Z-Bend-Track@groups.io

Re: deck material for modules

Pierre Vautravers

Hello,

My name is Pierre and I am new to building modules. I have been
collecting for a few years and I am a member of the TriState Z Scalers.

I will build a module for NTS 2006 in Philadelphia and I have
appreciated all the recent postings about how to build a module. But I
have a question.

How do you fasten legs to a module that only has a wooden frame and no
wooden support for the foam deck? Do you use a lag bolt though the 1x4
frame? Is there some kind of fitting that I do not know about? Are the
legs round or square?

Thanks for sharing all your knowledge. All Z best, Pierre

Re: deck material for modules

#694

Hello Kestutis Sonta,

I have built 2  2' X 4' modules that weigh less than 10 pounds each. I
have also built 2  2' X 2' modules using this method that weigh less
than 10 pounds each fully scenicked. I start by building and finishing
the frame. I used stain and polyurethane to finish them.
I top the frame with 2" thick pink (or blue) foam insulating board. I
don't use any plywood at all. Instead I cut a 1" X 1" edge off of each
side of the foam so that it nests inside the frame. I glue the foam to
the frame using a thick bead of construction-type adhesive suitable for
foam. That allows for contours above and below frame level anywhere on
the module. I've stood in the middle of my larger modules to test their
strength, and the foam didn't bend or break. I weigh 150 pounds.

If you'd like to see pics of the modules under construction, you can
view them on my web site here:
<>  If you choose to use
this type of construction, I would suggest a supporting piece of 1" X
4" in the middle of the 60" length. Feel free to look at the other
pages of my web site to see the finished product.

In any case, have fun building you modules.

Thom Welsch
MidweZt HaulerZ

Re: deck material for modules

Jeff Merrill

#693

I've used 1/4 5 layer Exterior ply (water resistant) and also basic 1/4 3 layer ply painted.  I also made one module with only 3/4 pink foam, a mistake, as one pushed me towards ultra light modules.  The reason is 1) the foam is not flat, 2) the foam is not as structurally strong as a ply base, 3) you can't attach ANYTHING to the underside without gluing a bond pad down !!! If you use 1/8 Luan door skins, they too won't be structurally strong enough so you'll have to put 1x2 cross braces (assuming that you don't already have some with the wonderfully huge module :)  1/4 ply can span the 24" much stronger without the 1x2 so weigh the difference (no pun intended).
   
  For flat concept with built up terrain, the ply is fine.  You can still cut holes in it were needed with a Roto-Zip tool.  Place a layer or two of foam underneath and gouge away.  You could also put the 3/4 or 1" foam on top of the ply to do the same but then the edges get bashed up unless you put an extended siding to cover it.
   
  BTW:  I built the first modules using quality kiln dried 1x4, much lighter and straight than the big-box stores for a small percentage more cost.  They also offer 1/2x4 which is amazingly strong and obviuosly results in a much lighter module.  Maybe a bit less durable though.
   
  Just paint or shellac the module to seal them.
   
  Jeff Merrill
  SF Bay Area Z
  "The BAZ BoyZ"
  
cgwcnw <ksonta@...> wrote:
  With the plunge into Z, I have built 4 frames, two 60" X24" and two 30"X24" end modules.   
Framed several leg sets and the set up is very sturdy but a tad heavy.  Will post pictures and 
drawings when I get a chance.    The next step is to put down some deck on the frame.  My 
initial thoughts are to use 1/4" birch plywood with 1" foam on top to keep the mass down.  
This would allow for sub roadbed detailing, gullies, streams etc.    Read several magazine 
articles and noticed several alternatives  

1/2" plywood
1" or 2" foam board 
homosote
etc

For you folks that have modules what did you use?  Any pro's and cons from you experiences.

Thanks
kestutis sonta

  SPONSORED LINKS 
        G scale train   Ho scale model train   Model train n scale     G scale model train   Ho scale trains   N scale trains 
    
---------------------------------
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

    Visit your group "Z-Bend_Track" on the web.
    
