|
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Always a way to upgrade to DCC . BTW ,Dan doesn't work on DCC . Lots of members in this group run and work on DCC . Check the past emails . FYI this site and YB Classic Trains are two different entities with one owner ? Henry
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--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "cwvpost1" <pgkdave@...> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Dirty tender wheels and contact surfaces between the trucks and the tender body is where the electrical path is the weakest. Cleaning these areas will usually clear up the erratic running problem but only temporarily. Over time the poor running will return. For much improved reliable running, especially of you wish to convert to DCC you will need to make some improvements to the electrical pick-up system.
Starting with the tender, remove both trucks and drill out the rivet on only one side so that the wheels can be replaced with better metal wheels that are insulated on one side. I have used Bachmann wheels for this purpose that work very well. Then replace the rivet with a screw or nut and bolt. The hole can also be threaded so that a nut is not needed.
Next, solder a flexible wire to the rivet on the other side of the truck and connect it to the tender chassis with a screw after drilling and taping a hole for it. These steps will insure good electrical pick-up. Since the tender is only providing power from the left hand rail, it may be necessary to add wipers to the right hand wheels for all wheels pick-up which is what DCC usually requires. It will then be necessary to run a separate wire to the engine that carries the power from the right rail.
That brings up the engine which again is only picking up power from the right hand side. By adding wipers to the left hand driving wheels you will have power pick-up coming from
almost all wheels, thereby insuring the best possible power delivery to the motor for DC operation or to the decoder for DCC operation.
Richard in Vermont
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--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "cwvpost1" <pgkdave@...> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
In addition to Richard's tips, make sure the wire lugs screwed to the drawbar posts on the loco and tender aren't turned so they are touching. That will create a dead short between the loco & tender frames. If you're going to DCC it I would at least sleeve both lugs with shrink tubing, since this arrangement is just asking for trouble.
Nelson
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--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "Richard" <rh@...> wrote:
Dirty tender wheels and contact surfaces between the trucks and the tender body is where the electrical path is the weakest. Cleaning these areas will usually clear up the erratic running problem but only temporarily. Over time the poor running will return. For much improved reliable running, especially of you wish to convert to DCC you will need to make some improvements to the electrical pick-up system.
Starting with the tender, remove both trucks and drill out the rivet on only one side so that the wheels can be replaced with better metal wheels that are insulated on one side. I have used Bachmann wheels for this purpose that work very well. Then replace the rivet with a screw or nut and bolt. The hole can also be threaded so that a nut is not needed.
Next, solder a flexible wire to the rivet on the other side of the truck and connect it to the tender chassis with a screw after drilling and taping a hole for it. These steps will insure good electrical pick-up. Since the tender is only providing power from the left hand rail, it may be necessary to add wipers to the right hand wheels for all wheels pick-up which is what DCC usually requires. It will then be necessary to run a separate wire to the engine that carries the power from the right rail.
That brings up the engine which again is only picking up power from the right hand side. By adding wipers to the left hand driving wheels you will have power pick-up coming from
almost all wheels, thereby insuring the best possible power delivery to the motor for DC operation or to the decoder for DCC operation.
Richard in Vermont
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "cwvpost1" <pgkdave@> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Forgive me if I am too simplistic here:
It is a common thing for non- electronically inclined people to
say "shorted out" when an electrical item "does not work", but
this misnomer confuses trouble shooting. First, please understand
the difference between "shorting out" and "having intermittent
contact". My guess is that the problem is the latter, common with
models that have never been run. But, if the the real symptom is
drawing lots of current ---dimming of the indicator light (if you
have one) or a heavy "buzzing sound" when the power is applied on
your power supply, then it is shorting out. The trouble shooting
steps and fixing is different for each symptom.
If the unit is indeed new in the box and for real shorted out,
what I would look for first is a tender truck that is installed
backwards (turned 180*). All four insulated wheels of the tender
should be on the engineer's side.? A stuck motor or mechanism can
look like a short, and this sometimes happens. Applying power and
"helping" the mechanism by hand at first can break things free if
they are temporarily stuck. When the motor begins to run, the
excessive current that looks like a short will go away. It is
always a good idea to properly re-lubricate any machinery that has
been inactive for 20 years. That means a sparing drop of medium
weight oil on the moving parts, such as the motor bearings, worm
and pinion, axle bearings and side rods at their pins. Model steam
engines for the most part use the side rods to transmit running
forces to the non-geared drive wheels, so these are crucial for
good operation and longevity to be lubricated.
