Re: Where's the CPM files

#182

I've collected and build CP/M systems for decades (over 4)
so I have system that run from sludge slow to current idea of fast.
Z80s at 10mhz, Z180s at 12mhz and A Z280 at 10mhz.
That and no shortage of S100, Multibus, and SBC systems
to run.

Biggest bottleneck is mass storage IO, 5.25 floppy generally
is slow, many hard disks were not fast.? ?Of all CF is usually
fastest (best if 8bit mode) and SD slower as the SD has
more protocol overhead and the serializing if not done in
hardware is slow.? Of course there are implementation
dependencies but the faster?systems usually farm out
the disk/storage IO to a slave cpu in some form.??

Speed is good if it can be had simply.? A Z80 running at? 6, 8
or 10mhz can be simple.?

All that said why speed is nice to have, I use multiplan, Dbase,
smallC, BDS-C, Pascal and a lot of other software like Vedit
and speed helps.

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#181

开云体育

and 4mhz should be enough for anyone ?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...>
Sent: September 29, 2020 12:35 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Where's the CPM files

?

Considering the DEC Robin ( I have two) is a 4mhz Z80 with 64K of ram?
with banked boot/terminal roms and slow floppies (TM100s) is the
comparison?that's terrible.

A long time back I got a dozen of the Z80 board used to make up
the Robin, They are 4mhz Z80, 64k of Dram, two 24 pin eprom
sockets (2732), FDC and 4 serial ports, basis for a good system.

So I took one and put on revised roms and it uses a CF
interfaced to the old FDC? socket (no floppies) and its
fast ss any 4mhz Z80.??

Having multiple real systems to compare at 4mhz is nice:

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#180

Considering the DEC Robin ( I have two) is a 4mhz Z80 with 64K of ram?
with banked boot/terminal roms and slow floppies (TM100s) is the
comparison?that's terrible.

A long time back I got a dozen of the Z80 board used to make up
the Robin, They are 4mhz Z80, 64k of Dram, two 24 pin eprom
sockets (2732), FDC and 4 serial ports, basis for a good system.

So I took one and put on revised roms and it uses a CF
interfaced to the old FDC? socket (no floppies) and its
fast ss any 4mhz Z80.??

Having multiple real systems to compare at 4mhz is nice:

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#179

开云体育

I used reverse connectors as well for the olduino/z.? Are you able to put the front panel on top of the SIO?

The Olduino is a retro-Arduino. This one uses a Zilog Z80 processor from the 1970s but adds hardware and software so it can function like an arduino and use some arduino add-on shields. The Olduino/Z is more limited than an Arduino but that is part of the fun. The Olduino/Z has 8 dedicated output pins and 7 inputs…

olduino.wordpress.com

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Paul Bigwood <paul@...>
Sent: September 28, 2020 11:05 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Where's the CPM files

?

Thanks all,

Working fine now. I downloaded the CPM files from the website and simply copied the contents of the ZIP to the SDcard and then booted the Z80MC with the SIO board but not the FP. Some activity and? then hey presto CPM prompt.?

Works fine. Bit slower than I recall my old DEC Robin, but fine. Will have some fun putting Small C and Pascal on to the card.?

I've got plans for a Z80 PIO and CTC on my expansion board.

Meant to mention that I reversed the pins and sockets on the boards, so that I could plug directly into the CPU board with single core bare wires or male pin back to back breadboard wires, rather than having to use DIP sockets. I also found some 20 way versions of the white connectors from EBay and used those with one 10 way supplied to make the inter board connectors.?

Here's a photo of the completed boards.

Best Regards

Pau l

Re: Where's the CPM files

#178

Thanks all,

Working fine now. I downloaded the CPM files from the website and simply copied the contents of the ZIP to the SDcard and then booted the Z80MC with the SIO board but not the FP. Some activity and? then hey presto CPM prompt.?

Works fine. Bit slower than I recall my old DEC Robin, but fine. Will have some fun putting Small C and Pascal on to the card.?

I've got plans for a Z80 PIO and CTC on my expansion board.

Meant to mention that I reversed the pins and sockets on the boards, so that I could plug directly into the CPU board with single core bare wires or male pin back to back breadboard wires, rather than having to use DIP sockets. I also found some 20 way versions of the white connectors from EBay and used those with one 10 way supplied to make the inter board connectors.?

