your options too.? Just a few thoughts:

? - Classic TNCs only do AFSK1200 or FSK9600 modes - while more compatible, your network sounds like it will be adhoc setups.? Direwolf 1.4-DEV now offers a 2400bps QPSK mode that is 2x faster with existing radios and it initially looks to be more robust than 1200AFSK too.? That's great news but that mode won't work with your old physical TNCs.? It's all going to depend if you want speed vs legacy compatibility.? Also consider the old TNC2 TNCs from say MFJ, PacCOMM, AEA/Timewave, Kenwood, Kantronics, TNC2 + X1J firmware, etc can have differing features (PBBS, Netrom routing, chat room (talk), etc.?


Btw.. one more us-case you might want consider in a future version of your system design there:

My local ARES/RACES group used to have their weekly net checkins sent into a PBBS but it was both a single point of failure and also had scaling issues.? They moved a centralized packet BBS (several of them actually) and clients would use the Outpost for Windows message program and send messages to the net control mailbox.? The benefits of using Outpost (Windows program but can run under Wine for Linux) is it has a user friendly GUI, customizable message templates (drives consistency), archive support, etc.?? This isn't a real-time messaging system like using a CONNECTED-mode chat but it can be quite quick depending on how often the leaf-nodes poll for new messages.? The flip side of this specific design is that it's complex but it also offers a high level of redundancy once deployed properly.

Comment:
??? All suggestions, thoughts, and ideas are very welcome.

I'm sure there are several other designs out there that can be considered as you come up to speed with all the basics, etc.? I would still recommend to start with your original design to become familiar with the technology, how it performs (good and bad), and see how well your larger team adopts it.

--David
KI6ZHD

Thanks again, David.
73's,
Stan

开云体育

Hello Stan,

?

Comment:
??? Yes, this sounds like it.... I assume this could be done such that all stations could see each other's traffic, or that only net control sees it if desired that way by command/control personnel.?

DR> Without going to extra steps, NO, a classic connected session is only between the net control and a specific station.? Now with that said, it can be done using special software of TNCs.? A TNC2 TNC with a 3rd party? X1J ROM has the group chat feature called "talk" which would let everyone see each others messages.? It works well but it doesn't scale very well beyond say 10 stations.? Moving to a pure software design, there is the Converse program for Linux that does something similar to the X1J talk feature (it's very similar to IRC if you know what that is).? Linpac also has a similar feature built-in.

possible part of the vision, I think, is that these nodes would be placed in an automobile with a mag mount, and parked in a functional location during the course of the event.? So, if signal strength became an issue due to distance, mountain in the way, or whatever, another node could be deployed geographically in another automobile to create another node to hop to in between.? Periodic return to these vehicles would be done as needed to ensure no dead batteries.

DR> Though this will work, you run the risk of stranding a person's car with a dead battery.? For long operations, I always recommend dedicated batteries for the radio setup.? it might run out of battery but the car will always restart.? To keep things all charged up, consider buying something like a West Mountain PG40S to let the car charge the radio battery but isolate it when the car isn't running.? Check out my Kenwood D710 mobile installation for more details on this approach if you're interested -

Comment:
??? I believe that there are one or two members of the club that have these Kantronics TNC's, but I don't know if they would be made available for this purpose, but more importantly, I wouldn't want to be counting on it.? So that leaves me with the laptop, USB sound card and software to create these nodes.? And if one of these other TNC's come available, so much the better.

DR> Ok.. that's a sound starting point.

??? Ok, so scratch the Windows version on a node.? The nodes would be handled by the more technically savvy members anyway.? If a laptop has some version of Windows on it, a disk image can be captured and stored on an external usb hard drive for later retrieval.? From there, the laptop could be reimaged with a Linux system, and set up as a node.? Then, if the owner wanted his Windows image back on it, do so, and nothing lost.

DR> Depending on the age of the laptop, you can do one better.? Boot Linux off a USB pendrive where it would run completely off the USB pendrive and it never touches the laptop's original HD.? All of your settings can be stored on the pendrive too so the next time you boot off the USB pendrive, it's exactly where you left off!? Check out say for one example of this (this ISO a lot of other Ham Radio software pre-installed.. including Direwolf, Linpac, etc.? Very slick!? I also see he's working on version 20 so it will have even newer versions of some of those programs, etc.

Comment:

??? I suspect all are possibilities, except maybe the digipeater choice of the four you have delineated.? And I am thinking this, because it could possibly turn out that, at least some of these nodes in vehicles mentioned in above comments, may be run on handitalkies, and thus low power and shorter reliable communication path.... thus needing more nodes in between.? Bottom line, I think the packet confirmation between nodes is the most desireable, so that additional nodes may be added as needed pretty easily.

