|
John D Thanks for a concise answer. ?
John L
It’s been 13 years.? Let’s see if I can remember.? Each turn of the stepper motor is 10 degrees or 160 steps per degree.? For 13 divisions in a circle we need 27.69230769230769 degrees or 4430.769230769231 steps.? But that’s a hard number to figure out. ? Distances on the ELS are set up as Motor steps per rev and lead screw pitch and finally distance per jog button. ? So 1600 steps per rev is fixed by the micro-stepping driver.? One revolution means 10 degrees on my rotary table so I’ll call that a Pitch of 10 TPI or 0.1” per rev or 0.01” per degree since one turn is 10 degrees. ? I have to move 360/13 for every jog so that’s 27.69230769230769 ?degrees. ??Multiply that by our 0.01” per degree and I enter into the jog distance 0.2769” which is the maximum resolution I’m allowed for entering numbers; not need to round up.? Once the enter key is tapped it shows to 3 digits or 0.277 but internally is still 0.2769” per jog press. ? With the table set at 0 then pressing the jog button 13 times brings me back around to 3.599 on the display.? ?The marks on the rotary table look like they are at exactly 0 again.? I think from a cumulative perspective over many turns the error would add up.? On one turn I doubt we’d see a difference. ? A test might be to use a gear cutter on a disk to cut 13 slots.? Then couple that to an encoder with 1000 lines or 4000 edges per rev.? Then measure the gap and tooth width in encoder counts. ? Then do the same thing with the arm and disks etc. the old fashioned way on a rotary table.? My guess is my rotary table (made in India) likely has imperfections in the worm and drive gear and the errors wouldn’t be any different. ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? ? ? ? Understand, but if you needed 13 divisions?? -------- Original message -------- Date: 5/16/24 07:09 (GMT+01:00) Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] #CNC gear cutting I took the easy route 13 years ago.? My ELS has the stepper motor drivers inside.? I connected to the rotary axis motor and configured the Lathe Z Axis parameters so each single jog step moved the number of degrees required for what I was doing.? When I was done I set the parameters back for the lathe and put it back on my South Bend. ?
? John Dammeyer ? ? This is similar to what I built, I attached a belt and pulley and not direct drive. The Arduino sketch composed by Gary Liming is the same. ? Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task . thanks animal On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote: I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis. The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box. Photo 1 CNC gear cutting. Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath? is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.? No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL. Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls. Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module. A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file. Hope all of you are interested. ? Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ? thanks animal On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote: Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
--
John
--
John
|
It’s been 13 years.? Let’s see if I can remember.? Each turn of the stepper motor is 10 degrees or 160 steps per degree.? For 13 divisions in a circle we need 27.69230769230769 degrees or 4430.769230769231 steps.? But that’s a hard number to figure out. ? Distances on the ELS are set up as Motor steps per rev and lead screw pitch and finally distance per jog button. ? So 1600 steps per rev is fixed by the micro-stepping driver.? One revolution means 10 degrees on my rotary table so I’ll call that a Pitch of 10 TPI or 0.1” per rev or 0.01” per degree since one turn is 10 degrees. ? I have to move 360/13 for every jog so that’s 27.69230769230769 ?degrees. ??Multiply that by our 0.01” per degree and I enter into the jog distance 0.2769” which is the maximum resolution I’m allowed for entering numbers; not need to round up.? Once the enter key is tapped it shows to 3 digits or 0.277 but internally is still 0.2769” per jog press. ? With the table set at 0 then pressing the jog button 13 times brings me back around to 3.599 on the display.? ?The marks on the rotary table look like they are at exactly 0 again.? I think from a cumulative perspective over many turns the error would add up.? On one turn I doubt we’d see a difference. ? A test might be to use a gear cutter on a disk to cut 13 slots.? Then couple that to an encoder with 1000 lines or 4000 edges per rev.? Then measure the gap and tooth width in encoder counts. ? Then do the same thing with the arm and disks etc. the old fashioned way on a rotary table.? My guess is my rotary table (made in India) likely has imperfections in the worm and drive gear and the errors wouldn’t be any different. ? John Dammeyer ? ? ? ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lindo
Sent: May 16, 2024 3:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] #CNC gear cutting? Understand, but if you needed 13 divisions?? -------- Original message -------- From: "John Dammeyer via groups.io" <johnd@...> Date: 5/16/24 07:09 (GMT+01:00) Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] #CNC gear cutting I took the easy route 13 years ago.? My ELS has the stepper motor drivers inside.? I connected to the rotary axis motor and configured the Lathe Z Axis parameters so each single jog step moved the number of degrees required for what I was doing.? When I was done I set the parameters back for the lathe and put it back on my South Bend. ?