Here's a photo of the completed boards.

Best Regards

Pau l

Z80MC_SIO_CPU_FPB-small.jpg

Re: Where's the CPM files

#177

>>So, there is a chance that writes don't make it to disk, but since most
normal programs in CP/M return to CP/M, the reading of the system
sectors should satisfy clearing out the cache.<<

CP/M bios get signals from the BDOS to determine that for deblocking.
The BIOS then only needs to do a "updated" read and the SD will write
its cache and get the requested block.

Warm-boot should do that as well and Cold-boot should as well as the
first thing is a read to login the current directory (usually A:).

That should apply both for CP/M deblocking and triggering a dirty
cache in the SD (its internal caching).

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#176

Hi Alison,

The way I wrote CP/M BIOS on the Z80MC is to open a FAT16 File and use it like a drive.

I wanted to use the SD card in a manner that would still let the user read/write files through existing Windows file explorer.

I thought about just mapping sectors directly to CP/M but that's far too easy, wasteful and not my style.

In CP/M, access to a block is translated to 128 byte disk sectors.

The BIOS converts this to a 512 byte sector, and the cluster required, then goes FAT hopping.

The 512 byte sector is read into RAM and a pointer to the correct 128 bytes is returned.

Of course, I consider the 4 (128 sectors) as cached and new SD card reads are not required.

Writing updates the cache and simply flags a "dirty data" condition.? The next read that changes the 512 byte cache will trigger the write back to disk.

So, there is a chance that writes don't make it to disk, but since most normal programs in CP/M return to CP/M, the reading of the system sectors should satisfy clearing out the cache.

Cheers,
Josh

On Saturday, September 26, 2020, 01:57:34 p.m. EDT, ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...> wrote:

With care cpm explorer runs in wine.

Either case CP/M knows nothing of fat so what many do is create a
contiguous 8mb file as a container file and then find out what block
address it starts at.? Then CP/M addresses the block directly
without fat.

So CP/M will not read fat files, the file structure is very incompatible.
Its possible to run a utility that does BIOS direct DISK IO and read
FAT using a program that knows fat structure but that's only useful
to get from CP/M to FAT or FAT to CP/M.? I have that for AmproLB+
and Kaypro4/84 its called DOS.? Obvious the media must be compatible
(720K 3.5" floppy was the standard here for that) as back then SD and CF
were far in the future.? The program called DOS is on the SC CD but it
would need a great amount of work for FAT devices larger than 500mb.

SD cards do not care what file format you use.? ?If you partition it you
can have multiple CP/M partitions.? Oh CP/M does not use partition
table on that media either.? ? Use a freshly formated or new SD
(1gb is plenty large) and write a bunch of FAT files of 8MB each then use?
a program to get the starting bock address of each.? The CP/M BIOS
needs to know [when you code it, or as a default that can be changed
for B:/C:/D:... drives] what the block starting address is for a given Logical Drive.

Using linux DD is both your friend and feind.? It can write blocks to specified
addresses easily but only using great care as it can write blocks to specified?
addresses easily (oops wrong blocks or device).

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#175

With care cpm explorer runs in wine.

Either case CP/M knows nothing of fat so what many do is create a
contiguous 8mb file as a container file and then find out what block
address it starts at.? Then CP/M addresses the block directly
without fat.

So CP/M will not read fat files, the file structure is very incompatible.
Its possible to run a utility that does BIOS direct DISK IO and read
FAT using a program that knows fat structure but that's only useful
to get from CP/M to FAT or FAT to CP/M.? I have that for AmproLB+
and Kaypro4/84 its called DOS.? Obvious the media must be compatible
(720K 3.5" floppy was the standard here for that) as back then SD and CF
were far in the future.? The program called DOS is on the SC CD but it
would need a great amount of work for FAT devices larger than 500mb.

SD cards do not care what file format you use.? ?If you partition it you
can have multiple CP/M partitions.? Oh CP/M does not use partition
table on that media either.? ? Use a freshly formated or new SD
(1gb is plenty large) and write a bunch of FAT files of 8MB each then use?
a program to get the starting bock address of each.? The CP/M BIOS
needs to know [when you code it, or as a default that can be changed
for B:/C:/D:... drives] what the block starting address is for a given Logical Drive.

