I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .

animal

On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20 deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.


marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.

?

--
John

Hi, John,

I'm no gear expert like you. I did notice, however, that, in the original pinion, the lowest space at the root of the space between teeth seems to be a constant width. If one mentally restores the angle cut on the O.D. of the blank, It almost looks like some specialized vertical end mill was used to cut the shape. Might it be possible to fabricate an equivalent, perhaps some kind of D-bit? I know that the challenge would be the side loads without a guiding pin on the end.

Just a thought...?
--
Regards,

Charlie
New Jersey, USA

NOTE: No trees were injured in the sending of this message,

but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Forgings are not accurate enough for a precision tool. It's got to be properly machined and tough enough to withstand the forces applied.

If you really want this chuck to last, I'd suggest the pinion be good tool steel. Aluminum won't be tough enough. And it galls easily.?

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?

SEMPER GUMBY!

Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.

Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 03:04:00 PM CDT, John Lindo <bechetboat@...> wrote:

Mike

I thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached ?

A female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.?

Then hardened and cylindrical ground.

Provided I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it.

The indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth?

will stay the same I think. LOL??

I will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment.

Cheers

John

On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 20:49, mike allen via <animal=[email protected]> wrote:

I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .

animal

On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20 deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.


marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.

?

--
John

--
John

The cutter drag could be that there was some cleanup machining dome to the pinions after forging ?

animal

On 5/8/24 1:03 PM, John Lindo wrote:

Mike

I thought that they may be drop forged, but there are definite score lines of a cutter drag ? or maybe they could be broached ?

A female pot broach, and the pinion blank pushed from the top.?

Then hardened and cylindrical ground.

Provided I use the full diameter of the gear cutter, IE protruding the blank pinion to be cut out of the indexing collet sufficiently so at the end of the X axis travel the cutter does not hit the ER serrated clamping ring, I may get away with it.

The indexer head will need?to be twisted 20 degrees to the X axis so then the depth of the cut along the pinion teeth?

will stay the same I think. LOL??

I will let you know soon.? musical instrument repairs are getting in the way of this fun conundrum at the moment.

Cheers

John

On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 20:49, mike allen via <animal=[email protected]> wrote:

I think the " Pinions " are forged in a manufactured chuck .

animal

On 5/8/24 1:00 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Struggling a bit with the 9 tooth pinion gear cutting.
I have only a Mod 2 12-13 T gear cutter.
My problem being as i move the cutter into the blank pinion, the teeth wall between the teeth decreases, in fact they are looking like a wedge
and will not mesh with the scroll gear teeth. see photo of the parts marked 2 3?
The reason I think is even though I have twisted the indexer to 20 deg. (40 degrees inclusive angle) as the cutter?
moves in then the cutting diameter changes, the cutter dia is a standard 58 mm, the teeth are only 12 mm long.
I think the the original pinion teeth of a chuck bought from a tool supplier see photo marked 1 were hobbed, or a special smaller dia gear cutter was used.
There may be several ways around my problem, (a) to make a fly cutter tip with the involute form, thus greatly reducing the cutter circumference,
the other option is (b) to CNC cut, When the X axis moves along the 12 mm then the? Y axis? will move out 4.386 mm, keeping the point of contact of the cutter circumference constant. I have also machined on the lathe new pinion blanks, making them longer as the other current problem being the cutter hits the collet locking ring even though I am hanging the blanks out of the collet as far as I dare. Once finished with the gear cutting, the blanks will be parted off to length and a square milled in for the chuck key.
Photo shows marked 4, a double ended pinion blank, extra long for the collet holder to avoid the cutter hitting the serrated ring.


marked as 2 , a aluminium proto before I attack LOL the phosphor bronze, already scrapped one piece, it was to short anyway.
Any advise on how to get around this, then always welcome.

?

--
John

--
John

I asked over on the PM forum how pinion gears were made , & here's the 2 reply's I got

. I expect the oldest ones were simply machined from bar stock. Later, they could also be cold formed, hot formed, sintered powdered metal or investment cast, to name some possibilities.

?you can see a common way to cut bevels. Towards the end you can see how the cutters work. One cutter does each side of the tooth, and the reason you see the cutter head rotating towards the end is, the bevel is a cone. The workpiece is also rotating, this is to create teeth that are fatter at the outside end. It's two cones rotating against each other.

It's also two cutters because the teeth are tapered. A single cutter can't get fat and skinny each stroke as it goes back and forth so you need one for each side, at an angle. You can see the angle.

It's also a pretty old machine, I've never seen a 12 that didn't have hydraulic clamping

MUTE THE MUSIC!!!!!!

if ya don't can't say I didn't warn ya .

pretty darn cool machine

animal

On 5/8/24 1:38 PM, John Lindo wrote:

Charlie. thanks.

I may have to go the route of fly cutting, making an involute bit. I am sure the problem is surrounded by the?

major dia of the Mod 2 12-?13 T?which is 58 mm dia.

I had no issues with the spiral/bevel gear as I managed to be able to use the full diameter of the gear cutter.

Again the indexer and the drive stepper motor cranked at 20 degrees, the area for the teeth was also turned?at 20 degrees.

