Hi Christine,
We already covered the Bible stuff.? All the rest is just speculation.? Regarding whether or not the disembodied souls are surprised, I would suspect that any sentient soul will be.? We're dealing with really important extremes, after all.??
What I would like to address is your comment, "souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny."? I don't agree.? Of course,? I don't really know, but that would seem to negate the need for the Great White Throne Judgement, and probably the Sheep and Goats Judgement as well.? I see God as compassionate, fair, AND efficient. [My second engineering degree was a B.Sc. in Industrial Engineering, after all.]? I mean why punish a soul for up to 1,000 years or so, only to present before a Judge to hear, "What are you here for? Go back to Hades."? Plus, both the Sheep and Goats Judgement and the Great White Throne Judgement are real judgments, where the verdict could be positive ("Join the sheep") or not ("You goat!").
So, to my simple mind, Christine, I respectfully disagree about eternal destiny and punishment or reward occurring at the moment of death.? I'd rather take the Bible as written.
Blessings,
Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 04:58:51 pm AEST, Christine <cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Thanks, Ray,
You are correct in assuming that my query didn't concern the nature/purpose of the 3 major judgements, but that, at the moment of death and prior to the Throne Judgements, souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny, and either punishment or reward commences then, and there even if the setting is just an anteroom , as it were.
Do you think the outcome is based on individual's life choices and so they are not necessarily surprised about where they find themselves?
Hi Christine, I rushed out my last answer.? Rereading it I realised that my last sentence
should read, “Well, it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if Abraham
goes childless, he names his chief servant, who we find is named ‘Eliezer/Eleazar,’
as his heir.”
You wrote, “Furthermore, the narrative would
indicate that judgment occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection
and before our Judge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would
appreciate further thoughts.”
The New Testament lists three judgments, the Bema
Seat Judgment (2 Cor 5:10;?1 Cor 3:11–15), the
Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matt 25:31–46), and the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).? None of them occurs at the moment of
death.
Only saved believers appear before the Bema Seat. People
who believe in a Rapture believe that this judgment will occur AFTER the
Rapture occurs.? Salvation isn’t the
issue, because Jesus nailed that on the Cross.?
This is where the foundation that the deceased believers' built-in life
is judged: “gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble.”? It’s not the person being judged, that has
already been done and they passed.? It’s
their works (what they did with their justification).
The Sheep and Goat Judgment?occurs on or soon
after the Second Coming (before the Millennium begins). All the nations
(people) shall be gathered before Jesus and he will separate them one from
another on the basis of their works, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the
goats.
The Great White Throne?occurs at the end of the?Millennium.? It judges the unsaved dead for salvation or
eternal damnation (the Second Death), and ushers in the New Heavens, the New
Earth, and the New Jerusalem.?
People who appeared before the Bema Seat Judgment or who
passed the Sheep and Goats Judgement will not face the Great White Throne
Judgment.? There is no double jeopardy.
Christine, that’s what the New Testament says about
judgments.? This answers your question
but probably doesn’t address what you were after.
The problem is using the term “judgment”
which has the specific meanings noted above.
Your question is really about what happens when a person dies
BEFORE they face judgment.? The
Abraham’s Bosum story that you mention refers to the Old Testament belief that the
disembodied spirits of the departed go to an abode of the unsaved dead while
awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.?
This is called “Hades”.? Their
bodies remain in the grave.
Per Jesus’ description in Luke 16:19-31, the (disembodied
soul of the) wicked rich man wound up in flames in Hades, while the (disembodied
soul of the) beggar named Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom which was right
next door.
So here’s my (non)answer to your underlying question. Which
part of Hades an individual’s disembodied soul ended up in the Old Testament
wasn’t a matter of a “judgment” per se, it just happened righteously and automatically
and was not contested.? It’s like the disembodied
souls there were in something like pre-trial confinement.
To some degree, this is moot for justified believers, because
it seems in the New Testament that Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom when He conquered
death.? The souls of the departed believers
are with Christ.? They will face the Bema
Seat Judgment (whenever it occurs).? The
disembodied souls of everyone else are still where they were before Jesus came,
awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. Blessings,
Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 09:47:09 am AEST, Christine < cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Hi Ray and fellow RO9ers, Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought?
Re the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Drs David Jeremiah and Chuck Missler, amongst others, including our Ray S, suggest that this is no parable, but that it actually happened. If so, it does shed light for me on problematic passages e.g. Christ's words to the thief on the cross. However, a reason given to exclude the story from parable status is that parables don't use given names - hence the poor man is Lazarus. Why, then, is the chief character not also named??
Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgement occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before ourJudge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts.
PS Is the meaning of Lazarus' name significant in the context of the story?
Look forward eagerly to Ruth part 2.
Keep well, everyone, Christine
|
Ray, I totally?agree with you. My point was, if the narrative about the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a parable, but description of a 'reality, then what I wrote in the earlier email is what that narrative would seem to imply, which, in turn, renders the Judgement Thrones a sort of anticlimax. Sorry l didn't express that with greater clarity.?
Oh well, now we look through that dark glass, but then we'll see in truth and thank our God for that
Hi Christine,
We already covered the Bible stuff.? All the rest is just speculation.? Regarding whether or not the disembodied souls are surprised, I would suspect that any sentient soul will be.? We're dealing with really important extremes, after all.??
