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Cary vs Bowser M1

 

Henry,

? ? ?The question of the differences between Cary and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because there are many differences and also many similarities. Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original brass frame and the instructions that went with it that would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I guess that will have to wait. Here are some points about the two products that I am aware of currently:

1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about 25 years.

2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also available.

3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered locos.

4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a. Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR M1, M1a or M1b.

5. Bowser did eventually absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary boiler molds were previously destroyed in a fire.?

6. It may be because of a partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1 started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I suspect they would match up well.

Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser 4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional differences but they're not egregious. When I have more time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the dimensional differences of the various models and talk about the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also, at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have more time.?
? ? ??

Jeff
jppellas@...


-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
To: yardbirdtrains
Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

?
What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR M1as ?? Henry
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender
To: yardbirdtrains@...
Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM


?









As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking
PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser M1.
I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam
pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame with
drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually
purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out of
parts so they don't have everything to build an M1 but
they have the parts to complete the loco I've started.
Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this loco
than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market but
I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there
when I have the extra money so it does keep me from having
to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I also
have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I am
slowly acquiring parts for.?

Jeff
jppellas@...


-----Original
Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren
huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
<yardbirdtrains@...>
To:
yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>
Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass
tender





?









I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck
. I missed that Cary kit ? Henry

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...
[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
wrote:



Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender

To: yardbirdtrains@...

Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM





?



















The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1

pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for
more

parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that
Cary

M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare
brass

frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high for
me

but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of
things

that I may never get to them all but, first thing's

first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play out
the

way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year
THEN

the building of locos will commence.

Jeff

jppellas@...





-----Original

Message-----

From: huligin62@...

[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>

To: yardbirdtrains

<yardbirdtrains@...>

Sent:

Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM

Subject:

[yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender











?

























HI how

did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your Christmas

went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking
for

M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,
broke

my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO HO
HO

?? Henry?































































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Thanks Jeff , great data . The latest Bowser model was in need of a good brush up . Got some more OEM parts that it was missing . One of my I1s has a brass boiler , Penn Line ? Thanks Jeff for great info help !! Henry H.

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 1/5/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:

Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1
To: yardbirdtrains@...
Date: Friday, January 5, 2018, 3:44 PM


?









Henry,



? ? ?The question of the differences between Cary
and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because
there are many differences and also many similarities.
Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary
M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original
brass frame and the instructions that went with it that
would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I
guess that will have to wait. Here are some points
about the two products that I am aware of currently:





1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about
25 years.





2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing
models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether
it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a
Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary
offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it
was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was
hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered
as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also
available.





3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic
Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser
boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional
weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered
locos.





4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a.
Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR
M1, M1a or M1b.





5. Bowser did eventually
absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to
Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an
entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary
boiler molds were previously destroyed in a
fire.?





6. It may be because of a
partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked
together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the
Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA
chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to
modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation
of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA
chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1
started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the
compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I
suspect they would match up well.





Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser
4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to
be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many
mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional
differences but they're not egregious. When I have more
time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the
dimensional differences of the various models and talk about
the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that
compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save
that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also,
at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass
M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have
more time.?

? ? ??





Jeff


jppellas@...








-----Original
Message-----

From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
<yardbirdtrains@...>

To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>

Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm

Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender








?













What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR
M1as ?? Henry


--------------------------------------------


On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...
[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
wrote:





Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender


To: yardbirdtrains@...


Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM








?





























As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking


PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser
M1.


I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam


pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame
with


drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually


purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out
of


parts so they don't have everything to build an M1
but


they have the parts to complete the loco I've
started.


Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this
loco


than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market
but


I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there


when I have the extra money so it does keep me from
having


to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I
also


have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I
am


slowly acquiring parts for.?





Jeff


jppellas@...








-----Original


Message-----


From: Henry Hultgren


huligin62@...
[yardbirdtrains]


<yardbirdtrains@...>


To:


yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>


Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM


Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass


tender

















?





























I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck


. I missed that Cary kit ? Henry





--------------------------------------------





On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas jppellas@...


[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>


wrote:











Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender





To: yardbirdtrains@...





Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM

















?



























































The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1





pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for


more





parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that


Cary





M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare


brass





frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high
for


me





but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of


things





that I may never get to them all but, first thing's





first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play
out


the





way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year


THEN





the building of locos will commence.