A stuck mechanism is possible if the side rods and valve gear have
been damaged or out of place. I don't remember if the Lindberg
engine model has valve gear, but the real #460 did. Since steam
has been gone from the scene for so long, more and more people
find the side rods and valve gear to be a total mystery. They must
be set right or the engine will at best not run right, and at
worst be stuck, thus locking the motor and looking like a short
electrically. If you do all the suggestions here and have no
success, shoot a good, close picture of both sides of the engine
and post them to us to see of they rods are set right. Many of us
here on Yardbirds understand both the real thing and model
representations of them.
The best test for a newly running engine is to run it on the bench
(after careful lubrication) before ever putting it on the track,
just to loosen it up a bit. This is done by supporting the engine
and tender in some sort of cradle upside down. Power from the
power pack is applied to the engine and tender and this eliminates
the probable contact problems at the wheels. One wire to the
engine frame somewhere and the other to the tender, run the engine
both ways for a few minute at medium speed. Then, while running
lightly polish the drive wheel surface with 1000 grit emery paper
to polish the tire's running surfaces. Polishing the metal
surfaces of the tender truck wheels is more tedious as you must
polish each wheel by hand. Get 'em good and shiny and the engine
should run just fine on clean track. If the engine will not run in
this manner and there was sparking of the wires where they
contacted to engine or tender frame, then you do indeed have a
short.
Clean track is also important, a similar polishing of the rail
heads helps a lot too.
The engine must first run well on DC, though the standard motor
used is not the best for DCC operation. It can be adapted though,
if you are willing to modify the motor a little. Our mentor and
sponsor Dan at Yardbird Trains offers a very nice upgrade motor
and flywheel kit that can solve a lot of the problems Mantua and
Tyco engines have out of the box and for easier conversion to DCC.
Try the above steps and get back to us, hope this helps.
Tom Knowles
NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...
On 3/21/2013 4:26 PM, cwvpost1 wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2
Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20
Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran
erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the
problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Excellent suggestions Tom. ?I have gotten used to folks referring to electrical issues as shorts and I agree, educating on this is a good thing. ?While shorts may occur, they are very, very rare in my experience. ?Usually it is like you said, intermittent contact issues, ie. dirty track, wipers or wheels. I will add one thing about the DCC ability. ?Yes, Dan's wormfly can motor setups are the best way to go. ?But, if one wishes to keep the open frame motor, then it can successfully and easily be upgraded by using neodymium magnets. ?In fact John Brazaitis has been re-fitting some of these old Mantua motors with the newer magnets and the end up with very good slow speed characteristics and pull much less current at normal use, so become very good DCC motors. ?You do need to isolate these from the frame tho, whereas Dan Bush's wormfly motors are already isolated. ?It mostly depends on how much you wish to spend. ?John has been selling his modified motors on ebay at very reasonable prices. Regards, Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC
To: yardbirdtrains@... From: tomk@... Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 12:14:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [yardbirdtrains] Mantua Classic Lindbergh Special 4-4-2
?
Forgive me if I am too simplistic here:
It is a common thing for non- electronically inclined people to
say "shorted out" when an electrical item "does not work", but
this misnomer confuses trouble shooting. First, please understand
the difference between "shorting out" and "having intermittent
contact". My guess is that the problem is the latter, common with
models that have never been run. But, if the the real symptom is
drawing lots of current ---dimming of the indicator light (if you
have one) or a heavy "buzzing sound" when the power is applied on
your power supply, then it is shorting out. The trouble shooting
steps and fixing is different for each symptom.
If the unit is indeed new in the box and for real shorted out,
what I would look for first is a tender truck that is installed
backwards (turned 180*). All four insulated wheels of the tender
should be on the engineer's side.? A stuck motor or mechanism can
look like a short, and this sometimes happens. Applying power and
"helping" the mechanism by hand at first can break things free if
they are temporarily stuck. When the motor begins to run, the
excessive current that looks like a short will go away. It is
always a good idea to properly re-lubricate any machinery that has
been inactive for 20 years. That means a sparing drop of medium
weight oil on the moving parts, such as the motor bearings, worm
and pinion, axle bearings and side rods at their pins. Model steam
engines for the most part use the side rods to transmit running
forces to the non-geared drive wheels, so these are crucial for
good operation and longevity to be lubricated.