It's very difficult to measure the end of cut radius of the existing toolhouse chuck pinions, I get something like

a 12 mm rad, thus maybe making a fly cutting tool that has a total swing of 24 - 25 mm dia.

I dont think a "d" bit would cut it sorry for the PUN as they say LOL, normally these are used for?

reaming into an existing hole, IE no zero side load, also turning a tool with an involute shape would require some?

type of radius toolholder.?

Making a bit should not be a problem, use 10 mm dia drill rod, an 8 mm end mill in a vertical mill and with several X and Y moves would get me pretty close to a Mod 2 involute. I have Ivan Law?s

Cheers

John

On Wed, 8 May 2024 at 20:26, CLevinski via <clevinski=[email protected]> wrote:

Hi, John,

I'm no gear expert like you. I did notice, however, that, in the original pinion, the lowest space at the root of the space between teeth seems to be a constant width. If one mentally restores the angle cut on the O.D. of the blank, It almost looks like some specialized vertical end mill was used to cut the shape. Might it be possible to fabricate an equivalent, perhaps some kind of D-bit? I know that the challenge would be the side loads without a guiding pin on the end.

Just a thought...?
--
Regards,

Charlie
New Jersey, USA

NOTE: No trees were injured in the sending of this message,

but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

--
John

Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
Thanks

--
John

Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?

thanks

animal

On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.
Thanks

--
John

Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task .

thanks

animal

On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote:

Mike.

I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis.

The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box.

Photo 1 CNC gear cutting.

Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath?

is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.?

No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL.

Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls.

Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the

project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module.

A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file.

Hope all of you are interested.

John

On Tue, 14 May 2024 at 20:25, mike allen via <animal=[email protected]> wrote:

Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?

thanks

animal

On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.

Cool thanks . I built one of the Arduino rotary tables from one of the forums but never got it to work , pretty sure it had something to do with my stepper driver boards , same thing with the L'il MaxNC that I tried to convert over to Arduino using a CNC shield . I wanted to get setup to make graduated dials , but last I looked into it Grbl didn't support a 4th axis . Mach3 just looks like it's too complicated for me at this stage . I do have the 4 nema 24 steppers that came with the Max, so I know that they are up to the task .

thanks

animal

On 5/14/24 1:23 PM, John Lindo wrote:

Mike.

I have a mini Weiss 16AV mill that I fitted with Nema 23 steppers to the X Y Z and a homemade indexing?head that also has a Nema 23 that I use for the fourth A axis.

The mill can be used for simple power feed from a control box connected to push button feeds and rapid mounted on the mill,? also a different separate set of cables to the steppers by the way of 4 x quick release plugs and these feed into a control?box (drivers etc) that receives info from a CNC DDCSV ver 2.1 box.

Photo 1 CNC gear cutting.

Photo 2 The Red box, Power feed unit with DM 542 steppers and power supply boxes, the box underneath?

is the steppers and power supply for the CNC. Box boxes initially were originally tea storage boxes from a Chinese shop, the crystal glass was taken out and I replaced them with clear perspex.?

No room in the workshop bench areas, so I have to use the walls and ceiling for any available space.LOL.

Photos of power feed X Y Z operators controls.

Photo of a homemade Arduino step indexing control box, It has several setting commands, set Ratio, (currently I use 1:1) IE 45T stepper 45T indexer, but I can select? 90:1 45:10 all depends on the

project,? step Jog, Continual run, Angular moves per any full degree selected and a Division module.

A very useful piece of kit in the armoury. I have the .ino code also a complete "how to" build info file.

Hope all of you are interested.

John

On Tue, 14 May 2024 at 20:25, mike allen via <animal=[email protected]> wrote:

Nice Job ! This is why we do things like this , to see if we can . I forget what is yer CNC machine ?

thanks

animal

On 5/14/24 10:51 AM, John Lindo wrote:

Hi Mike and members.
Finally got there with the gear cutting of the 9 T chuck pinions, I think LOL.
Only cut one so far, but entering the pinion into the alloy chuck scroll ring/gear, the pinion rotates without?
any jamming etc. The acid test will be to cut the other 2 pinion blanks and see if they all marry up.
To remove the arrow head created by cutting down a cone, indexer set at 20 degrees, the gear cutter running down the front?
portion of cone IE parallel to the X axis, cut 9 divisions, 40 degrees rotation, thus creating the arrow head effect between the teeth.
See the 12 line handwritten g code, basically I? tell the machine to do a function, in this case repeat 9 times.
This is a very useful code for simple gear cutting.
Then with the MPG, CNC, manual pulse generator, hand wheel, rotated the A axis +4 degrees, set A to home 0 degrees and then ran the programme again,?
then with the MPG set? to -8 degrees , again reset? A to 0 and ran the programme again.?
I could of consolidated basically 3 programmes into 1 but decided not to risk scrapping the phosphor bronze.
I agree that there will be so many armchair engineers who will disagree with this approach to making basically an old mangle type set of bevel gears,
and yes the 2 cutter approach as seen in your video you attached is the way to go if it was a crown wheel and pinion set for a Formula one drive train.
but this works for me and I am confident that the next 2 pinions to be cut if I follow what I just did on the first one then I should be home and dry.?
see attachments.