Cary vs Bowser M1

Henry,

? ? ?The question of the differences between Cary and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because there are many differences and also many similarities. Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original brass frame and the instructions that went with it that would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I guess that will have to wait. Here are some points about the two products that I am aware of currently:

1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about 25 years.

2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also available.

3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered locos.

4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a. Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR M1, M1a or M1b.

5. Bowser did eventually absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary boiler molds were previously destroyed in a fire.?

6. It may be because of a partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1 started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I suspect they would match up well.

Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser 4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional differences but they're not egregious. When I have more time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the dimensional differences of the various models and talk about the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also, at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have more time.?

? ? ??

Jeff

jppellas@...

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
To: yardbirdtrains
Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR M1as ?? Henry
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender
To: yardbirdtrains@...
Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM

?

As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking
PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser M1.
I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam
pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame with
drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually
purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out of
parts so they don't have everything to build an M1 but
they have the parts to complete the loco I've started.
Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this loco
than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market but
I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there
when I have the extra money so it does keep me from having
to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I also
have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I am
slowly acquiring parts for.?

Jeff
jppellas@...

-----Original
Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren
huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
<yardbirdtrains@...>
To:
yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>
Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass
tender

?

I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck
. I missed that Cary kit ? Henry

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...
[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
wrote:

Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

To: yardbirdtrains@...

Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM

?

The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1

pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for
more

parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that
Cary

M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare
brass

frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high for
me

but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of
things

that I may never get to them all but, first thing's

first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play out
the

way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year
THEN

the building of locos will commence.

Jeff

jppellas@...

-----Original

Message-----

From: huligin62@...

[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>

To: yardbirdtrains

<yardbirdtrains@...>

Sent:

Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM

Subject:

[yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

?

HI how

did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your Christmas

went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking
for

M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,
broke

my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO HO
HO

?? Henry?

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#4212

Thanks Jeff , great data . The latest Bowser model was in need of a good brush up . Got some more OEM parts that it was missing . One of my I1s has a brass boiler , Penn Line ? Thanks Jeff for great info help !!  Henry H.

--------------------------------------------

Show quoted text

On Fri, 1/5/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

 Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1
 To: yardbirdtrains@...
 Date: Friday, January 5, 2018, 3:44 PM

 ?

       Henry,

 ? ? ?The question of the differences between Cary
 and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because
 there are many differences and also many similarities.
 Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary
 M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original
 brass frame and the instructions that went with it that
 would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I
 guess that will have to wait. Here are some points
 about the two products that I am aware of currently:

 1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about
 25 years.

 2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing
 models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether
 it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a
 Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary
 offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it
 was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was
 hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered
 as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also
 available.

 3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic
 Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser
 boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional
 weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered
 locos.

 4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a.
 Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR
 M1, M1a or M1b.

 5. Bowser did eventually
 absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to
 Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an
 entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary
 boiler molds were previously destroyed in a
 fire.?

 6. It may be because of a
 partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked
 together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the
 Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA
 chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to
 modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation
 of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA
 chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1
 started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the
 compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I
 suspect they would match up well.

 Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser
 4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to
 be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many
 mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional
 differences but they're not egregious. When I have more
 time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the
 dimensional differences of the various models and talk about
 the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that
 compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save
 that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also,
 at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass
 M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have
 more time.?

 ? ? ??

 Jeff

 jppellas@...

 -----Original
 Message-----

 From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
 <yardbirdtrains@...>

 To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>

 Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm

 Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

 ?

 What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR
 M1as ??   Henry

 --------------------------------------------

 On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...
 [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
 wrote:

 Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

  To: yardbirdtrains@...

  Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM

  ?

        As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking

  PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser
 M1.

  I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam

  pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame
 with

  drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually

  purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out
 of

  parts so they don't have everything to build an M1
 but

  they have the parts to complete the loco I've
 started.

  Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this
 loco

  than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market
 but

  I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there

  when I have the extra money so it does keep me from
 having

  to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I
 also

  have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I
 am

  slowly acquiring parts for.?

  Jeff

  jppellas@...

  -----Original

  Message-----

  From: Henry Hultgren

  huligin62@...
 [yardbirdtrains]

  <yardbirdtrains@...>

  To:

  yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>

  Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM

  Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass

  tender

  ?

        I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck

  . I missed that Cary kit ? Henry

  --------------------------------------------

  On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...

  [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>

  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

   To: yardbirdtrains@...

   Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM

   ?

         The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1

   pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for

  more

   parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that

  Cary

   M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare

  brass

   frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high
 for

  me

   but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of

  things

   that I may never get to them all but, first thing's

   first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play
 out

  the

   way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year

  THEN

   the building of locos will commence.

   Jeff

   jppellas@...

   -----Original

   Message-----

   From: huligin62@...

   [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>

   To: yardbirdtrains

   <yardbirdtrains@...>

   Sent:

   Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM

   Subject:

   [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

   ?

   HI how

   did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your
 Christmas

   went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking

  for

   M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,

  broke

   my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO
 HO

  HO

   ?? Henry?