A stuck mechanism is possible if the side rods and valve gear have
been damaged or out of place. I don't remember if the Lindberg
engine model has valve gear, but the real #460 did. Since steam
has been gone from the scene for so long, more and more people
find the side rods and valve gear to be a total mystery. They must
be set right or the engine will at best not run right, and at
worst be stuck, thus locking the motor and looking like a short
electrically. If you do all the suggestions here and have no
success, shoot a good, close picture of both sides of the engine
and post them to us to see of they rods are set right. Many of us
here on Yardbirds understand both the real thing and model
representations of them.
The best test for a newly running engine is to run it on the bench
(after careful lubrication) before ever putting it on the track,
just to loosen it up a bit. This is done by supporting the engine
and tender in some sort of cradle upside down. Power from the
power pack is applied to the engine and tender and this eliminates
the probable contact problems at the wheels. One wire to the
engine frame somewhere and the other to the tender, run the engine
both ways for a few minute at medium speed. Then, while running
lightly polish the drive wheel surface with 1000 grit emery paper
to polish the tire's running surfaces. Polishing the metal
surfaces of the tender truck wheels is more tedious as you must
polish each wheel by hand. Get 'em good and shiny and the engine
should run just fine on clean track. If the engine will not run in
this manner and there was sparking of the wires where they
contacted to engine or tender frame, then you do indeed have a
short.
Clean track is also important, a similar polishing of the rail
heads helps a lot too.
The engine must first run well on DC, though the standard motor
used is not the best for DCC operation. It can be adapted though,
if you are willing to modify the motor a little. Our mentor and
sponsor Dan at Yardbird Trains offers a very nice upgrade motor
and flywheel kit that can solve a lot of the problems Mantua and
Tyco engines have out of the box and for easier conversion to DCC.
Try the above steps and get back to us, hope this helps.
Tom Knowles
NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...
On 3/21/2013 4:26 PM, cwvpost1 wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
?
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2
Atlantic that was still New In the Box. It is over 20
Years Old. When I tried to Run it on a test track, it ran
erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the
problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
| If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on oxidized tender bolsters. ?Every Mantua 4-4-2 I've worked over had this problem. ?For some reason the lot of pot metal used for the tender floors picks up the usual Mantua carbonized black junk very quickly. ?The first one I worked on about drove me nuts till I figured it out. ?When clean, they'll run like a dream, then gradually get worse and final run in stops and starts, just like you're experiencing. ?Could be something else of course, but that's what I'd check first. ?Try polishing them and the tender truck bolsters up. ?Mantua put a copper washer on some of them to try to help with this problem, but it doesn't do much good. ?A tiny amount of contact cleaner will keep them working properly for a longer period of time, but eventually you'll be back to cleaning the same area. ? ??The real long term
fix as already has been mentioned is to equip the tender trucks with wipers and hard wire them to the tender frame. ?I think the easiest way to do this would be to solder spring bronze wire to the tender trucks. ?Have done that this year on a whole bunch of General trucks with very good results.. If you need some spring wire, contact me off list...it doesn't take much ??I'd also check to make sure all the wheels of all your tender trucks are in contact with the rail. ?This loco has some issues with that, esp. depending on what Mantua truck was used. ?The one that should be there and seems to work best is the "Reading" style truck, but various trucks were substituted depending on what was on hand during assembly, and who did what after the engine was sold. ??All the 4-4-2 s I've worked on had a nice can motor and gear box. ?Don't know if they were all that way, but those ran very nicely once contact problems were resolved,
and should convert to DCC easily. ?Hardest part of the DCC conversion will be wiring up those nifty operating marker lampas. ?Haven't done one yet, but think you'll need to add a resistor to drop track voltage down on them. ??Finally, thanks for the kind words, Vic! ?Here I thought I was sneaking quietly onto Ebay...you just can't get nothing past some people (lol). ??My latest project has been working over a group of 6 Rivarossi 4-4-0' s for a gentleman, as well as 3 J. W Bokers. ?He's decided that he really likes not having to hassle with dogbones, so they are all getting two piece brass tubing drive shafts and can motors. ?Think at this point I could write a small book on pick problems on these engines, and how to solve them...basicaly the problems, no matter what they act like come down to poor driver pickup. ?I'm find both the wipers and the little spring plungers just don't act like they are supposed to, and am just
modifying them as a matter of course...the improvement in performance is simply amazing. Continuing on my present HO layout, but have just bough a lot of really old O gauge Truscale tack from the New Orleans area. ?This stuff came out of a club down there and is old enough that there is a high probability that Frank Ellision among others ran stuff on it. ?Got in mind a small O scale loop arounf the workshop to test and play with as well as some On30 trackwork, that will also double as ?an HO repair test loop, so I don't have to keep running from the bench to the layout to test stuff.