Jeff





jppellas@...

















-----Original





Message-----





From: huligin62@...





[yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>





To: yardbirdtrains





<yardbirdtrains@...>





Sent:





Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM





Subject:





[yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender



































?













































































HI how





did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your
Christmas





went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking


for





M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,


broke





my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO
HO


HO





?? Henry?































































































































































































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Henry,
I'd like to see a picture of your brass boilered I1. Cary did make a small number of brass castings of their decapod shell which would then be combined with a Penn Line chassis. Those are very rare!

Jeff
jppellas@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Hultgren huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...>
To: yardbirdtrains <yardbirdtrains@...>
Sent: Fri, Jan 5, 2018 07:17 PM
Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1



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<p>Thanks Jeff , great data . The latest Bowser model was in need of a good brush up . Got some more OEM parts that it was missing . One of my I1s has a brass boiler , Penn Line ? Thanks Jeff for great info help !! Henry H.



--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 1/5/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a> [yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>> wrote:



Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Cary vs Bowser M1

To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>

Date: Friday, January 5, 2018, 3:44 PM

























Henry,







The question of the differences between Cary

and Bowser M1 boilers is kind of a complicated one because

there are many differences and also many similarities.

Frankly, one of the reasons I wanted to acquire that Cary

M1a that was recently on eBay was because of the original

brass frame and the instructions that went with it that

would have completed the story of the Cary boiler for me. I

guess that will have to wait. Here are some points

about the two products that I am aware of currently:











1. The Cary boiler predates the Bowser boilers by about

25 years.











2. The Cary boiler was meant to be used with existing

models of that day. What I'm not sure about is whether

it was meant to be used with parts from a Varney 4-8-4 or a

Bowser (Redlands) 4-8-2 or either. I don't know if Cary

offered a complete set of brass details back then or if it

was up to the modeler to find them. That was something I was

hoping to find out. Meanwhile the Bowser PRR M1 was offered

as a complete kit with a complete super detail kit also

available.











3. The Cary boiler was made out of their characteristic

Lead/Antimony alloy and was very heavy by itself. The Bowser

boiler was cast from lighter Zinc and required additional

weight to give it comparable traction to the Cary boilered

locos.











4. The Cary boiler allowed one to model a PRR M1a.

Bowser had kit variations that allowed one to model the PR

M1, M1a or M1b.











5. Bowser did eventually

absorb Cary Loco Works and added Cary detail parts to

Bowser's inventory but they had to come out with an

entirely new boiler for their M1 model because the Cary

boiler molds were previously destroyed in a

fire.











6. It may be because of a

partnership between Bowser and Cary (they definitely worked

together on the short lived Bowser USRA Heavy 4-8-2) but the

Cary boiler pretty much matches and will fit any Bowser USRA

chassis going back several decades. Sometimes you have to

modify the boiler or chassis (depending on which generation

of USRA kit) but not much. I have two older Bowser USRA

chassis under my two Cary M1a's. My Bowser boilered M1

started with a Bowser USRA Light chassis. Not sure about the

compatibility with the older Redlands Bowser 4-8-2 but I

suspect they would match up well.











Bottom line is, when it comes to Cary and Bowser

4-8-2s, there are enough similarities and common lineages to

be able to mix and match not just detail parts but many

mechanical parts fairly easily. There are dimensional

differences but they're not egregious. When I have more

time, I'd like to go more in depth to measure the

dimensional differences of the various models and talk about

the compatibility with USRA 4-8-2 parts and how all of that

compares to the prototype PRR M1 locos but I'll save

that for another time (when I have more time). I'd also,

at some point, like to pick up a BLI M1a and a Sunset brass

M1 and do further investigating and comparing... when I have

more time.















Jeff





<a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

















-----Original

Message-----



From: Henry Hultgren <a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a> [yardbirdtrains]

<<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>



To: yardbirdtrains <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>



Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 4:11 pm



Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender













































What are the differences between Cary and Bowser PRR

M1as ?? Henry





--------------------------------------------





On Tue, 1/2/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

[yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>

wrote:











Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender





To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>





Date: Tuesday, January 2, 2018, 12:30 PM













































































As far as M1 parts...assuming you're talking





PRR M1...I have been gradually piecing together a Bowser

M1.





I was able to find assembled valve gear, a pair of steam





pipes for the cylinders, a Penn line tender and a frame

with





drivers on eBay. Everything else I've been gradually





purchasing directly from Bowser. Bowser is running out

of





parts so they don't have everything to build an M1

but





they have the parts to complete the loco I've

started.