Using linux DD is both your friend and feind.? It can write blocks to specified
addresses easily but only using great care as it can write blocks to specified?
addresses easily (oops wrong blocks or device).

Allison

Re: Where's the CPM files

#174

Paul Bigwood wrote:
I've finally finished my SIO Card - long story!, and it seems to be
working fine, but I can't boot CPM.
I'm pretty sure the SD Card I have used (SanDisk 2GB Black) is the one
supplied with the kit.
Checking it on my W10 PC shows no files but around 100K of data used?
Booting the Z80MC and typing S shows a sub menu L and W. L prompts the
same sub menu and W and prompts to enter a file name? Entering a file
name like TEST.TXT just comes back with a ?. Have I overwritten the
system somehow?

I haven't been able to find any instructions on line. Is there a FAQ I
should be looking at? Can I download the files from somewhere?Hi Paul,

I format the SD-card in FAT16; but do not pre-load the CP/M files onto it. The computer I'm using is running linux, and it's problematic to load the CP/M files on it because Josh's CP/M explorer is Windows. (I have to get another computer with a working Windows setup to do it).

If you look on my website, you'll find the files to load, and the CP/M explorer program to do it. Once you get them loaded, you should be all set!

Once CP/M is on the Z80MC, then it has the XMODEM program and can transfer any files or disk images with any PC "terminal" program that supports XMODEM.

Lee

-- 
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
        -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#170

Morgan,? Thank you for the great news.? Hope you get CP/M running too.? That's the part that amazes me, CP/M in the palm of your hand.

On Friday, September 25, 2020, 07:42:00 p.m. EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:

Hello Josh,

I've got some excellent news! I figured out what the problem was, turns out the UART chip was the issue. I ordered a replacement because I wanted to test the socketed stuff before I started desoldering, and when I replaced it the board started right up! So your initial suspect was the culprit. Thanks a ton for the help, this has been an absolute blast (not a joke, I have been really enjoying working on this).

Thanks for your help,
Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#169

Hello Josh,

I've got some excellent news! I figured out what the problem was, turns out the UART chip was the issue. I ordered a replacement because I wanted to test the socketed stuff before I started desoldering, and when I replaced it the board started right up! So your initial suspect was the culprit. Thanks a ton for the help, this has been an absolute blast (not a joke, I have been really enjoying working on this).

Thanks for your help,
Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#168

Hi Morgan,

Sorry, I missed this email post.? Ok, so where are you at now?? If you boil it down, the circuit either fails because of a bad component or bad circuitry.

It's a slow process, but perhaps you can remove most chips and start ohming every trace?? Ohm it along the way from point a to b for shorts with adjacent traces.

Cheers,
Josh

On Saturday, September 19, 2020, 09:05:10 p.m. EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:

Hello Josh,

Unfortunately I don't have one of those to test with. I'm mostly limited to just a multimeter at the moment.

Thanks,?
Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#167

Hello Josh,

Unfortunately I don't have one of those to test with. I'm mostly limited to just a multimeter at the moment.

Thanks,?
Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#166

Hi Morgan,?

I haven't actually measured the current draw on my boards, but 200mA was a guess at the most it should use.? I think 70mA is good enough.

If you put a scope on the UART output and power CPU + SIO board, do you get any output?

Scope the UART CS, is it getting addressed?

Josh

On Friday, September 18, 2020, 5:20:27 PM EDT, Morgan <mhtbx118@...> wrote:

Hello Josh,

I think I connected my multimeter correctly, I put it between the FTDI cable and the terminal on the side, and I ended up measuring ~70mA with the SIO and CPU cards. I tried out the other combinations and got 80mA with the Front Panel connected and 56mA with all cards connected.

Unless I made a mistake connecting it looks like its low instead of high. I did find out however that if I have the Front Panel connected and I hit the reset buttons (F and 0) on there the SD card LEDs will flash. So that's something at least.

Thanks,

Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#165

Hello Richard,

The connectors seem to be fine, I've got continuity from the bottom board to the top and none of them are shorted to each other. Unless there's something I'm missing I'm thinking they should be good.

Thanks,
Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#164

开云体育

I have found on my setup that the stacking connectors are particularly sensitive. Sometimes I need to play with the stack to get it working properly.