??Finally got a pair of beautiful Tenoshodo GN articulated locomotives from a friend to clean up and sell. ?They all have rotten foam, but I won't know how bad till I get into them. ?If any of you are looking for one of these, drop me a line...maybe we can work a deal that leaves everybody
happy. ??Apart from that we ain't been blown or washed away yet down here in the Ozarks, but it's been a close thing a time or two. ?Any of you guys going to be at Atlanta next month...maybe I'll run into you. JBB ?? |
|
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail thing, you should be able to. Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@...> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was still New In the Box. ?It is over 20 Years Old. ?When I tried to ?Run it on a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
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I agree, it is probably the tender trucks. I reworked a Mantua goat that I assembled 30 yrs. ago. Put in a can motor, flywheel NWSL idler gear box & a decoder....Wouldn't run worth a darn. After sitting on the shelf for a couple of years I discovered a conductive grease ( NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL from Sanchem Inc. Disassembled the trucks, polished them, put a SMALL dab of grease on axle ends & all contact points. It ran like a dream & still does after over a year. You can also use this product on the tracks...."A little Dab Will Do Ya"
I got the 2 oz. tub that will last me 3 or 4 lifetimes.
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Show quoted text
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Nathan Rich <thaddeusthudpucker@...> wrote:
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon
screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail
thing, you should be able to.
Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@...> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was
still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on
a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any
suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
|
YES !!!
While I've been using more of a liquid form of the stuff, I've been doing the same since the early '70's
Man, does the method work well!
What proved it to me was a very long shelved 0-4-2t Athearn steamer bought at a swap meet that has a zamak electrical path. With no other changes to the electrical path, the original mechanism runs like a dream using a similar electronic liquid on the bare zamak. Before it would only run for a 1/4 turn of the driver.
It made me a believer.
Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:50 AM, "jjleeds40" <jjleeds@...> wrote: I agree, it is probably the tender trucks. I reworked a Mantua goat that I assembled 30 yrs. ago. Put in a can motor, flywheel NWSL idler gear box & a decoder....Wouldn't run worth a darn. After sitting on the shelf for a couple of years I discovered a conductive grease ( NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL from Sanchem Inc. Disassembled the trucks, polished them, put a SMALL dab of grease on axle ends & all contact points. It ran like a dream & still does after over a year. You can also use this product on the tracks...."A little Dab Will Do Ya"
I got the 2 oz. tub that will last me 3 or 4 lifetimes.
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Nathan Rich <thaddeusthudpucker@...> wrote:
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon
screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail
thing, you should be able to.
Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@...> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was
still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on
a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any
suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Hi John, I considered going to Atalanta this year for the National. ?(I just went to Atlanta last weekend :o) and visited family, and the Southeastern Railway Museum) ? However, my budget maker only allows me one convention per year and I REALLY REALLY want to go to the MER convention in Rockville Md. this fall. ?Howard Zane's model railroad will be on the home layout tour and there will some really good guest clinicians and speakers, including Tony Koester. ?Since I have already seen most of the home layouts in the Atalanta area already and have been to several Nationals, I decided to forgo it. ?However, a friend wants me to go with him for the Train Show, just Friday and Saturday. ?I am considering this, but usually, I spend some pretty good cash at these as well and I need to buy a bunch of Tortoises for my under construction layout. ?If I do go, I will definitely send you an email and we can meet up and have dinner or something? Regards,?Vic Bitleris
Raleigh, NC
To: yardbirdtrains@... From: vytis1952@... Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 18:18:04 -0700 Subject: [yardbirdtrains] Re: Mantua Classic Lindbergh Special 4-4-2
?