? John Dammeyer ? ? This is similar to what I built, I attached a belt and pulley and not direct drive. The Arduino sketch composed by Gary Liming is the same. ? Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task . thanks animal On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote: I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis. The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box. Photo 1 CNC gear cutting. Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath? is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.? No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL. Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls. Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module. A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file. Hope all of you are interested. ? Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ? thanks animal On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote: Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
--
John
|
Understand, but if you needed 13 divisions?? John
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: "John Dammeyer via groups.io" <johnd@...> Date: 5/16/24 07:09 (GMT+01:00) Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] #CNC gear cutting
I took the easy route 13 years ago.? My ELS has the stepper motor drivers inside.? I connected to the rotary axis motor and configured the Lathe Z Axis parameters so each single jog step moved the number of degrees required for what I was doing.? When I was done I set the parameters back for the lathe and put it back on my South Bend. ?
? John Dammeyer ? ? This is similar to what I built, I attached a belt and pulley and not direct drive. The Arduino sketch composed by Gary Liming is the same. ? Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task . thanks animal On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote: I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis. The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box. Photo 1 CNC gear cutting. Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath? is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.? No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL. Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls. Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module. A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file. Hope all of you are interested. ? Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ? thanks animal On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote: Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
-- John
|
I took the easy route 13 years ago.? My ELS has the stepper motor drivers inside.? I connected to the rotary axis motor and configured the Lathe Z Axis parameters so each single jog step moved the number of degrees required for what I was doing.? When I was done I set the parameters back for the lathe and put it back on my South Bend. ?
? John Dammeyer ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Lindo
Sent: May 15, 2024 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [digitalhobbyist] #CNC gear cutting? This is similar to what I built, I attached a belt and pulley and not direct drive. The Arduino sketch composed by Gary Liming is the same. ? Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task . thanks animal On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote: I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis. The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box. Photo 1 CNC gear cutting. Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath? is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.? No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL. Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls. Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module. A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file. Hope all of you are interested. ? Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ? thanks animal On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote: Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
|
I got Pacific Scientific? nema 23 steppers that came with the
MaxNC10 mini ( real mini ) CNC mill that a friend passed on to me
before he died . It originally ran off one of the many DOS 's out
there . SO I stripped all the hardware down to just the steppers .
Had to make cables for the steppers ,? their 8 wire motors . I 'm
trying to use a Arduio Uno with a CNC shield & some TB6600
drivers for the steppers .? I had it together once & had the
steppers moving & recognizing UGS ( universal G-code sender )
& then something changed , & I've never gotten them to
talk to each other again no idea what went south . Right now it's
on the back burner till I get other projects that are taking up
space . Both of my Oscilloscopes are dead . I loaned one to a bud
( or so I thought so ) old scope but still had many miles left on
it a HP1740A . He broke the feet off the back which in turn caused
the fuse holder to get shoved in & broke . I fixed the fuse
holder but I can't get it to trigger on anything . I'm gonna open
it up again & look for any obvious swollen caps . It will be a
bit for me to get the rotary table stuff together . I'm working on
a Arduino project rite now that's causing grief .? I have a tach
we've been working on? finally got it fairly stable except for
debouncing . trying to get a Smidtt trigger that works to fix the
bounce issue . Those learn Arduino youtubes in 30 minutes are full
of it .
thanks
animal
On 5/15/24 10:26 AM, John Lindo wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi mike
What stepper motor and driver boards are you using.
Send photos if possible of the rotary table, control box and
attach the Arduino .ino file. and schematic.
I am no expert but prepared to wade in, even maybe I have
sufficient? "lecky" bits around me to set up a bench build and
test.
--
John
|
Hi Mike
This is similar to what I built, I attached a belt and pulley and not direct drive. The Arduino sketch composed by Gary Liming is the same.
Cheers
John
Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one
of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had
something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with
the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC
shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last
I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks
like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4
nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are
up to the task .
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote:
Mike.
I
have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23
steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also
has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis.
The
mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box
connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,?
also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the
way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a
control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV
ver 2.1 box.