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 Z-Bend_Track-unsubscribe@...
    
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

---------------------------------

Re: deck material for modules

Loren Snyder

#692

Just out of curiosity, whose "fault" would it be if new fault lines appeared on your modules?.....wink!

Seriously, Randy is 100% right on.  Gone are the days when you had to have 2x4 pillars for support and heavy bench work.  I think it would almost be safe to say that "If you can't carry it easily......you have over built it"
Of course that wouldn't apply to Rob Albrighton's wonderful Gothard modules we saw at NTS 2005.  Those required a whole batallion of marines to move, but oh what a sight when set up and running!!

Randy, I went a little differnent route on my latest module.  I incorporated a bit of Bragdon's technique along with pink foam to create my mountains.  I can send you pics of the construction if you wish to see the technique.  I like to have completely "hollow" mountains with access from beneath for even a lighter weight module and accesss to hidden track.  It does present a little challenge to some extent, but I hate the idea of having to camouflage seam lines.

Jeffrey MacHan is a master at hiding seems as evidenced on his 4th suitcase module.  He has a mountain that requires removal for transportation to and from shows.  We've seen it at NTS and the job is well done!
I like to refer to his seams as the "Jeffrey Seam"
Speaking of seams, that might be an interesting feature for a future Z Track article?  Different folks could send in pictures for a photo album on their styles and techniques for seaming the world together.

Once again, because Z is so light weight, you can build lots of railroad for very little weight gain.
Z is the Jenny Craig of model railroad scales.
Keeping it light,
Loren

Show quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "randy smidt" <randy@...>
To: <Z-Bend_Track@...>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Z-Bend_Track] deck material for modules

I agree with Bill and Loren.  We are typically using 1/8" Luan plywood.  It is MUCH lighter than 1/4" but still gives good stiffness when fastened down to the frame work.  Then I use foam on top ranging from 1/2" up to multiple layers of 2" foam depending on the topography desired.
 I also would emphasize painting the frame work and plywood, including the underside that doesn't show.  I have seen modules warp, even just from extremely humid weather.  It is not pretty to see new fault lines develop in your scenery.
 Just out of curiousity, where are you located and what prototype do you plan on modeling?>
 Randy Smidt
 Washington, DC Z-Bend Track group

Re: deck material for modules

randy smidt

#691

I agree with Bill and Loren.  We are typically using 1/8" Luan plywood.  It is MUCH lighter than 1/4" but still gives good stiffness when fastened down to the frame work.  Then I use foam on top ranging from 1/2" up to multiple layers of 2" foam depending on the topography desired.
   
  I also would emphasize painting the frame work and plywood, including the underside that doesn't show.  I have seen modules warp, even just from extremely humid weather.  It is not pretty to see new fault lines develop in your scenery.
   
  Just out of curiousity, where are you located and what prototype do you plan on modeling?
   
  Randy Smidt
  Washington, DC Z-Bend Track group

cgwcnw <ksonta@...> wrote:
  With the plunge into Z, I have built 4 frames, two 60" X24" and two 30"X24" end modules.   
Framed several leg sets and the set up is very sturdy but a tad heavy.  Will post pictures and 
drawings when I get a chance.    The next step is to put down some deck on the frame.  My 
initial thoughts are to use 1/4" birch plywood with 1" foam on top to keep the mass down.  
This would allow for sub roadbed detailing, gullies, streams etc.    Read several magazine 
articles and noticed several alternatives  

1/2" plywood
1" or 2" foam board 
homosote
etc

For you folks that have modules what did you use?  Any pro's and cons from you experiences.

Thanks
kestutis sonta

  SPONSORED LINKS 
        G scale train   Ho scale model train   Model train n scale     G scale model train   Ho scale trains   N scale trains 
    
---------------------------------
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

    Visit your group "Z-Bend_Track" on the web.
    