| If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on oxidized tender bolsters. ?Every Mantua 4-4-2 I've worked over had this problem. ?For some reason the lot of pot metal used for the tender floors picks up the usual Mantua carbonized black junk very quickly. ?The first one I worked on about drove me nuts till I figured it out. ?When clean, they'll run like a dream, then gradually get worse and final run in stops and starts, just like you're experiencing. ?Could be something else of course, but that's what I'd check first. ?Try polishing them and the tender truck bolsters up. ?Mantua put a copper washer on some of them to try to help with this problem, but it doesn't do much good. ?A tiny amount of contact cleaner will keep them working properly for a longer period of time, but eventually you'll be back to cleaning the same area. ? ??The real long term
fix as already has been mentioned is to equip the tender trucks with wipers and hard wire them to the tender frame. ?I think the easiest way to do this would be to solder spring bronze wire to the tender trucks. ?Have done that this year on a whole bunch of General trucks with very good results.. If you need some spring wire, contact me off list...it doesn't take much ??I'd also check to make sure all the wheels of all your tender trucks are in contact with the rail. ?This loco has some issues with that, esp. depending on what Mantua truck was used. ?The one that should be there and seems to work best is the "Reading" style truck, but various trucks were substituted depending on what was on hand during assembly, and who did what after the engine was sold. ??All the 4-4-2 s I've worked on had a nice can motor and gear box. ?Don't know if they were all that way, but those ran very nicely once contact problems were resolved,
and should convert to DCC easily. ?Hardest part of the DCC conversion will be wiring up those nifty operating marker lampas. ?Haven't done one yet, but think you'll need to add a resistor to drop track voltage down on them. ??Finally, thanks for the kind words, Vic! ?Here I thought I was sneaking quietly onto Ebay...you just can't get nothing past some people (lol). ??My latest project has been working over a group of 6 Rivarossi 4-4-0' s for a gentleman, as well as 3 J. W Bokers. ?He's decided that he really likes not having to hassle with dogbones, so they are all getting two piece brass tubing drive shafts and can motors. ?Think at this point I could write a small book on pick problems on these engines, and how to solve them...basicaly the problems, no matter what they act like come down to poor driver pickup. ?I'm find both the wipers and the little spring plungers just don't act like they are supposed to, and am just
modifying them as a matter of course...the improvement in performance is simply amazing. Continuing on my present HO layout, but have just bough a lot of really old O gauge Truscale tack from the New Orleans area. ?This stuff came out of a club down there and is old enough that there is a high probability that Frank Ellision among others ran stuff on it. ?Got in mind a small O scale loop arounf the workshop to test and play with as well as some On30 trackwork, that will also double as ?an HO repair test loop, so I don't have to keep running from the bench to the layout to test stuff.
??Finally got a pair of beautiful Tenoshodo GN articulated locomotives from a friend to clean up and sell. ?They all have rotten foam, but I won't know how bad till I get into them. ?If any of you are looking for one of these, drop me a line...maybe we can work a deal that leaves everybody
happy. ??Apart from that we ain't been blown or washed away yet down here in the Ozarks, but it's been a close thing a time or two. ?Any of you guys going to be at Atlanta next month...maybe I'll run into you. JBB ?? |
|
| Actually, this business of isolating the frame of the motor is a DCC "urban legend" along with the idea of "DCC friendly" turnouts. ?I think it got started because certain popular brands of locomotive, like the old Athearn Blue Box diesels, used a design that grounded the motor brush directly against the frame. ?On those engines it is necessary to prevent contact between the motor and the frame, but actually what you are really doing to make it work is isolating the motor brushes. ? ??On most conventional open frame style motors, isolating the brushes is a simple operation. ?Generally, one brush, the one picking up from the tender or left hand rail is already isolated. The other brush, picking up from the drivers or r.h. rail, may also already be isolated as it is on most of the bowser steamers with the later motor and some of the MDC larger
steam engines. ?Usually a jumper or some other wiring device is used to ground the brush to the motor, and thru the motor to the frame, etc. ?A little study will show how to interrupt this circuit and you're ready to wire for DCC. ??On motors such as the ones used on the Mantua engines, the RH brush is grounded thru the spring that tensions the brush. ?To isolate it, all you have to do is slip a piece of wire insulation over the brush spring where it prevents the brush spring from contacting the brush, and you are good to go. As far as this "DCC friendly" switch business goes, if you study either Mallory or Westcott on how to correctly wire and gap all rail frog turnouts, you won't have any problems. ?It's really fairly easy, the basic rules (which apply the DC wiring as well) are gap behind the frog and provide power from the point end, not the frog end, you'll be ok. ?Some turnouts such as the older Shinohara use a contact
system that causes shorts in DCC, but it's because of the design of the contacts to the point rails, not the frog wiring. JBB
|
|
Yup, I clean forgot about that one!. I
just put a dab of oil on mine an re-do the cleaning polishing of
that joint if/when I take the truck off or the engine start to
clown up on me (act funny). Good call.
