#MusicalInstrumentRepairs #RELS #RELS #MusicalInstrumentRepairs
|
One of the most common repairs other than pad and spring replacements on sax and woodwind instruments
is the fitting new pivot screws. These screws by there name pivot the keys and cups holding the pads to close and cover against the tone holes on the body of the instruments. I have attached 2 of 5 sheets that show the range in Metric and UNF a instrument repair technician is faced with. The different sizes used through the years in instrument manufacture through the world is to my knowledge is about 60. Availability of new purchases of screws or pivots is virtually impossible after instruments are 30 years old. So it?s a case of making new from bar stock. I currently use silver steel and or ex printer rods. Some of the metric threads for example 2 mm dia has a standard 0.5 mm pitch, a purchase of a die is possible, but 2 mm dia? x .4 p or 2 mm x .45 p? dies are not easy to find and expensive if a special order to make on is required. This where the RELS has certainly improved my response to making new screws. Currently I have all my bases covered in the selection of threads I need to cut, and I just scroll down and select through the? threads module shown on the LCD and select. As simple as that. I tend to select the manual threading as opposed to the automatic operation. Depth of threads normally? 0.866 of the pitch, but I layoff a fraction on major dia and thread depth. as some of the pivot post female threads that the screws are fitted into can be oversize due to wear. Evidence of this is if the screw is missing in the first place , as screws can wind themselves out, they never wind themselves in and tighten. Murphy?s law. The screw contact to pivot tapers are also cut using the taper function of the RELS. No messing with back gears or setting the compound slide to produce the taper. I do not have a compound slide. I use sharp HSS threading tools, normally 60 degree, unless repairing old pre WW2 Yamaha instruments that adopted a metric thread with a 55 degree flank angle. Gr!!!!!!!! After that, I part the screw off from the rod with a jewelers saw, turn round, face the head. Then into the mill and cut in the screwdriver slot, using a JS block, and a thin slitting saw. I normally will make 5 or 6 screws of the same size at a time, remembering to identify the sizes before putting away in my repair toolbox. LOL. Hope of interest. -- John |
|
A C melody saxophone.
Hand built in approx 1920 , Elkhart PA. Silver and gold plate over brass. It was in for a good scrub, new springs, new pads and a few screws missing. but replaced new by using the RELS . Job done. Time to make 6 screws 4 for stock 1 1/2 hours complete. Not possible a to cut a 2 mm dia x .45 mm pitch on a 7 x lathe using conventional change gears. The cleaning takes a while but worth the effort. The customer was very happy, and the instrument plays so sweet, I wanted to keep it myself.? Hope of interest and comments appreciated. Photo 5 shows the support posts attaching the rods and held in place with the pivot screws. -- John |
|
John, are those Yamaha screws Whitworth form, or sharp? I have worked on sewing machines a bit, and the Juki brand of industrial machines were mostly designed just after WWII, in Occupied Japan. They use some very odd US threads. 7/32-40, for instance, IIRC. That one held the safety shield in front of the needle. My former employer threw away one of their straight stitch machines some years ago, and it followed me home. I keep looking at it, and thinking "I could fix that!" IIRC, those screws were about $6 each. They didn't fix it because they decided it was going to cost too much to be worthwhile to repair. Currently I have no idea what I'm going to do with it. ;) Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)
On Saturday, July 11, 2020, 12:11:13 AM CDT, John Lindo <bechetboat@...> wrote:
One of the most common repairs other than pad and spring replacements on sax and woodwind instruments is the fitting new pivot screws. These screws by there name pivot the keys and cups holding the pads to close and cover against the tone holes on the body of the instruments. I have attached 2 of 5 sheets that show the range in Metric and UNF a instrument repair technician is faced with. The different sizes used through the years in instrument manufacture through the world is to my knowledge is about 60. Availability of new purchases of screws or pivots is virtually impossible after instruments are 30 years old. So it?s a case of making new from bar stock. I currently use silver steel and or ex printer rods. Some of the metric threads for example 2 mm dia has a standard 0.5 mm pitch, a purchase of a die is possible, but 2 mm dia? x .4 p or 2 mm x .45 p? dies are not easy to find and expensive if a special order to make on is required. This where the RELS has certainly improved my response to making new screws. Currently I have all my bases covered in the selection of threads I need to cut, and I just scroll down and select through the? threads module shown on the LCD and select. As simple as that. I tend to select the manual threading as opposed to the automatic operation. Depth of threads normally? 0.866 of the pitch, but I layoff a fraction on major dia and thread depth. as some of the pivot post female threads that the screws are fitted into can be oversize due to wear. Evidence of this is if the screw is missing in the first place , as screws can wind themselves out, they never wind themselves in and tighten. Murphy?s law. The screw contact to pivot tapers are also cut using the taper function of the RELS. No messing with back gears or setting the compound slide to produce the taper. I do not have a compound slide. I use sharp HSS threading tools, normally 60 degree, unless repairing old pre WW2 Yamaha instruments that adopted a metric thread with a 55 degree flank angle. Gr!!!!!!!! After that, I part the screw off from the rod with a jewelers saw, turn round, face the head. Then into the mill and cut in the screwdriver slot, using a JS block, and a thin slitting saw. I normally will make 5 or 6 screws of the same size at a time, remembering to identify the sizes before putting away in my repair toolbox. LOL. Hope of interest. -- John |
|
Bill I read as though you are a bit stitched up. LOL Stay safe? ?John On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 13:34, Bill in OKC too via <wmrmeyers=[email protected]> wrote:
--
John |
|
Yes, of interest! When my daughters were in high school, got a beautiful silver flute for the youngest in a pawn shop, cheap. Was not plated, so far as I could tell. Had some problems, and couldn't afford to have it fixed, and wasn't nearly good enough on the lathe to fix it myself. It got set aside, and I have no idea what happened to it after that. School provided a brass loaner flute, and things went on from there. I'm tone-deaf enough I could never learn to play anything after 5th grade. We moved the end of the year, and I had to give back the recorder I'd learned to play. Some years later I bought one of my own, but couldn't hear the difference in the notes. My dad had a 1954 Martin D28 Dreadnaught guitar that he would have given me if I could learn to play it. Couldn't do it. I am the only non-musical person in my family. :( Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)
On Saturday, July 11, 2020, 02:26:54 AM CDT, John Lindo <bechetboat@...> wrote:
A C melody saxophone. Hand built in approx 1920 , Elkhart PA. Silver and gold plate over brass. It was in for a good scrub, new springs, new pads and a few screws missing. but replaced new by using the RELS . Job done. Time to make 6 screws 4 for stock 1 1/2 hours complete. Not possible a to cut a 2 mm dia x .45 mm pitch on a 7 x lathe using conventional change gears. The cleaning takes a while but worth the effort. The customer was very happy, and the instrument plays so sweet, I wanted to keep it myself.? Hope of interest and comments appreciated. Photo 5 shows the support posts attaching the rods and held in place with the pivot screws. -- John |
|
Bill Your talents shine through in many other ways. Take care, stay well. John On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 at 13:42, Bill in OKC too via <wmrmeyers=[email protected]> wrote:
--
John |
|
John L, seeing a disassembled alto sax made me anxious, so glad you got it back together; this is my favorite wind instrument.? I kept my saxophone but haven't played for decades; our youngest son played it when he was in middle school too, it was made locally at Conn Selmer.? It would have been an easier walk to/from the bus stop, had I chose to play the flute!? Old Saxophones definitely sound different then new saxophones.