Photo
1 CNC gear cutting.
Photo
2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power
supply boxes, the box underneath?
is
the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially
were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the
crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear
perspex.?
No
room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls
and ceiling for any available space.LOL.
Photos
of power feed X Y Z operators controls.
Photo
of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has
several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE
45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all
depends on the
project,?
step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree
selected and a Division module.
A
very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code
also a complete "how to" build info file.
Hope
all of you are interested.
John
Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if
we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck
pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the
alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2
pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone,
indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down
the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9
divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow
head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the
machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand
wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0
degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0
and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but
decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who
will disagree with this approach to making basically an
old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you
attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and
pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2
pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first
one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
|
Hi mike
What stepper motor and driver boards are you using.
Send photos if possible of the rotary table, control box and attach the Arduino .ino file. and schematic.
I am no expert but prepared to wade in, even maybe I have sufficient? "lecky" bits around me to set up a bench build and test.
--
John
|
Mike Check your email I just sent you, possibly in your spam box.
Cheers John
Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one
of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had
something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with
the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC
shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last
I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks
like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4
nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are
up to the task .
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote:
Mike.
I
have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23
steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also
has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis.
The
mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box
connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,?
also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the
way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a
control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV
ver 2.1 box.
Photo
1 CNC gear cutting.
Photo
2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power
supply boxes, the box underneath?
is
the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially
were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the
crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear
perspex.?
No
room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls
and ceiling for any available space.LOL.
Photos
of power feed X Y Z operators controls.
Photo
of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has
several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE
45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all
depends on the
project,?
step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree
selected and a Division module.
A
very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code
also a complete "how to" build info file.
Hope
all of you are interested.
John
Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if
we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck
pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the
alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2
pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone,
indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down
the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9
divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow
head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the
machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand
wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0
degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0
and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but
decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who
will disagree with this approach to making basically an
old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you
attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and
pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2
pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first
one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
--
John
|
Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one
of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had
something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with
the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC
shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last
I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks
like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4
nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are
up to the task .
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Mike.
I
have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23
steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also
has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis.
The
mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box
connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,?
also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the
way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a
control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV
ver 2.1 box.
Photo
1 CNC gear cutting.
Photo
2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power
supply boxes, the box underneath?
is
the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially
were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the
crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear
perspex.?
No
room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls
and ceiling for any available space.LOL.
Photos
of power feed X Y Z operators controls.
Photo
of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has
several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE
45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all
depends on the
project,?
step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree
selected and a Division module.
A
very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code
also a complete "how to" build info file.
Hope
all of you are interested.
John
Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if
we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck
pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the
alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2
pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone,
indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down
the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9
divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow
head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the
machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand
wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0
degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0
and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but
decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who
will disagree with this approach to making basically an
old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you
attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and
pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2
pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first
one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
|
Mike. I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis. The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box. Photo 1 CNC gear cutting. Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath? is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.? No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL. Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls. Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module. A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file. Hope all of you are interested. John
Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can
. I forget what is yer CNC machine ?
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions,
I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck
scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion
blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer
set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40
degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the
teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine
to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel,
rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then
ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran
the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided
not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will
disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type
set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached
is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a
Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions
to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I
should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
Thanks
--
John
--
John
|
Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can
. I forget what is yer CNC machine ?
thanks
animal
On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions,
I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck
scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion
blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer
set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40
degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the
teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine
to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel,
rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then
ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran
the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided
not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will
disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type
set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached
is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a
Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions
to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I
should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
Thanks
--
John
|
Plus a screenshot?of the Mastercam CAD (drafting) calculating the incline of the toolpath required. Thanks
Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
Thanks
--
John
--
John
|
Hi Mike and members. Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL. Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without? any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up. To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front? portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth. See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times. This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting. Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,? then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.? I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze. I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears, and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train. but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.? see attachments. Thanks  -- John
|
Mike
Thanks for sharing, ?I have never seen a horizontal double stroke. Fantastic engineering, I am guessing this Gleason? machine was built in the early 1970s ?? Setting up the machine and installing?the opposing tooling required a lot?of skill I am sure.
?
I asked over on the PM forum how pinion gears were made , &
here's the 2 reply's I got
.