What's happ'n'n on Atlanta?
Tom Knowles
NOTE NEW ADDRESS: tomk@...
On 6/5/2013 8:18 PM, john Brazaitis wrote:
?
| If I was a
betting man, I'd put my money on oxidized tender
bolsters. ?Every Mantua 4-4-2 I've worked over had
this problem. ?For some reason the lot of pot
metal used for the tender floors picks up the
usual Mantua carbonized black junk very quickly.
?The first one I worked on about drove me nuts
till I figured it out. ?When clean, they'll run
like a dream, then gradually get worse and final
run in stops and starts, just like you're
experiencing. ?Could be something else of course,
but that's what I'd check first. ?Try polishing
them and the tender truck bolsters up. ?Mantua put
a copper washer on some of them to try to help
with this problem, but it doesn't do much good. ?A
tiny amount of contact cleaner will keep them
working properly for a longer period of time, but
eventually you'll be back to cleaning the same
area. ?
??The real long term fix as already has been
mentioned is to equip the tender trucks with
wipers and hard wire them to the tender frame.
?I think the easiest way to do this would be to
solder spring bronze wire to the tender trucks.
?Have done that this year on a whole bunch of
General trucks with very good results.. If you
need some spring wire, contact me off list...it
doesn't take much
??I'd also check to make sure all the wheels
of all your tender trucks are in contact with
the rail. ?This loco has some issues with that,
esp. depending on what Mantua truck was used.
?The one that should be there and seems to work
best is the "Reading" style truck, but various
trucks were substituted depending on what was on
hand during assembly, and who did what after the
engine was sold.
??All the 4-4-2 s I've worked on had a nice
can motor and gear box. ?Don't know if they were
all that way, but those ran very nicely once
contact problems were resolved, and should
convert to DCC easily. ?Hardest part of the DCC
conversion will be wiring up those nifty
operating marker lampas. ?Haven't done one yet,
but think you'll need to add a resistor to drop
track voltage down on them.
??Finally, thanks for the kind words, Vic!
?Here I thought I was sneaking quietly onto
Ebay...you just can't get nothing past some
people (lol).
??My latest project has been working over a
group of 6 Rivarossi 4-4-0' s for a gentleman,
as well as 3 J. W Bokers. ?He's decided that he
really likes not having to hassle with dogbones,
so they are all getting two piece brass tubing
drive shafts and can motors. ?Think at this
point I could write a small book on pick
problems on these engines, and how to solve
them...basicaly the problems, no matter what
they act like come down to poor driver pickup.
?I'm find both the wipers and the little spring
plungers just don't act like they are supposed
to, and am just modifying them as a matter of
course...the improvement in performance is
simply amazing.
Continuing on my present HO layout, but have
just bough a lot of really old O gauge Truscale
tack from the New Orleans area. ?This stuff came
out of a club down there and is old enough that
there is a high probability that Frank Ellision
among others ran stuff on it. ?Got in mind a
small O scale loop arounf the workshop to test
and play with as well as some On30 trackwork,
that will also double as ?an HO repair test
loop, so I don't have to keep running from the
bench to the layout to test stuff.
??Finally got a pair of beautiful Tenoshodo
GN articulated locomotives from a friend to
clean up and sell. ?They all have rotten foam,
but I won't know how bad till I get into them.