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 Z-Bend_Track-unsubscribe@...
    
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

---------------------------------

Re: deck material for modules

Loren Snyder

#690

Hi Kestutis,
Personally I use only 1/8" door skins if I am using any plywood at all and I
prefer the different thicknesses of foam for the basic layout surface and
for building mountains and scenery.......or I also use Bragdon Enterprises
Geodasic Foam products to make the shell and cover them with either
Sculptamold or rock castings and then ground covers.  Using 1/8" ply panels
and 1" foam give plenty of sturdiness to your framework.  Go for light
weight!

I stay away from all heavy materials just to make module moving easier. 
Modules are designed to be light weight therefore they don't need to be
built to withstand earth quakes. Homosote is for other scales, we don't need
it at all with the wonderful materials available today.
Hope this is of some use to you,
Loren

deck material for modules

#688

With the plunge into Z, I have built 4 frames, two 60" X24" and two 30"X24" end modules.
Framed several leg sets and the set up is very sturdy but a tad heavy.  Will post pictures and
drawings when I get a chance.    The next step is to put down some deck on the frame.  My
initial thoughts are to use 1/4" birch plywood with 1" foam on top to keep the mass down.
This would allow for sub roadbed detailing, gullies, streams etc.    Read several magazine
articles and noticed several alternatives

1/2" plywood
1" or 2" foam board
homosote
etc

For you folks that have modules what did you use?  Any pro's and cons from you experiences.

Thanks
kestutis sonta

Re: deck material for modules

#689

ksonta@... writes:

For you folks that have modules what did you use?Mostly 1/8" thick plywood tops and a couple modules with 1/4" thick tops and 
all with 1x4 pine sides.  They have survived 8 years, traveled to just over 
100 shows and been to several national train shows bouncing around in a 2 wheel 
trailer or in a pickup truck bed.

What's *really* important is not what wood(s) you pick, but that (1) your 
module is mechanically sound, and (2) that you paint the plywood before you pour 
gallons and gallons of water based glues and scenery on it.   Plywood does not 
like getting wet. If the module can twist, your scenery will break up and 
track problems will show up.

Mis-mixed latex paint can be had for as little as $1 a gallon at the big-box 
lumberyards.  Buy lots of sheetrock screws and wood glue while you are there 
for the module frame assembly.  <smile>

Have fun !!!!!  Build what looks good to your eyes.

Bill K.
Houston

vinyl countertop material

Robin

#687

I am ready to put a side on my modules.  Where do I find vinyl
countertop material?

I can only find vinyl flooring or laminate countertops.  Nothing comes
up on internet search either.

Thanks,
Robin

Re: New file Choo Choo in French?

#686

--- In Z-Bend_Track@..., Z-Bend_Track@... wrote:


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Z-Bend_Track
group.

  File        : /4-talig treinenwoordenboek.pdf
I was in France as a GI back in 1953.  We were in Paris and needed to
get back to the train station.  Who knew that Paris had more than one
train station?  North, East, South, West and who knows where?

Could not even explain to the cab driver that we wanted a train
station.  Choo Choo did not mean a thing to him.  Arm motions like
driving rods on a locomotive did not mean a thing to him.  Pulling on
an imaginary cord and saying Toot Toot did not mean a thing to him.
Then the image of a sign that I saw as I left the station the day
before flashed in my mind.  I said, Le Gar du Nord.  The driver said
wee wee and we sped off.  Who knows were we were going.  It was the
right place.  My fellow traveler could not believe that I got it right.

That was probably the last time that I got anything right but I survive?

If I posted this in the other group, would I be banned?

Lajos, I'm just kidding.  Do you visit this group?  If you do, I'll be
seeing you at Costa Mesa.  Bring something to run.  Bring some heavy
duty military style Snail Speed Controllers.  You should have a market
for a few.  How about some SW-1s also.

Bill H.
El Toro, CA

New file uploaded to Z-Bend_Track

[email protected]

#685

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Z-Bend_Track 
group.