I am curious... you are using a CNC lathe to create your threads? and what are ex-printer rods made of??? And what software are you using? >>Currently I have all my bases covered in the selection of threads I need to cut, and I just scroll down and select through the?threads module shown on the LCD and select. My dream instrument to make is a violin though... I only got as far as purchasing a book from the UK. Tamra |
|
Tamra
The lathe is a basic 7 x 12 mini lathe. Converted with stepper motors on the Z axis (saddle) and X Cross slide. The lathe uses a system called ELS (Electronic Lead Screw) now renamed RELS (Russian ELS) which is not full on CNC. Basically the steppers are connected to a control box with a LCD display and select buttons, By paging through the various screens it?s possible to cut any pitch of thread,? be it internal/external, and select either manual or automatic (meaning hands free) machining. Any angular tapers including Morse Tapers pre loaded into the control. All is Arduino based driven, and new any additions needed, for Example I needed to cut a 0.45 mm pitch screw, this is? easily added to the stored library in the control box. Our good friend Richard UK (moderator) was the mastermind of the RELS and I know he is busily working on a newer version? to be evaluated soon.? I am not electronic wise savvy, but I cal always help in the mechanical end of a mini lathe digital conversion. Printer rods, basically a typical mild steel, chrome plated.Very easy to machine, produces good finishes, concentric, and sizes can range from? 2 mm dia up to 8 mm dia. within 0.01 mm of true size. if you see any old printers that have been discarded, I suggest you strip down for at least the rods. I use printer rod frequently to make instrument pivot screws. My error Elkhart Indiana. Conn was a very famous name in the US for musical instruments, Selmer again was one of the best makers in Paris France. They got together I think in 1980?s to form an alliance, possibly more of a commercial deal than anything else. I have owned both Conn and Selmer saxophones , totally different tones, it?s to do with the thickness of brass sheet they use during manufacture. I have been repairing be it part time instruments for over 25 years, most challenging is the soprano saxophone,? a lot of keys, pads, springs etc etc in a small area. I always take photos during repair, just in case I cannot remember how it all goes back together. I have been lucky so far, LOL but I play most brass and woodwind instruments so I test? after repairs before I pass back to the customer. Hope of interest John -- John |
|
My Alto Sax is the Martin Indiana Model... it is actually older than me...and still a beautiful horn... it does have a couple small dings at the bottom, from dear son's use and still has his marching band music in the case.? I really think it says, "Indiana" and there is an Indian engraving...so I did a google search to find "Indiana" is correct model name.??
Condition is still good; I looked at Serial numbers? for the neck and horn and they match... its is a beautiful instrument, so I will always keep it as my Dad bought it for me.? ?I don't know if it is a lacquer finish or gold plated finish but it is still beautiful; I had it repadded when our son started playing in middle school. So... back on topic for digital machining... the printer rods - assuming this is for ink jet printers???I must learn more about topic of threads and pitch.? I kept my BOB -CAD software, because I perceived the software did a decent job with threading metal? -? but vectric was so much easier to use for CAD/CAM.? I am a disassemble stuff pro - getting it back together and working is the real challenge.?? I will be looking at Richards RELS info; as I still haven't completed my CNC lathe project - still dealing with one last issue from My Dad's estate and then my mind will be less occupied. Tamra |
|
it?s off topic.but a reality check.
Conn versus Selmer. a snippet of an article I found reference a Selmer/Conn. ??? who knows. "Lots of guesses about who made this Tenor sax and when. Probably not Selmer. Probably not Kohlert.(Conn) as Selmer had a subsidiary in London, but probably not made there either. Pennsylvania's were their student line. Guessing post war, 50s/60s. Not really worth too much, sadly. A lot will depend on play-ability, pad condition and so on. " So that was what confused me between PA and IN.? Conn. the best instruments in the USA, till 1980?s then sadly went downhill. Selmer Paris preferred by the late great saxophonists. Paul Desmond. Gerry Mulligan, Stan Getz, but only Mk 5 and Mk 6. Check eBay for selling prices, but be sitting down. LOL All Mk 5 and Mk 6 were hand made from womb to tomb, No CNC, no robotics, no digitalhobbyist stuff .sorry about that. LOL but hand built and played by the artisan, then in about 1985 all famous instrument makers went downhill in favour of Japanese Yamaha. Same old story, Japanese had no HSA . so no leeches to society, no $25 an hour with sick pay etc etc. and local union chapters. and bearing in mind Yamaha were making violins in 1750 or earlier. You will never get back to the "gud olde days", as today no apprenticeships, nobody interested in real physical work,and most now only work from home with an Ipad. How sad is that.?? Oh well, at least I can repair old quality as I only work on "pro" instruments. I refuse to repair Chino $60 instruments, they are not worth the time and effort., and typical of today's youth, if broken, then throw it away.buy a new one.Nobody wants to learn to repair anything, Again off topic, but as we DH forum members. we can mix the new with the old, and still say, I have put in a good days work and have something you made to be proud of. Food for thought. -- John |
John Lindo
Bill in OKC too
Tamra