Re: Where's the CPM files
Hi Bill,
Yes it all fits together. There is a problem with the FP on top of the SIO though that I haven't tracked down. The FP works fine but there is a segment 'e' I think it is, that is not lit on all characters. I think its a shorted bit on the SIO board, although they all checked out on with an ohm meter when I was testing before plugging it. The CPU and SIO board work fine, as does the FP even when using the bit banging I/O port on the FP with the CPM.
Paul
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Re: Where's the CPM files
If speed is an issue, there is always this route...?
Peace and blessings,
Scott
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Yes, that is the case.? My Kaypro4/84 has a 1mb ramdisk, very fast.
The compupro also has a 512K ram disk and hard disks with smart
controller, faster even at only 4mhz z80.
AT class machines even with then hard disks that the same bottleneck.
The 8080, well, it was just slow, though it beat the tar out of the 8008
by an easy factor of 10x or more.? Still for the first system I ever?
built it was pretty amazing, then I got to see the 8080 instruction set.
Back then the PDP-8 (e or i) was the benchmark used, later PDP-11.
Generally at each moment I was pushing for best performance or
greatest simplicity.? the Z80 or 8085 generally did that well for
most cases.? For less 8049 or 8051.
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Allison,??
Lee's ALTAID computer uses a 512K RAM chip, 64K for a full memory map and 448K for a single RAM disk. It's fast to access the disk, but the 8080 itself is just chugging along at 2Mhz.
Somethings never change.? I'm guessing in 4 decades from now, it will be the same (if humanity survives). Even back on my XT (or was it on my AT?) I would create RAM Disks and work from them. Today, everyone installs SSD to speed up Windows.
Cheers,
Josh
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020, 10:30:53 a.m. EDT, ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...> wrote:
I've collected and build CP/M systems for decades (over 4)
so I have system that run from sludge slow to current idea of fast.
Z80s at 10mhz, Z180s at 12mhz and A Z280 at 10mhz.
That and no shortage of S100, Multibus, and SBC systems
to run.
Biggest bottleneck is mass storage IO, 5.25 floppy generally
is slow, many hard disks were not fast.? ?Of all CF is usually
fastest (best if 8bit mode) and SD slower as the SD has
more protocol overhead and the serializing if not done in
hardware is slow.? Of course there are implementation
dependencies but the faster?systems usually farm out
the disk/storage IO to a slave cpu in some form.??
Speed is good if it can be had simply.? A Z80 running at? 6, 8
or 10mhz can be simple.?
All that said why speed is nice to have, I use multiplan, Dbase,
smallC, BDS-C, Pascal and a lot of other software like Vedit
and speed helps.
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
I've collected and build CP/M systems for decades (over 4)
so I have system that run from sludge slow to current idea of fast.
Z80s at 10mhz, Z180s at 12mhz and A Z280 at 10mhz.
That and no shortage of S100, Multibus, and SBC systems
to run.
Biggest bottleneck is mass storage IO, 5.25 floppy generally
is slow, many hard disks were not fast.? ?Of all CF is usually
fastest (best if 8bit mode) and SD slower as the SD has
more protocol overhead and the serializing if not done in
hardware is slow.? Of course there are implementation
dependencies but the faster?systems usually farm out
the disk/storage IO to a slave cpu in some form.??
Speed is good if it can be had simply.? A Z80 running at? 6, 8
or 10mhz can be simple.?
All that said why speed is nice to have, I use multiplan, Dbase,
smallC, BDS-C, Pascal and a lot of other software like Vedit
and speed helps.
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
and 4mhz should be enough for anyone ?
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Show quoted text
Considering the DEC Robin ( I have two) is a 4mhz Z80 with 64K of ram?
with banked boot/terminal roms and slow floppies (TM100s) is the
comparison?that's terrible.