I expect the oldest ones were simply machined from bar stock.
Later, they could also be cold formed, hot formed, sintered
powdered metal or investment cast, to name some possibilities.
?you
can see a common way to cut bevels. Towards the end you can see
how the cutters work. One cutter does each side of the tooth,
and the reason you see the cutter head rotating towards the end
is, the bevel is a cone. The workpiece is also rotating, this is
to create teeth that are fatter at the outside end. It's two
cones rotating against each other.
It's
also two cutters because the teeth are tapered. A single cutter
can't get fat and skinny each stroke as it goes back and forth
so you need one for each side, at an angle. You can see the
angle.
It's
also a pretty old machine, I've never seen a 12 that didn't have
hydraulic clamping
MUTE
THE MUSIC!!!!!!
if
ya don't can't say I didn't warn ya .
pretty
darn cool machine
animal
On 5/8/24 1:38 PM, John Lindo wrote:
Charlie.
thanks.
I
may have to go the route of fly cutting, making an involute
bit. I am sure the problem is surrounded by the?
major
dia of the Mod 2 12-?13 T?which is 58 mm dia.
I
had no issues with the spiral/bevel gear as I managed to be
able to use the full diameter of the gear cutter.
Again
the indexer and the drive stepper motor cranked at 20 degrees,
the area for the teeth was also turned?at 20 degrees.
It's
very difficult to measure the end of cut radius of the
existing toolhouse chuck pinions, I get something like
a
12 mm rad, thus maybe making a fly cutting tool that has a
total swing of 24 - 25 mm dia.
I
dont think a "d" bit would cut it sorry for the PUN as they
say LOL, normally these are used for?
reaming
into an existing hole, IE no zero side load, also turning a
tool with an involute shape would require some?
type
of radius toolholder.?
Making
a bit should not be a problem, use 10 mm dia drill rod, an 8
mm end mill in a vertical mill and with several X and Y moves
would get me pretty close to a Mod 2 involute. I have Ivan
Law?s
Cheers
John
Hi,
John,
I'm no gear expert like you. I did notice, however, that, in
the original pinion, the lowest space at the root of the space
between teeth seems to be a constant width. If one mentally
restores the angle cut on the O.D. of the blank, It almost
looks like some specialized vertical end
mill was used to cut the shape. Might it be possible to
fabricate an equivalent, perhaps some kind of D-bit? I know
that the challenge would be the side loads without a guiding
pin on the end.
Just a thought...?
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA
NOTE:
No trees were injured in the sending of this
message,
but
a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
--
John
--
John
|
I asked over on the PM forum how pinion gears were made , &
here's the 2 reply's I got
.
I expect the oldest ones were simply machined from bar stock.
Later, they could also be cold formed, hot formed, sintered
powdered metal or investment cast, to name some possibilities.
?you
can see a common way to cut bevels. Towards the end you can see
how the cutters work. One cutter does each side of the tooth,
and the reason you see the cutter head rotating towards the end
is, the bevel is a cone. The workpiece is also rotating, this is
to create teeth that are fatter at the outside end. It's two
cones rotating against each other.
It's
also two cutters because the teeth are tapered. A single cutter
can't get fat and skinny each stroke as it goes back and forth
so you need one for each side, at an angle. You can see the
angle.
It's
also a pretty old machine, I've never seen a 12 that didn't have
hydraulic clamping
MUTE
THE MUSIC!!!!!!
if
ya don't can't say I didn't warn ya .
pretty
darn cool machine
animal
On 5/8/24 1:38 PM, John Lindo wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Charlie.
thanks.
I
may have to go the route of fly cutting, making an involute
bit. I am sure the problem is surrounded by the?
major
dia of the Mod 2 12-?13 T?which is 58 mm dia.
I
had no issues with the spiral/bevel gear as I managed to be
able to use the full diameter of the gear cutter.
Again
the indexer and the drive stepper motor cranked at 20 degrees,
the area for the teeth was also turned?at 20 degrees.
It's
very difficult to measure the end of cut radius of the
existing toolhouse chuck pinions, I get something like
a
12 mm rad, thus maybe making a fly cutting tool that has a
total swing of 24 - 25 mm dia.
I
dont think a "d" bit would cut it sorry for the PUN as they
say LOL, normally these are used for?
reaming
into an existing hole, IE no zero side load, also turning a
tool with an involute shape would require some?
type
of radius toolholder.?