DR> Yes, this is true but I encourage you to research the term "hidden transmitter".? As you add more nodes to a frequency, some stations won't be able to hear others but at common points, the transmissions from the two station can collide, causing excessive re transmits, etc.? While using HTs will work, it's generally recommended to run radios with 10-25 watts for optimal performance.? Generally speaking, mobile radios have better receiver performance in addition to the added power.? Something to consider.

Comment:
??? Ok... maybe "dumb terminal" has more specific meaning than I understand.? Maybe PuTTy Terminal?? Or a shell console on Linux.? So, your comment about using some better software is probably where I need to be looking.? Thanks!!

DR> Yes.. Putty would fall into the dumb terminal context.? To give you a counter example, consider this Linpac screen capture -

See that lower middle line with 1:WA6YNG-5 and then empty fields for 2:, 3:, 4:, 5:, 6:, 7:, and 8:?? Each of those numbers correspond to the F1, F2, F3, etc keys on your PC keyboard and each one of those can be different CONNECTED sessions to different stations. ? Alternatively, just one session, say the F1 session can run the Converse chat room that all other stations are connected to.? It's pretty slick.

Comment:
Ok... noted.... that 99% figure is particularly exciting!!

Yes.. Raspberry Pi and other single board computers (SBCs) have really change things for projects like this.? There are a LOT of compromises with using a small computer like this (less reliable storage), slower I/O connectivity, etc. but for packet radio and many other HAM radio projects, they are perfect.

Thanks again, David.

Ok.. I've probably choked you with way too much information (I have a habit of doing that.. sorry).? It will be good stuff for you to research and as specific questions on if it's an interest to you.? Good luck with the project.


Btw.. this thread has been pretty off topic to Direwolf.? If you want to ask packet specific questions, this is a good place for it.? If you have more Raspberry Pi specific questions, consider joining which is a good place for that kind of thing (I'm on that list too).

73
--David
KI6ZHD

开云体育

Hi David,

I can't thank you and the other folks here profusely enough.? What a wealth of information for me to chew on!!

Fantastic thought about the pen drive idea... I have long known linux could be installed and used in this manner, but I have never actually done it myself, and it hadn't occurred to me for this project.

My window of time is now closed, at least for intensive, focused reading and studying.? For the next several weeks, my time devoteable

In the next available time, in addition to reading, and following the links that you have provided, I will be installing LinPac and getting acquainted with it, and acquainted with interfacing it with DireWolf.? I will also be trying my hand at seeing if I can set up a node on my home machine.

This is such a fun adventure; sure wish I had more time to devote to it.

Warm 73's,

Stan

Wow, there's a blast from the past!? I just ran across the UIChat v1.07 code the other day (it's on github now), and I even scrounged up some of the v2 code after an arduous search in the archives.

I have been "going down the road" that the OP was on also.? The UI frame (and AX.25 in general) is a rather cumbersome methodology that we have canonized for APRS and the rest.? APRS has been bastardized nearly beyond recognition now.? Time from some fresh meat.

The gears got to turning and I was thinking, "There has to be a better way." (because there is almost always a better way!).? So I did a search here to see if anyone had broached the subject of using Direwolf as nothing more than a CODEC (protocol-free Direwolf!? sounds like a political slogan), particularly the FEC variants now in play.? So in other words, if Direwolf will happily send and receive random data, I could then layer my own protocol and my typical extensions which make the "system" more flexible and manageable from an enterprise perspective.? I have an ARQ methodology that's a bit different than the AX.25 stuff, and geared well toward FEC enabled CODECs.

John, I have spent a LOT of time applying MQTT tech to radio systems in the past few years, so we have some common ground there as well.

Greetings once again all.? It's been a lot of years since I have been around this group.? Glad to see some familiar names still.

Regards,

Mitch
AB4MW

(formerly AC4IY)

Direwolf is perfectly happy with HDLC frames containing any random binary bytes.
It is not necessary to adhere to AX.25 format for the contents.
The KISS protocol is also perfectly happy with any binary data.

Please keep us informed on what you are up to.??

On the subject of MQTT, I would like to see more IoT activity using ham radio.
It seems like there would be many interesting applications.
Here is a prototype implementation for a gateway between MQTT and APRS messages.
?

Has anyone been doing anything with IoT over ham radio?

73,
John WB2OSZ