?If any of you are looking for one of these,
drop me a line...maybe we can work a deal that
leaves everybody happy.
??Apart from that we ain't been blown or
washed away yet down here in the Ozarks, but
it's been a close thing a time or two. ?Any of
you guys going to be at Atlanta next
month...maybe I'll run into you.
JBB
??
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Urban legend??
Don't tell my 0-6-0 that,,,,It ate the 1st decoder when I first insulated the brushes from the motor.
I slid some tape under it and anchored it with a nylon screw, and the 2nd decoder lived! Motor wobbles a little with the nylon screw,,,,but until I can get one of Dan's cans in it,,,it'll do. The moral of the story?
Not all open frame motors can be trusted,,especially 40 year old ones!! Check the motor frame to ground before you waste a decoder (like I did!!)
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., john Brazaitis <vytis1952@...> wrote:
Actually, this business of isolating the frame of the motor is a DCC "urban legend" along with the idea of "DCC friendly" turnouts. ?I think it got started because certain popular brands of locomotive, like the old Athearn Blue Box diesels, used a design that grounded the motor brush directly against the frame. ?On those engines it is necessary to prevent contact between the motor and the frame, but actually what you are really doing to make it work is isolating the motor brushes. ???On most conventional open frame style motors, isolating the brushes is a simple operation. ?Generally, one brush, the one picking up from the tender or left hand rail is already isolated.The other brush, picking up from the drivers or r.h. rail, may also already be isolated as it is on most of the bowser steamers with the later motor and some of the MDC larger steam engines. ?Usually a jumper or some other wiring device is used to ground the brush to the motor, and
thru the motor to the frame, etc. ?A little study will show how to interrupt this circuit and you're ready to wire for DCC.??On motors such as the ones used on the Mantua engines, the RH brush is grounded thru the spring that tensions the brush. ?To isolate it, all you have to do is slip a piece of wire insulation over the brush spring where it prevents the brush spring from contacting the brush, and you are good to go.As far as this "DCC friendly" switch business goes, if you study either Mallory or Westcott on how to correctly wire and gap all rail frog turnouts, you won't have any problems. ?It's really fairly easy, the basic rules (which apply the DC wiring as well) are gap behind the frog and provide power from the point end, not the frog end, you'll be ok. ?Some turnouts such as the older Shinohara use a contact system that causes shorts in DCC, but it's because of the design of the contacts to the point rails, not the frog wiring.JBB
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Mike,
What is the name of the liquid form that you use? I would like to get some. Thanks.
Richard in Vermont
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
YES !!!
While I've been using more of a liquid form of the stuff, I've been doing the same since the early '70's
Man, does the method work well!
What proved it to me was a very long shelved 0-4-2t Athearn steamer bought at a swap meet that has a zamak electrical path. With no other changes to the electrical path, the original mechanism runs like a dream using a similar electronic liquid on the bare zamak. Before it would only run for a 1/4 turn of the driver.
It made me a believer.
Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA
On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:50 AM, "jjleeds40" <jjleeds@...> wrote:
I agree, it is probably the tender trucks. I reworked a Mantua goat that I assembled 30 yrs. ago. Put in a can motor, flywheel NWSL idler gear box & a decoder....Wouldn't run worth a darn. After sitting on the shelf for a couple of years I discovered a conductive grease ( NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL from Sanchem Inc. Disassembled the trucks, polished them, put a SMALL dab of grease on axle ends & all contact points. It ran like a dream & still does after over a year. You can also use this product on the tracks...."A little Dab Will Do Ya"
I got the 2 oz. tub that will last me 3 or 4 lifetimes.
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Nathan Rich <thaddeusthudpucker@> wrote:
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon
screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail
thing, you should be able to.
Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was
still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on
a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any
suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
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The earliest versions of the RR 4-4-0's had steel frames and pickup wipers just like the Bowker, but they later changed to a plastic frame with those sprung plungers. To be sure the current doesn't go through the plunger springs, my solution was to solder the ends of a length of stripped NWSL superflex wire to the back of each plunger. There's enough of a pocket behind them to dress the wire so it won't interfere with the plunger movement, which is critical because the springs in them are very light.