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#4214

Henry,
     I'd like to see a picture of your brass boilered I1. Cary did make a small number of brass castings of their decapod shell which would then be combined with a Penn Line chassis. Those are very rare!

Jeff
jppellas@...

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>
Sent: Fri, Jan 5, 2018 07:17 PM
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1

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      <p>Thanks Jeff , great data . The latest Bowser model was in need of a good brush up . Got some more OEM parts that it was missing . One of my I1s has a brass boiler , Penn Line ? Thanks Jeff for great info help !!  Henry H.

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 1/5/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a> [yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>> wrote:

Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1

 To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>

 Date: Friday, January 5, 2018, 3:44 PM

       Henry,

      The question of the differences between Cary

 and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because

 there are many differences and also many similarities.

 Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary

 M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original

 brass frame and the instructions that went with it that

 would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I

 guess that will have to wait. Here are some points

 about the two products that I am aware of currently:

 1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about

 25 years.

 2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing

 models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether

 it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a

 Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary

 offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it

 was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was

 hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered

 as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also

 available.

 3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic

 Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser

 boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional

 weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered

 locos.

 4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a.

 Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR

 M1, M1a or M1b.

 5. Bowser did eventually

 absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to

 Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an

 entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary

 boiler molds were previously destroyed in a

 fire.

 6. It may be because of a

 partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked

 together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the

 Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA

 chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to

 modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation

 of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA

 chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1

 started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the

 compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I

 suspect they would match up well.

 Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser

 4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to

 be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many

 mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional

 differences but they're not egregious. When I have more

 time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the

 dimensional differences of the various models and talk about

 the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that

 compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save

 that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also,

 at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass

 M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have

 more time.

 Jeff

 <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

 -----Original

 Message-----

 From: Henry Hultgren <a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a> [yardbirdtrains]

 <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

 To: yardbirdtrains <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

 Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm

 Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

 What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR

 M1as ??   Henry

 --------------------------------------------

 On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

 [yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

 wrote:

 Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

  To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>

  Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM

        As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking

  PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser

 M1.

  I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam

  pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame

 with

  drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually

  purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out

 of

  parts so they don't have everything to build an M1

 but

  they have the parts to complete the loco I've

 started.

  Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this

 loco

  than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market

 but

  I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there

  when I have the extra money so it does keep me from

 having

  to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I

 also

  have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I

 am

  slowly acquiring parts for.

  Jeff

  <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

  -----Original

  Message-----

  From: Henry Hultgren

  <a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a>

 [yardbirdtrains]

  <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

  To:

  yardbirdtrains <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

  Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM

  Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass

  tender

        I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck

  . I missed that Cary kit ? Henry

  --------------------------------------------

  On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

  [yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

   To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>

   Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM

         The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1

   pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for

  more

   parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that

  Cary

   M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare

  brass

   frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high

 for

  me

   but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of

  things

   that I may never get to them all but, first thing's

   first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play

 out

  the

   way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year

  THEN

   the building of locos will commence.

   Jeff

   <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

   -----Original

   Message-----

   From: <a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a>

   [yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

   To: yardbirdtrains

   <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

   Sent:

   Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM

   Subject:

   [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

   HI how

   did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your

 Christmas

   went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking

  for

   M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,

  broke

   my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO

 HO

  HO

   ?? Henry

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#4243

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry

#4244

Gents, please keep in mind that many models have been designed from RR drawing or even from diagrams.

As a result, the model boiler was based on the actual diameter of the boiler.? This did not include the additional

diameter of the lagging and jacket.? Then when one encounters a model based on actual measurements there?

can be a significant difference in apparent boiler diameter.?

Chuck Peck

Show quoted text

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM, huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

?

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry

#4245

Also keep in mind that some model drawings in the various magazines weren't exact either and were used by manufacturers to produce models.

Roger Huber

Deer Creek Locomotive Works

On Saturday, February 17, 2018, 11:43:13 AM CST, Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [yardbirdtrains] wrote:

Gents, please keep in mind that many models have been designed from RR drawing or even from diagrams.

As a result, the model boiler was based on the actual diameter of the boiler.? This did not include the additional

diameter of the lagging and jacket.? Then when one encounters a model based on actual measurements there?

can be a significant difference in apparent boiler diameter.?

Chuck Peck

Show quoted text

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM, huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

?

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry

#4246

Guys, I am no rivet counter. I just think the history of these models and how they evolved is interesting. ?As to the Cary I1, I also have two different Cary i1 boilers. The older boiler is maybe very slightly larger. The sand box on the older boiler is also slightly askew. The original that they used to make the molds must have had that defect (if you want to call it that). The later boiler is more refined and the sand dome is completely even. I know there were two generations of USRA light boilers as well. Don't know about any of the other boilers. The Cary boilers are definitely bigger than the final Bowser boiler which, itself, is bigger than the Penn Line boiler.

Jeff
jppellas@...

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
To: yardbirdtrains
Sent: Sat, Feb 17, 2018 12:38 PM
Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Cary vs Bowser M1

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry

#4248

Thanks Jeff !! Wow .Many differences .? ?Henry H.

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Cary vs Bowser M1