A long time back I got a dozen of the Z80 board used to make up
the Robin, They are 4mhz Z80, 64k of Dram, two 24 pin eprom
sockets (2732), FDC and 4 serial ports, basis for a good system.
So I took one and put on revised roms and it uses a CF
interfaced to the old FDC? socket (no floppies) and its
fast ss any 4mhz Z80.??
Having multiple real systems to compare at 4mhz is nice:
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Considering the DEC Robin ( I have two) is a 4mhz Z80 with 64K of ram?
with banked boot/terminal roms and slow floppies (TM100s) is the
comparison?that's terrible.
A long time back I got a dozen of the Z80 board used to make up
the Robin, They are 4mhz Z80, 64k of Dram, two 24 pin eprom
sockets (2732), FDC and 4 serial ports, basis for a good system.
So I took one and put on revised roms and it uses a CF
interfaced to the old FDC? socket (no floppies) and its
fast ss any 4mhz Z80.??
Having multiple real systems to compare at 4mhz is nice:
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
I used reverse connectors as well for the olduino/z.? Are you able to put the front panel on top of the SIO?
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The Olduino is a retro-Arduino. This one uses a Zilog Z80 processor from the 1970s but adds hardware and software so it can function like an arduino and use some arduino add-on shields. The Olduino/Z is more limited than an Arduino but that is part of the fun.
The Olduino/Z has 8 dedicated output pins and 7 inputs…
olduino.wordpress.com
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Show quoted text
Thanks all,
Working fine now. I downloaded the CPM files from the website and simply copied the contents of the ZIP to the SDcard and then booted the Z80MC with the SIO board but not the FP. Some activity and? then hey presto CPM prompt.?
Works fine. Bit slower than I recall my old DEC Robin, but fine. Will have some fun putting Small C and Pascal on to the card.?
I've got plans for a Z80 PIO and CTC on my expansion board.
Meant to mention that I reversed the pins and sockets on the boards, so that I could plug directly into the CPU board with single core bare wires or male pin back to back breadboard wires, rather than having to use DIP sockets. I also found some 20 way versions
of the white connectors from EBay and used those with one 10 way supplied to make the inter board connectors.?
Here's a photo of the completed boards.
Best Regards
Pau l
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Thanks all,
Working fine now. I downloaded the CPM files from the website and simply copied the contents of the ZIP to the SDcard and then booted the Z80MC with the SIO board but not the FP. Some activity and? then hey presto CPM prompt.?
Works fine. Bit slower than I recall my old DEC Robin, but fine. Will have some fun putting Small C and Pascal on to the card.?
I've got plans for a Z80 PIO and CTC on my expansion board.
Meant to mention that I reversed the pins and sockets on the boards, so that I could plug directly into the CPU board with single core bare wires or male pin back to back breadboard wires, rather than having to use DIP sockets. I also found some 20 way versions of the white connectors from EBay and used those with one 10 way supplied to make the inter board connectors.?
Here's a photo of the completed boards.
Best Regards
Pau l
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Re: Where's the CPM files
>>So, there is a chance that writes don't make it to disk, but since most
normal programs in CP/M return to CP/M, the reading of the system
sectors should satisfy clearing out the cache.<<
CP/M bios get signals from the BDOS to determine that for deblocking.
The BIOS then only needs to do a "updated" read and the SD will write
its cache and get the requested block.
Warm-boot should do that as well and Cold-boot should as well as the
first thing is a read to login the current directory (usually A:).
That should apply both for CP/M deblocking and triggering a dirty
cache in the SD (its internal caching).
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Hi Alison,
The way I wrote CP/M BIOS on the Z80MC is to open a FAT16 File and use it like a drive. I wanted to use the SD card in a manner that would still let the user read/write files through existing Windows file explorer. I thought about just mapping sectors directly to CP/M but that's far too easy, wasteful and not my style. In CP/M, access to a block is translated to 128 byte disk sectors. The BIOS converts this to a 512 byte sector, and the cluster required, then goes FAT hopping. The 512 byte sector is read into RAM and a pointer to the correct 128 bytes is returned.