Yes, eventually, I'll end up paying more for this

loco





than if I had found a complete one on the 2ndary market

but





I am able to make smaller parts purchases here and there





when I have the extra money so it does keep me from

having





to pony up a larger amount for a one time purchase. I

also





have two Cary M1a 's riding on Bowser chassis that I

am





slowly acquiring parts for.











Jeff





<a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>

















-----Original





Message-----





From: Henry Hultgren





<a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a>

[yardbirdtrains]





<<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>





To:





yardbirdtrains <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>





Sent: Tue, Jan 2, 2018 05:51 AM





Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass





tender































































































I bow to your logical approach Jeff . Best of luck





. I missed that Cary kit ? Henry











--------------------------------------------











On Mon, 1/1/18, Jeff Pellas <a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>





[yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>





wrote:























Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender











To: <a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>











Date: Monday, January 1, 2018, 7:00 PM



























































































































































The Cary tender is in a drawer with what other N1











pieces I have... which is to say I am still looking for





more











parts as well. As far as M1 parts go, did you see that





Cary











M1a kit that sold on eBay recently? Had the super rare





brass











frame and instructions with it. Got a little too high

for





me











but I coveted it. I have so many parts and pieces of





things











that I may never get to them all but, first thing's











first: a layout to run the trains on. If things play

out





the











way I'm hoping, I'll start it within the year





THEN











the building of locos will commence.











Jeff











<a href="mailto:jppellas@...">jppellas@...</a>



































-----Original











Message-----











From: <a href="mailto:huligin62@...">huligin62@...</a>











[yardbirdtrains] <<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>











To: yardbirdtrains











<<a href="mailto:yardbirdtrains@...">yardbirdtrains@...</a>>











Sent:











Sun, Dec 31, 2017 07:03 AM











Subject:











[yardbirdtrains] Re: PRR brass tender



































































































































































































































HI how











did that Cary tender kit shake out ? Hope your

Christmas











went well , I've got all of PRR steam now , looking





for











M1 pieces . And I fell off a chair putting up lights ,





broke











my wrist . They casted it , no cutting this time . HO

HO





HO











?? Henry































































































































































































































































































































































































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Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry
 

Gents, please keep in mind that many models have been designed from RR drawing or even from diagrams.
As a result, the model boiler was based on the actual diameter of the boiler.? This did not include the additional
diameter of the lagging and jacket.? Then when one encounters a model based on actual measurements there?
can be a significant difference in apparent boiler diameter.?
Chuck Peck

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM, huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:
?

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry
 

Also keep in mind that some model drawings in the various magazines weren't exact either and were used by manufacturers to produce models.

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Saturday, February 17, 2018, 11:43:13 AM CST, Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [yardbirdtrains] wrote:


?

Gents, please keep in mind that many models have been designed from RR drawing or even from diagrams.
As a result, the model boiler was based on the actual diameter of the boiler.? This did not include the additional
diameter of the lagging and jacket.? Then when one encounters a model based on actual measurements there?
can be a significant difference in apparent boiler diameter.?
Chuck Peck

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM, huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains] <yardbirdtrains@...> wrote:
?

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry
 

Guys, I am no rivet counter. I just think the history of these models and how they evolved is interesting. ?As to the Cary I1, I also have two different Cary i1 boilers. The older boiler is maybe very slightly larger. The sand box on the older boiler is also slightly askew. The original that they used to make the molds must have had that defect (if you want to call it that). The later boiler is more refined and the sand dome is completely even. I know there were two generations of USRA light boilers as well. Don't know about any of the other boilers. The Cary boilers are definitely bigger than the final Bowser boiler which, itself, is bigger than the Penn Line boiler.

Jeff
jppellas@...


-----Original Message-----
From: huligin62@... [yardbirdtrains]
To: yardbirdtrains
Sent: Sat, Feb 17, 2018 12:38 PM
Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Cary vs Bowser M1


?

Jeff ! I did a side by side comparison of the brass boilered I1 and it's brother ? The Brass one is a bigger diameter across , the sand domes are slightly differentas are the turret cover casting > Wife has been sick? for a while now , I'll get those pics on here sooner I hope .? Henry
 

Thanks Jeff !! Wow .Many differences .? ?Henry H.

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