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini

Long Island S100 User’s Group

Get for iOS

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Morgan <mhtbx118@...>
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2020 5:20:26 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Unable to get SIO card working

?

Hello Josh,

I think I connected my multimeter correctly, I put it between the FTDI cable and the terminal on the side, and I ended up measuring ~70mA with the SIO and CPU cards. I tried out the other combinations and got 80mA with the Front Panel connected and 56mA with all cards connected.

Unless I made a mistake connecting it looks like its low instead of high. I did find out however that if I have the Front Panel connected and I hit the reset buttons (F and 0) on there the SD card LEDs will flash. So that's something at least.

Thanks,

Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#163

Hello Josh,

I think I connected my multimeter correctly, I put it between the FTDI cable and the terminal on the side, and I ended up measuring ~70mA with the SIO and CPU cards. I tried out the other combinations and got 80mA with the Front Panel connected and 56mA with all cards connected.

Unless I made a mistake connecting it looks like its low instead of high. I did find out however that if I have the Front Panel connected and I hit the reset buttons (F and 0) on there the SD card LEDs will flash. So that's something at least.

Thanks,

Morgan

Re: Unable to get SIO card working

#162

Hi Morgan,

Can you measure the current draw?? Should be about 200mA I think?? If it's too high, try removing the UART chip, it may be faulty? Try other chips, remove one at a time.

If you are in Canada you are welcome to mail me the board if we get stuck.? Or even come visit me if you're near Toronto.

Cheers,
Josh

On Friday, September 18, 2020, 06:59:04 a.m. EDT, mhtbx118@... <mhtbx118@...> wrote:

Hello everyone, hope you're having a fine day!

?

I just picked up this kit a few weeks ago and I haven't been able to get the SIO card working. The front panel and CPU card work fine together but if I have the SIO card installed nothing seems to work. I have tried it with and without the front panel card.

?

When I plug the SIO card in the only thing that happens is the LEDs flash a few times then stay on or turn off. Nothing comes out over the terminal connection (assuming the setting are the same as the front panel settings, which work fine). As for troubleshooting, I have checked to make sure there is no solder bridges that are obvious, and I tried to reflow the joints to be sure I didn't mess any up. I reseated the socketed chips and made sure that there was continuity between the pins and the solder joints on the underside of the board. I did replace R6 in a really stupid way because I somehow missed that it was supposed to look like it did. I honestly don't know how I missed that considering all the times I read through trying to figure out where I went wrong. Hopefully I didn't screw it up worse with that.

?

I've swapped the files on the SD card multiple times to make sure I didn't mess that up but I've had no luck with that.

?

And at this point I have exhausted my ability to troubleshoot and I'm hoping someone here can give me a hand in getting this running. I'm sure its going to be something stupidly simple because I always miss the easy stuff.

?

I have some closeups of my boards if anyone wants to see them to make sure its not a stupid mistake:?

?

Thanks for any help you can give!

Morgan

Unable to get SIO card working

#161

Hello everyone, hope you're having a fine day!

?

I just picked up this kit a few weeks ago and I haven't been able to get the SIO card working. The front panel and CPU card work fine together but if I have the SIO card installed nothing seems to work. I have tried it with and without the front panel card.

?

When I plug the SIO card in the only thing that happens is the LEDs flash a few times then stay on or turn off. Nothing comes out over the terminal connection (assuming the setting are the same as the front panel settings, which work fine). As for troubleshooting, I have checked to make sure there is no solder bridges that are obvious, and I tried to reflow the joints to be sure I didn't mess any up. I reseated the socketed chips and made sure that there was continuity between the pins and the solder joints on the underside of the board. I did replace R6 in a really stupid way because I somehow missed that it was supposed to look like it did. I honestly don't know how I missed that considering all the times I read through trying to figure out where I went wrong. Hopefully I didn't screw it up worse with that.

?

I've swapped the files on the SD card multiple times to make sure I didn't mess that up but I've had no luck with that.

?

And at this point I have exhausted my ability to troubleshoot and I'm hoping someone here can give me a hand in getting this running. I'm sure its going to be something stupidly simple because I always miss the easy stuff.

?

I have some closeups of my boards if anyone wants to see them to make sure its not a stupid mistake:?

?

Thanks for any help you can give!