Making
a bit should not be a problem, use 10 mm dia drill rod, an 8
mm end mill in a vertical mill and with several X and Y moves
would get me pretty close to a Mod 2 involute. I have Ivan
Law?s
Cheers
John
Hi,
John,
I'm no gear expert like you. I did notice, however, that, in
the original pinion, the lowest space at the root of the space
between teeth seems to be a constant width. If one mentally
restores the angle cut on the O.D. of the blank, It almost
looks like some specialized vertical end
mill was used to cut the shape. Might it be possible to
fabricate an equivalent, perhaps some kind of D-bit? I know
that the challenge would be the side loads without a guiding
pin on the end.
Just a thought...?
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA
NOTE:
No trees were injured in the sending of this
message,
but
a large number of electrons were terribly
inconvenienced.
--
John
|
Bronze, phosphor or otherwise, won't be a strong as steel, but should be plenty strong and tough. It's also more expensive, but provides good bearing surfaces for parts that rub or slide against one another. It's probably going to be pretty, too!?
I probably missed where you mentioned that. I'm spending a lot of my time sleep deprived, and frequently interrupted in my reading.?
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 11:34:17 PM CDT, John Lindo <bechetboat@...> wrote:
Thanks Bill.
The ring scroll and pinions I will eventually use phosphor bronze, sorry if I did not make this clear, aluminium I am using for form fit and function only, plus cost and reduced time to machine
Cheers
John
On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 01:26, Bill in OKC too via <wmrmeyers= [email protected]> wrote: Forgings are not accurate enough for a precision tool. It's got to be properly machined and tough enough to withstand the forces applied.
If you really want this chuck to last, I'd suggest the pinion be good tool steel. Aluminum won't be tough enough. And it galls easily.?
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 03:04:00 PM CDT, John Lindo < bechetboat@...> wrote:
Mike I thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached ? A female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.? Then hardened and cylindrical ground. Provided I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it. The indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth? will stay the same I think. LOL?? I will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment. Cheers John
I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .
animal
On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the
teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking
like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the
parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20
deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a
standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a
tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller
dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly
cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the
cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along
the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the
point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also
machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the
other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking
ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far
as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be
parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for
the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.
   
marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor
bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.
?
--
John
-- John
--
John
|
A search on the web brought this article up. Posted by?Bob N?on May 01, 2007 at 14:09:02: In Reply to:??posted by??on April 27, 2007 at 11:43:57: The completed pinion was completed. It took about 40 minutes to make the mill jig, about 1-1/2 hours to make the pinion blank and its integral shaft and to cut a keyway for the reference gear (It also included a pilot at the small end of the pinion and threading at the end of the shaft to lock it to the jig.) On of the more challenging items was making a mill cutter and hand grinding to sharpen the two cutting flutes.
Once I had the setup installed on the mill, it took about an hour to cut the 11 teeth.
After it was completed, I installed it in the lathe chuck to test. It was fully functional, but does exhibit a small amount of binding on one small sector of the ring gear, but not enough to be considered problematic. Before I harden the gear, I plan to work it against the ring gear to smooth out the small amount of binding.
Lessons learned:
I cut the teeth in two steps. First step was with the jig holding the blank so the 15 degree bevel would allow the cutter to gradually cut into the blank (Zero depth at small end, migrated to full tooth depth at large end). I then reset the jig for a 0 degree cant, so that the cutter would give full depth cut of each tooth. This is one area where my expertise fell a bit short. I had ground the cutter contour to exactly match tooth contour. I should have made the cutter a bit smaller than that, because the result was that I got some taper to the teeth which were slightly undersize.
If I were to make it again, I would not have made the full depth cut with the blank at 15 degrees, I would use 8 to 10 and make the cutter contour smaller, which would reduce the tooth taper significantly.
Bottom Line: I now have a fully functional chuck.
Note: I had tried to find the pinion at several places, but replacement parts for this 5 inch chucks are not available. My 100 mm chuck pinions and scroll ring are definitely?20 degrees (40 degree incl) that I am replicating . Up to a point, provided both pinions and the scroll ring teeth angles pair up it does not matter. Cheers John
The cutter drag could be that there was some cleanup machining
dome to the pinions after forging ?
animal
On 5/8/24 1:03 PM, John Lindo wrote:
Mike
I
thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite
score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached
?