  File        : /4-talig treinenwoordenboek.pdf 
  Uploaded by : just_e_nough <ymvdveen@...> 
  Description : Small Railroad Vocabulary in 4 languages 

You can access this file at the URL:
 
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:

Regards,

just_e_nough <ymvdveen@...>

Re: Z scale standards and such

#684

--- In Z-Bend_Track@..., "SJ-BAZ man" <sj-baz-man@...>
wrote:

Bill,

An F letter drill is 6.528mm.  A handy reference for drills anddimensions
is: 

Jeff M
Thanks Jeff.

But my intention is to narrow the gauge.  If 6.5mm is OK for the
tightest Marklin curves then 6.5mm must be too wide for tangent
track.  This is consistent with the old "the gauge must be wider on
curves so we use a three point track gauge" rule.

A wide gauge on tangent track causes the wheels to "crab" down the
track.  This causes more derailments as the flanges scrub the side of
the rail and pick on little nicks and poor track work.  A tight gauge
will keep all wheels in line and prevent your locomotive
from "hunting" its way down the track.

There is a complete engineering reason for the design of the rail and
the wheel thread and the wheel flange that theoretically keeps the
wheel centered on the track.  Only on sharp curves should the flange
ever encounter the rail.  With model trains we have a side pressure
put on the wheels due to coupler spring action.  If there is a well
designed track and wheel combination theoretically the wheel flange
should never touch the rail.

I learned a lot about the relationship between wheel and rail by
reading an article about why Lionel trains seldom derail.  The main
reason for this is that they use a round top rail while scale
modelers use a more flat topped rail.  This was printed in an old
late 1940s Lionel Trains model magazine.

A too tight gauge will cause derailments if your wheels are not
checked for having a proper gauge.

The tighter gauge will also help in coupling.  It centers the
couplers so that they will properly couple.  This is more critical
with MT couplers than with the Marklin couplers.

If I misinterpreted your message, please forgive me.

Bill H.
El Toro, CA

Re: Z scale standards and such

SJ-BAZ man

#683

Bill,

An F letter drill is 6.528mm.  A handy reference for drills and dimensions
is: 

Jeff M

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Z-Bend_Track@... [mailto:Z-Bend_Track@...]On
Behalf Of Bill Hoshiko
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:31 AM
To: Z-Bend_Track@...
Subject: [Z-Bend_Track] Z scale standards and such

  --- In Z-Bend_Track@..., "cgwcnw" <ksonta@...> wrote:
  >
  > Ok folks, I bit the bullet and I am building four z tack modules,
  not sure if they will be z-> bend or t-trak style.  The current plan
  is to hand lay he track and coming from N-scale I need some pointers
  on several dimensions.
  >

  Hi cgwcnw or is it Ksonta or K. Sonta

  I don't mean to be poking fun but it is easier if we have a name or
  title that can be used when replying to your messages.

  I hope that I don't repeat any previous answers that you may have
  already received.

  You only need to conform to Zbend or Ttrack if you plan to connect
  your modules to any of them.  And then, you only need conforming
  track at those points were you will be making connections.
  ------------------

  1. Is there a commercially available track gauge one can obtain?

  Micro Trains has a combination coupler height gauge and a track
  gauge.  It is a track gauge for tangent track only.  See a picture at
  Z Scale Monster.com

  Republic Locomotive Works RLW has a NMRA type gauge and a three point
  gauge.  I don't know what size rail the three point gauge applies
  to.  It is probably for code 40 rail.  Three point track gauges are
  rail head size specific.  RLW caters to the N scale n3 narrow gauge
  crowd.  Nn3 uses Marklin Z scale mechanisms and track.  Visit the
  following site and scroll half way down for the track gauges.

  I don't know how applicable the Nn3 clearance gauge is to Z scale but
  the track gauge is accurate.  6.5mm  In my opinion, it is a little
  wide for Z scale tangent track.