Of course, I consider the 4 (128 sectors) as cached and new SD card reads are not required. Writing updates the cache and simply flags a "dirty data" condition.? The next read that changes the 512 byte cache will trigger the write back to disk. So, there is a chance that writes don't make it to disk, but since most normal programs in CP/M return to CP/M, the reading of the system sectors should satisfy clearing out the cache.
Cheers,
Josh
On Saturday, September 26, 2020, 01:57:34 p.m. EDT, ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...> wrote:
With care cpm explorer runs in wine.
Either case CP/M knows nothing of fat so what many do is create a
contiguous 8mb file as a container file and then find out what block
address it starts at.? Then CP/M addresses the block directly
without fat.
So CP/M will not read fat files, the file structure is very incompatible.
Its possible to run a utility that does BIOS direct DISK IO and read
FAT using a program that knows fat structure but that's only useful
to get from CP/M to FAT or FAT to CP/M.? I have that for AmproLB+
and Kaypro4/84 its called DOS.? Obvious the media must be compatible
(720K 3.5" floppy was the standard here for that) as back then SD and CF
were far in the future.? The program called DOS is on the SC CD but it
would need a great amount of work for FAT devices larger than 500mb.
SD cards do not care what file format you use.? ?If you partition it you
can have multiple CP/M partitions.? Oh CP/M does not use partition
table on that media either.? ? Use a freshly formated or new SD
(1gb is plenty large) and write a bunch of FAT files of 8MB each then use?
a program to get the starting bock address of each.? The CP/M BIOS
needs to know [when you code it, or as a default that can be changed
for B:/C:/D:... drives] what the block starting address is for a given Logical Drive.
Using linux DD is both your friend and feind.? It can write blocks to specified
addresses easily but only using great care as it can write blocks to specified?
addresses easily (oops wrong blocks or device).
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
With care cpm explorer runs in wine.
Either case CP/M knows nothing of fat so what many do is create a
contiguous 8mb file as a container file and then find out what block
address it starts at.? Then CP/M addresses the block directly
without fat.
So CP/M will not read fat files, the file structure is very incompatible.
Its possible to run a utility that does BIOS direct DISK IO and read
FAT using a program that knows fat structure but that's only useful
to get from CP/M to FAT or FAT to CP/M.? I have that for AmproLB+
and Kaypro4/84 its called DOS.? Obvious the media must be compatible
(720K 3.5" floppy was the standard here for that) as back then SD and CF
were far in the future.? The program called DOS is on the SC CD but it
would need a great amount of work for FAT devices larger than 500mb.
SD cards do not care what file format you use.? ?If you partition it you
can have multiple CP/M partitions.? Oh CP/M does not use partition
table on that media either.? ? Use a freshly formated or new SD
(1gb is plenty large) and write a bunch of FAT files of 8MB each then use?
a program to get the starting bock address of each.? The CP/M BIOS
needs to know [when you code it, or as a default that can be changed
for B:/C:/D:... drives] what the block starting address is for a given Logical Drive.
Using linux DD is both your friend and feind.? It can write blocks to specified
addresses easily but only using great care as it can write blocks to specified?
addresses easily (oops wrong blocks or device).
Allison
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Re: Where's the CPM files
Paul Bigwood wrote: I've finally finished my SIO Card - long story!, and it seems to be
working fine, but I can't boot CPM.
I'm pretty sure the SD Card I have used (SanDisk 2GB Black) is the one
supplied with the kit.
Checking it on my W10 PC shows no files but around 100K of data used?
Booting the Z80MC and typing S shows a sub menu L and W. L prompts the
same sub menu and W and prompts to enter a file name? Entering a file
name like TEST.TXT just comes back with a ?. Have I overwritten the
system somehow?