A
female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.?
Then
hardened and cylindrical ground.
Provided
I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the
blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently
so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the
ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it.
The
indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis
so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth?
will
stay the same I think. LOL??
I
will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are
getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment.
Cheers
John
I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured
chuck .
animal
On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth
pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank
pinion, the teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in
fact they are looking like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of
the parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the
indexer to 20 deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the
cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia
is a standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought
from a tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a
special smaller dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a
fly cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly
reducing the cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves
along the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm,
keeping the point of contact of the cutter circumference
constant. I have also machined on the lathe new pinion
blanks, making them longer as the other current problem
being the cutter hits the collet locking ring even though
I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far as I
dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will
be parted off to length and a square milled in for the
chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra
long for the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the
serrated ring.
   
marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the
phosphor bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to
short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.
?
--
John
--
John
--
John
|
Thanks Bill.
The ring scroll and pinions I will eventually use phosphor bronze, sorry if I did not make this clear, aluminium I am using for form fit and function only, plus cost and reduced time to machine
Cheers
John
On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 01:26, Bill in OKC too via <wmrmeyers= [email protected]> wrote: Forgings are not accurate enough for a precision tool. It's got to be properly machined and tough enough to withstand the forces applied.
If you really want this chuck to last, I'd suggest the pinion be good tool steel. Aluminum won't be tough enough. And it galls easily.?
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 03:04:00 PM CDT, John Lindo < bechetboat@...> wrote:
Mike I thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached ? A female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.? Then hardened and cylindrical ground. Provided I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it. The indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth? will stay the same I think. LOL?? I will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment. Cheers John
I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .
animal
On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the
teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking
like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the
parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20
deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a
standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a
tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller
dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly
cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the
cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along
the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the
point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also
machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the
other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking
ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far
as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be
parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for
the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.
   
marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor
bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.
?
--
John
-- John
--
John
|
Forgings are not accurate enough for a precision tool. It's got to be properly machined and tough enough to withstand the forces applied.
If you really want this chuck to last, I'd suggest the pinion be good tool steel. Aluminum won't be tough enough. And it galls easily.?
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 03:04:00 PM CDT, John Lindo <bechetboat@...> wrote:
Mike I thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached ? A female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.? Then hardened and cylindrical ground. Provided I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it. The indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth? will stay the same I think. LOL?? I will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment. Cheers John
I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .
animal
On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:
Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the
teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking
like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the
parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20
deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a
standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a
tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller
dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly
cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the
cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along
the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the
point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also
machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the
other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking
ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far
as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be
parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for
the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.
   
marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor
bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.
?
--
John
--
John
|
Charlie. thanks. I may have to go the route of fly cutting, making an involute bit. I am sure the problem is surrounded by the? major dia of the Mod 2 12-?13 T?which is 58 mm dia. I had no issues with the spiral/bevel gear as I managed to be able to use the full diameter of the gear cutter. Again the indexer and the drive stepper motor cranked at 20 degrees, the area for the teeth was also turned?at 20 degrees. It's very difficult to measure the end of cut radius of the existing toolhouse chuck pinions, I get something like a 12 mm rad, thus maybe making a fly cutting tool that has a total swing of 24 - 25 mm dia. I dont think a "d" bit would cut it sorry for the PUN as they say LOL, normally these are used for? reaming into an existing hole, IE no zero side load, also turning a tool with an involute shape would require some? type of radius toolholder.? Making a bit should not be a problem, use 10 mm dia drill rod, an 8 mm end mill in a vertical mill and with several X and Y moves would get me pretty close to a Mod 2 involute. I have Ivan Law?s Cheers John
Hi, John,
I'm no gear expert like you. I did notice, however, that, in the original pinion, the lowest space at the root of the space between teeth seems to be a constant width. If one mentally restores the angle cut on the O.D. of the blank, It almost looks like some specialized vertical end mill was used to cut the shape. Might it be possible to fabricate an equivalent, perhaps some kind of D-bit? I know that the challenge would be the side loads without a guiding pin on the end.
Just a thought...?
--
Regards,
Charlie
New Jersey, USA
NOTE: No trees were injured in the sending of this message,
but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
--
John
|
John Lindo
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Bill in OKC too