  A British Z scale club also has a three point Z scale track gauge.
  Their three point gauge fits Marklin rail.  They also have a gauge
  for the back to back dimension of Z scale wheels.

  Personally I use a 1/4 inch square aluminum tube for tangent track
  and a short piece of 1/4 inch aluminum rod stood on end for curved
  track.  1/4 inch stock is equal to 6.35mm.  Since I am not very
  accurate with my work I rely on my sloppiness to achieve a proper
  track gauge.  Commercial Z gauge track is gauged to 6.5mm.  Even the
  sharpest Marklin curved sections are gauged to 6.5mm.  So much for
  having wider gauge in sharply curved track.  (Does that mean that a Z
  scale 3 point gauge causes sharply curved track to have a gauge that
  is over wide?) (Sometime ago, someone posted the different track
  gauges encountered in a Marklin turnout.  Does anyone remember where
  that was posted?  I want a reference to the narrowest portion of that
  track.)
  ----------------------

  2. What rail sizes are typically used   Code 40 /50/ other?

  There is no rail size that is typical for handlaid Z scale track.  At
  least, not yet.  I have seen Nn3 handlaid track using code 40 rail
  and I have seen pictures of Mark Fielder,s Pizza layout with handlaid
  track and Brian Harrap's Z scale layout which uses track and wheels
  to exact scale standards.  I may be wrong but I thought that I read
  somewhere that Brian heated Z scale rail and stretched it untill he
  got it drawn to an acceptable size.  Perhaps I just got that confused
  with Hiromi Masaki's work.

  For a look at Hiromi Masaki's work see:

  For flex track or sectional track there are three manufacturers.
  They all use different size rail.

  For a comparison of these three different tracks go to Sven-Martin
  Holt's website and scroll down to "Z-scale track dimensions".  Click
  on this and you will be taken to a site that lists the different rail
  sizes and their dimensions.  Sven-Martin has helpfully also posted a
  photo of the three different makes of track.  You can see that,
  besides using different size rail, each manufacturer has a different
  spacing for their ties.  The Peco and Marklin follow UK and European
  standards.  MicroTrains follow North American standards.  The Peco
  track is used by our North American Nn3 railroaders.  The wider tie
  spacing is closer to their N scale narrow gauge track standards.

  Code 40 rail is commonly available at your LHS or at any internet
  train store.  There is also a code 30 rail and a code 25 rail if you
  want even smaller rail.  These two rails do not have a rail profile
  They are ribbon rails but they present a very narrow rail head and
  give your Z trains a very convincing look.

  For the code 30 rail you will have to join the 2mm Scale Association.
     It is a British club and the membership is
  required for any purchases because of the UK tax laws.

  The code 25 rail is being sold by "David K. Smith"
  <david@...>.  You would have to email him to see if it is
  still available.

  For PC ties the 2mm Scale Association ties are the most convenient.
  They are cut to Z scale 8.5ft lengths and come with an insulating gap
  already cut in them.  I have some Fast Track Z scale ties but they
  came in 18ft scale lengths.  You will have to cut them in half to get
  9 ft ties and you will have to cut your own insulating gaps into the
  copper.

  Small rail has expansion problems when exposed to extreme heat
  variances.  Such as:  sitting for a time in direct sunlight.  Some of
  this problem can be overcome by using all PC ties.  The Nn3 folks
  have handlaid code 40 rail and they don't seem to be having any
  problems.  I think that they used all PC ties.  A Z scaler tried
  using every 6th tie as a PC tie but the rail expansion between the
  soldered ties made the track unusable.  Some people suggest that any
  rail be heated in an oven at 250 deg for a half hour.  This is
  supposed to relieve any stress that is in the rail. The stress is
  derived from it being drawn through a die to achieve the rail
  profile.  Others think that this is all hogwash.  Do as you wish.
  -----------------------

  3.  Turnouts frogs will be 5 for the yards and 7's  or 9's on the
  mainline.  What are the typical ones used in Z-scale?