Morgan

Re: SIO and Hayesmodem

#160

开云体育

Thanks Josh. Modem works fine with a PC dialing into the BBS so it’s not that. I found another CP/M modem program to try. I also got the 32k RAM today so I might swap that out as well and re-enable RTS. I also probably need to spend some time slogging through the code — I bet it’s getting hung up waiting for the handshake and not getting it because I disabled it in the port initialization.?

The Digi Board works great. You need to run Searchlight in Windows and run one instance of it per port but pointing each to the same database.?

I do want to setup the Walnut Creek CDROM as the “file archive” just so there’s something to do. Need to figure out how to import it.?

Rich

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini

Long Island S100 User’s Group

Get for iOS

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 10:09 PM
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] SIO and Hayesmodem

?

Rich, I guess next step is try the modem on your PC terminal.??

Searchlight BBS? Cool, I used to run a BBS in the late 80's on Searchlight.? Frank LaRosa was the guy that made Searchlight.? Why can I remember his name from 30 years ago but I can't remember what I had for breakfast?? Anyway, that software was simple enough to setup... but the digi board will definitely add some complexity.

Cheers,
Josh

On Monday, August 31, 2020, 07:13:55 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:

I had time today to try the handshaking loopback on the modem side and there was no change in the outcome. It will connect but do nothing. Hitting a key causes a disconnect.

I rebuilt the BBS server using Windows 98SE and Searchlight 5.1. I have multinode capability now which is cool. No files yet and no users but it’s a start.

I probably need to look at the settings and see if there’s a way to force it to ASCII-only. Searchlight is supposed to auto-identify the calling terminal but maybe that’s messing it up. I also need to walk the MODEM221 code a bit and see what’s going on.

I never setup a BBS before. It’s reasonably easy to do but tricky when trying to use a Digi multi-port serial board. Need to figure out the file areas part now.

Rich

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini

Long Island S100 User’s Group

Get for iOS

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard Cini via groups.io <rich.cini@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 7:53:52 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] SIO and Hayesmodem

?

Good point as always. Need to dig out my break-out box for that.

Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2020 9:42:21 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] SIO and Hayesmodem

?

Might want to try looping back the RTS/CTS and the DTR/DSR pairs on the modem.? That might fool it to work with 3-wire RX/TX/Gnd RS-232

On Monday, August 24, 2020, 7:57:45 PM EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:

Just a quick update on this. I have a BBS (Synchronet) running enough that I can dial-in from another PC and connect properly. I started with the Hayesmodem 300, which was painful, and then changed to the Hayes Optima 144 which was respectable for dial-up.

?

Using the Z80MC, I can get the modem to go off-hook, dial, and connect but it’s not sending/receiving. I use this same modem with HyperTerm to dial the BBS, so it’s not the modem or cable. I’m thinking it’s related to handshaking so I need to look at the init string.?I might also try the following: switch to 32K SRAM and lift the RTS/CTS pins on the 8250 and bring them out to the level shifter DE9 that I have and see if that makes a difference – it would provide full handshaking.

?

Even with that, overall, good progress in getting it going. More to come once I get the 32K SRAM next week.

?

Rich

?

--

Rich Cini

?

On 8/18/20, 10:10 AM, "Richard Cini" <rich.cini@...> wrote:

?

Good point. I think I have a 512K one because that’s what I had handy – they’re used in many of the Retrobrew ECB and John Monahan’s S100 various boards. I don’t think I have any 62256 chips around, but so long as I keep handshaking disabled, we should be good.

?

I will give a revised ROM a try. It’s just an extra set of steps to use, but might be a fair compromise given the very narrow use for this.

?

I requested a full data sheet on the modem from the manufacturer. It uses the AT command set which is good, but it has a reset pin, so I’m looking for the required pulse width for it. RESET isn’t exposed on the Z80MC when it’s in a case – P1 on the SIO has a missing “key” pin with no hole. So, I plan on a simple RC circuit local to the modem (if needed).

?

I found a text-based browser called “Links” which is like Lynx but it seems to be pure text with no DOS-graphic characters. It’s written in C, so maybe there’s a way to pare it down to a bare minimum just to parse basic HTML. Need to look at that.

?

More to come!

?

Rich

?

--

Rich Cini

?