What I would like to address is your comment, "souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny."? I don't agree.? Of course,? I don't really know, but that would seem to negate the need for the Great White Throne Judgement, and probably the Sheep and Goats Judgement as well.? I see God as compassionate, fair, AND efficient. [My second engineering degree was a B.Sc. in Industrial Engineering, after all.]? I mean why punish a soul for up to 1,000 years or so, only to present before a Judge to hear, "What are you here for? Go back to Hades."? Plus, both the Sheep and Goats Judgement and the Great White Throne Judgement are real judgments, where the verdict could be positive ("Join the sheep") or not ("You goat!").
So, to my simple mind, Christine, I respectfully disagree about eternal destiny and punishment or reward occurring at the moment of death.? I'd rather take the Bible as written.
Blessings,
Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 04:58:51 pm AEST, Christine < cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Thanks, Ray,
You are correct in assuming that my query didn't concern the nature/purpose of the 3 major judgements, but that, at the moment of death and prior to the Throne Judgements, souls immediately find out the direction of their eternal destiny, and either punishment or reward commences then, and there even if the setting is just an anteroom , as it were.
Do you think the outcome is based on individual's life choices and so they are not necessarily surprised about where they find themselves?
Hi Christine, I rushed out my last answer.? Rereading it I realised that my last sentence
should read, “Well, it turns out that we find in Genesis 15:2 that if Abraham
goes childless, he names his chief servant, who we find is named ‘Eliezer/Eleazar,’
as his heir.”
You wrote, “Furthermore, the narrative would
indicate that judgment occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection
and before our Judge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would
appreciate further thoughts.”
The New Testament lists three judgments, the Bema
Seat Judgment (2 Cor 5:10;?1 Cor 3:11–15), the
Sheep and Goats Judgment (Matt 25:31–46), and the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11–15).? None of them occurs at the moment of
death.
Only saved believers appear before the Bema Seat. People
who believe in a Rapture believe that this judgment will occur AFTER the
Rapture occurs.? Salvation isn’t the
issue, because Jesus nailed that on the Cross.?
This is where the foundation that the deceased believers' built-in life
is judged: “gold, silver, precious stones, [or] wood, hay, stubble.”? It’s not the person being judged, that has
already been done and they passed.? It’s
their works (what they did with their justification).
The Sheep and Goat Judgment?occurs on or soon
after the Second Coming (before the Millennium begins). All the nations
(people) shall be gathered before Jesus and he will separate them one from
another on the basis of their works, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the
goats.
The Great White Throne?occurs at the end of the?Millennium.? It judges the unsaved dead for salvation or
eternal damnation (the Second Death), and ushers in the New Heavens, the New
Earth, and the New Jerusalem.?
People who appeared before the Bema Seat Judgment or who
passed the Sheep and Goats Judgement will not face the Great White Throne
Judgment.? There is no double jeopardy.
Christine, that’s what the New Testament says about
judgments.? This answers your question
but probably doesn’t address what you were after.
The problem is using the term “judgment”
which has the specific meanings noted above.
Your question is really about what happens when a person dies
BEFORE they face judgment.? The
Abraham’s Bosum story that you mention refers to the Old Testament belief that the
disembodied spirits of the departed go to an abode of the unsaved dead while
awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.?
This is called “Hades”.? Their
bodies remain in the grave.
Per Jesus’ description in Luke 16:19-31, the (disembodied
soul of the) wicked rich man wound up in flames in Hades, while the (disembodied
soul of the) beggar named Lazarus ended up in Abraham’s bosom which was right
next door.
So here’s my (non)answer to your underlying question. Which
part of Hades an individual’s disembodied soul ended up in the Old Testament
wasn’t a matter of a “judgment” per se, it just happened righteously and automatically
and was not contested.? It’s like the disembodied
souls there were in something like pre-trial confinement.
To some degree, this is moot for justified believers, because
it seems in the New Testament that Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom when He conquered
death.? The souls of the departed believers
are with Christ.? They will face the Bema
Seat Judgment (whenever it occurs).? The
disembodied souls of everyone else are still where they were before Jesus came,
awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment. Blessings,
Ray
On Tuesday, 4 August 2020, 09:47:09 am AEST, Christine < cjmcfadyen46@...> wrote:
Hi Ray and fellow RO9ers, Can anyone provide a short, simple definition of Replacement Theology and problems that may arise if following this school of thought?
Re the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Drs David Jeremiah and Chuck Missler, amongst others, including our Ray S, suggest that this is no parable, but that it actually happened. If so, it does shed light for me on problematic passages e.g. Christ's words to the thief on the cross. However, a reason given to exclude the story from parable status is that parables don't use given names - hence the poor man is Lazarus. Why, then, is the chief character not also named??
Furthermore, the narrative would indicate that judgement occurs at the moment of death, not at the resurrection and before ourJudge's Throne? I have some perhaps ideas on this, but would appreciate further thoughts.
PS Is the meaning of Lazarus' name significant in the context of the story?
Look forward eagerly to Ruth part 2.
Keep well, everyone, Christine
|
Ray