I haven't been able to find any instructions on line. Is there a FAQ I
should be looking at? Can I download the files from somewhere? Hi Paul, I format the SD-card in FAT16; but do not pre-load the CP/M files onto it. The computer I'm using is running linux, and it's problematic to load the CP/M files on it because Josh's CP/M explorer is Windows. (I have to get another computer with a working Windows setup to do it). If you look on my website, you'll find the files to load, and the CP/M explorer program to do it. Once you get them loaded, you should be all set! Once CP/M is on the Z80MC, then it has the XMODEM program and can transfer any files or disk images with any PC "terminal" program that supports XMODEM. Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Morgan,? Thank you for the great news.? Hope you get CP/M running too.? That's the part that amazes me, CP/M in the palm of your hand.
On Friday, September 25, 2020, 07:42:00 p.m. EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:
Hello Josh,
I've got some excellent news! I figured out what the problem was, turns out the UART chip was the issue. I ordered a replacement because I wanted to test the socketed stuff before I started desoldering, and when I replaced it the board started right up! So your initial suspect was the culprit. Thanks a ton for the help, this has been an absolute blast (not a joke, I have been really enjoying working on this).
Thanks for your help,
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Hello Josh,
I've got some excellent news! I figured out what the problem was, turns out the UART chip was the issue. I ordered a replacement because I wanted to test the socketed stuff before I started desoldering, and when I replaced it the board started right up! So your initial suspect was the culprit. Thanks a ton for the help, this has been an absolute blast (not a joke, I have been really enjoying working on this).
Thanks for your help,
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Hi Morgan,
Sorry, I missed this email post.? Ok, so where are you at now?? If you boil it down, the circuit either fails because of a bad component or bad circuitry.
It's a slow process, but perhaps you can remove most chips and start ohming every trace?? Ohm it along the way from point a to b for shorts with adjacent traces.
Cheers,
Josh
On Saturday, September 19, 2020, 09:05:10 p.m. EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:
Hello Josh,
Unfortunately I don't have one of those to test with. I'm mostly limited to just a multimeter at the moment.
Thanks,?
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Hello Josh,
Unfortunately I don't have one of those to test with. I'm mostly limited to just a multimeter at the moment.
Thanks,?
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Hi Morgan,? I haven't actually measured the current draw on my boards, but 200mA was a guess at the most it should use.? I think 70mA is good enough. If you put a scope on the UART output and power CPU + SIO board, do you get any output? Scope the UART CS, is it getting addressed?
On Friday, September 18, 2020, 5:20:27 PM EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:
Hello Josh, I think I connected my multimeter correctly, I put it between the FTDI cable and the terminal on the side, and I ended up measuring ~70mA with the SIO and CPU cards. I tried out the other combinations and got 80mA with the Front Panel connected and 56mA with all cards connected. Unless I made a mistake connecting it looks like its low instead of high. I did find out however that if I have the Front Panel connected and I hit the reset buttons (F and 0) on there the SD card LEDs will flash. So that's something at least.
Thanks,
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
Hello Richard,
The connectors seem to be fine, I've got continuity from the bottom board to the top and none of them are shorted to each other. Unless there's something I'm missing I'm thinking they should be good.
Thanks,
Morgan
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Re: Unable to get SIO card working
I have found on my setup that the stacking connectors are particularly sensitive. Sometimes I need to play with the stack to get it working properly.
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
Long Island S100 User’s Group
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Hello Josh,
I think I connected my multimeter correctly, I put it between the FTDI cable and the terminal on the side, and I ended up measuring ~70mA with the SIO and CPU cards. I tried out the other combinations and got 80mA with the Front Panel connected and 56mA with
all cards connected.
Unless I made a mistake connecting it looks like its low instead of high. I did find out however that if I have the Front Panel connected and I hit the reset buttons (F and 0) on there the SD card LEDs will flash. So that's something at least.
Thanks,
Morgan
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Paul Bigwood
Lee Hart