I soldered a lug I made from and spare bronze wiper to the center of the length of wire, which is then trapped between the frame and the axle cover by the cover screw. It makes for a solid electrical path from the plunger pins to the bottom cover and drawbar.
Nelson
"My latest project has been working over a group of 6 Rivarossi 4-4-0' s for a gentleman, as well as 3 J. W Bokers. He's decided that he really likes not having to hassle with dogbones, so they are all getting two piece brass tubing drive shafts and can motors. Think at this point I could write a small book on pick problems on these engines, and how to solve them...basicaly the problems, no matter what they act like come down to poor driver pickup. I'm find both the wipers and the little spring plungers just don't act like they are supposed to, and am just modifying them as a matter of course...the improvement in performance is simply amazing."
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Presently I use any tuner cleaner or CRC Electronic cleaner/conditioner. Get a Q-tip moist with it and use that as the applicator.
Local sources are Marine supply stores, the better hardware stores, and Auto parts stores.
Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA
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Show quoted text
On Jun 7, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Richard <rh@...> wrote: Mike,
What is the name of the liquid form that you use? I would like to get some. Thanks.
Richard in Vermont
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote:
YES !!!
While I've been using more of a liquid form of the stuff, I've been doing the same since the early '70's
Man, does the method work well!
What proved it to me was a very long shelved 0-4-2t Athearn steamer bought at a swap meet that has a zamak electrical path. With no other changes to the electrical path, the original mechanism runs like a dream using a similar electronic liquid on the bare zamak. Before it would only run for a 1/4 turn of the driver.
It made me a believer.
Best to ya...
Mike Bauers
Milwaukee, Wi, USA
On Jun 6, 2013, at 5:50 AM, "jjleeds40" <jjleeds@...> wrote:
I agree, it is probably the tender trucks. I reworked a Mantua goat that I assembled 30 yrs. ago. Put in a can motor, flywheel NWSL idler gear box & a decoder....Wouldn't run worth a darn. After sitting on the shelf for a couple of years I discovered a conductive grease ( NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL from Sanchem Inc. Disassembled the trucks, polished them, put a SMALL dab of grease on axle ends & all contact points. It ran like a dream & still does after over a year. You can also use this product on the tracks...."A little Dab Will Do Ya"
I got the 2 oz. tub that will last me 3 or 4 lifetimes.
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Nathan Rich <thaddeusthudpucker@> wrote:
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon
screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail
thing, you should be able to.
Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was
still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on
a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any
suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
|
Good tip ? Anyone else ? Henry
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., "jjleeds40" <jjleeds@...> wrote:
I agree, it is probably the tender trucks. I reworked a Mantua goat that I assembled 30 yrs. ago. Put in a can motor, flywheel NWSL idler gear box & a decoder....Wouldn't run worth a darn. After sitting on the shelf for a couple of years I discovered a conductive grease ( NO-OX-ID A SPECIAL from Sanchem Inc. Disassembled the trucks, polished them, put a SMALL dab of grease on axle ends & all contact points. It ran like a dream & still does after over a year. You can also use this product on the tracks...."A little Dab Will Do Ya"
I got the 2 oz. tub that will last me 3 or 4 lifetimes.
--- In yardbirdtrains@..., Nathan Rich <thaddeusthudpucker@> wrote:
As long as you can completely isolate the motor from the frame (use a nylon
screw and some electrical tape) and can sort out the left rail/right rail
thing, you should be able to.
Nathan Rich
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:26 PM, cwvpost1 <pgkdave@> wrote:
I just acquired a Limited Edition Mantua Classic 4-4-2 Atlantic that was
still New In the Box. It is over 20 Years Old. When I tried to Run it on
a test track, it ran erratic starting and stopping and shorting out.
Does anyone have any ideas as to what would be causing the problem and any
suggestion on how to fix it?
Also is there anyway to upgrade this engine to DCC?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
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I have the one E6 #460 that came in the plastic display case that is labled for it. I seen them just in Mantua boxes also. There is another one that made a fast run with photos of the Hindenberg desister. It may be the E6 7002. It has the standard plastic details added with a old looking oil type headlight that was converted to electric lights and a generator can be seen close to the cab atop the Belpair fire box. It is still factory sealed. it is the first of the three photos.
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