  So far, we had only Marklin turnouts.  Now there are turnouts from
  Aspan    and there is The JHM company.  I
  could find no URL for them but you can find them through here:

  Marklin turnout has no frog # designation.  some say 4.5?
  The Aspan turnouts have no remarks about turnout angles.
  JHM has #6 and #8s.

  The Aspan and the JHM turnouts use wider tie spacing than the Micro
  Trains track.

  For most in this group, it seems that current Z scale modelers favor
  a turnout that can be substituted for a Marklin turnout.  That may be
  because most Z scale layouts 'till now, use Marklin sectional track
  and any turnout must be a drop in for the Marklin turnout.

  There have been reports of Z scale turnouts that have been handlaid
  at various frog angles but, to my knowledge, only Lajos Thek of Zthek
  has posted any photos to the net.  I have seen many photos of
  handlaid Nn3 turnouts but do not remember any for Z scale turnouts.
  -----------------------

  3. Coming from N-scale I have several track gauges that indicate
  clearances for the tunnel portals and bridges etc.  what are the
  equivalent clearances for Z gauge?

  There has been no published clearance standards for Z.  Many Z scale
  modelers use Marklin's minimum radius curves with Marklin's passenger
  cars and they require a lot of side clearance.  Until a few years ago
  there were no Z scale cars that required a lot of overhead
  clearance.  Overhead height was determined by Marklin's cantenary
  system.  Now that we have the Gunderson cars and soon, perhaps, the
  auto racks, many existing layouts will have clearance problems.  Just
  as the prototype RRs had problems with the new Post WWII equipment
  where they had to lower the tracks in their tunnels and under their
  bridges in order for these tall cars to clear.  Some of them removed
  double track mainlines and single tracked them in the center of the
  tunnel where there was more overhead height.

  You will have to determine your own overhead and side clearances
  depending on the type of equipment that you will use and the minimum
  radius that you will use.
  ------------------------

  I can't help you with the next two questions.  I still use an
  Electrapack Senior from Scintilla Rail and Power Works, Inc.  (circa
  1951) You crack that throttle just a little bit and my MTL F7 scoots
  down the track as if someone lit a firecracker to its' tail.

  4. My locomotives consists of   One MTL  F7's A-B-A set,  three MTL
  gp 35's and z-theks SW1.   I plan on converting these over to DCC
  with Lenz Gold decoders,  any hints and tips?

  5.  What DCC track voltages should one use,   I will have a Digitrax
  zephyr unit as my command station, Left over from N-scale.
  ---------------------

  6.  Where can one find decals for prr. I plan on painting the sw-1 to
  pensy.

  My understanding from the posts on this group, you will have to use
  existing N scale decals.  A couple of members in
   do make decals on special
  order.  I hope that you do not need decals for UP.  There is a legal
  staff at UP who are trying to justify their salaries by looking for
  the unlawful use of the UP logo.  (and they earn a LOT of money)  Who
  is Pennsy's successor?  the U.S. Government?  Conrail was U.S. Gvmt
  right?  They need money also.  That means the FBI and who is the head
  of all that?  The old boss of Brownie from FEMA and he is a lawyer
  too.  WOW!  If you hand lay track, I suggest that you hand letter
  your trains also.  There really is a conspiracy going on.  <;o((
  ---------------------------

  As I get into this deeper I know I will have more questions.

  Thanks
  ------------------------------------

  Bill K. I am sorry for the length of this post but K. asked a lot of
  questions.

  Hope that this helps some.  I have to quit here.  My aluminum hat is
  beginning to get uncomfortable. <:o))

  Bill H.
  El Toro, CA

  SPONSORED LINKS G scale train  Ho scale model train  Model train n scale
        G scale model train  Ho scale trains  N scale trains

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

    a..  Visit your group "Z-Bend_Track" on the web.

    b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     Z-Bend_Track-unsubscribe@...

    c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--