Re: A strange journey worth sharing

#20811

Have you looked into a Gotek floppy emulator? ?
I fitted one into an S900, and then into my Yamahah RM1X and it worked perfectly in each instance,
It then behaves exactly like a floppy disk (well 100+ floppy disks to be precise)
(looks like someone has already done it :?https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17483

A strange journey worth sharing

#20810

开云体育

Good evening everyone,

?

This group has helped me before, so I always keep it in mind when trouble strikes my venerable Yamaha DX7II-FD with Grey Matter E! board update. I’ve been on a strange journey with that instrument of late, and I thought it worth sharing in case others can benefit from what I’ve learned.

?

I won’t bore you with a lot of unnecessarily details. I’ll say only that I’ve been working to get all my DX data dumped to my computer as SysEx files because I positively dread the day the floppy on the DX finally fails. I’ve also been recording all my SE! songs (the E! sequencer application) into Cubase, so I have the MIDI to work with as needed without relying on the DX.

?

The keyboard worked great in heavy use for weeks. Then a few days ago it started ignoring any SysEx dump I sent it. It would still play any MIDI data sent to it by Cubase, and it would still transmit its own internal data for SysEx dumps just fine. I could even keep sending banks of patches to Native Instrument’s FM-8 application without any problems. But the DX itself just didn’t respond at all to any SysEx data. ?It didn’t even give me any of the usual error messages about the receive buffer being full. SysEx just stopped working.

?

I did a bunch of searching on Google and tried more things that I care to list. But suffice it to say reloading everything via an ERAM file from disk didn’t fix my problem, nor did loading all the banks from the original DX ROM cartridge, nor did re-initializing every patch in every bank, etc. The only thing that worked was pulling the backup battery and letting the instrument go completely blank, and even then I ran into an issue that scared the heck out of me. For anyone facing such a situation, here’s the procedure:

?

I removed the bottom panel from the unit and pulled the backup battery in the back.
I let the unit sit for 15 minutes so that everything would wipe completely.
I reinstalled the backup battery and put the unit back together.
When I first turned it on, I got an error about how the memory was corrupt, which I was happy to see.
I next loaded the contents of an ERAM file from one of my disks.
That fixed all the crazy patch names, but I couldn't hear any output either through the back or phones.
The solution to that was to select one of the recently loaded performance patches.
I hit the off switch, turned it back on, and everything finally worked--including receiving SysEx data!

?

I was pretty scared at step (6) that I’d somehow messed up the output section of the circuitry or something, but I think I can guess what happened. When I reloaded the ERAM, I had only selected various patches in single mode. As such, I don’t think the edit buffer for all the performance data had been set properly yet. Once I selected a performance patch, however, the volume came back just as expected both through the headphones and the normal output jacks.

?

So there you have it. I’ve read so many posts in the last few days about how people buy a used DX and can’t get it to accept SysEx or can’t get any sound and simply assume it’s broken garbage. I’m sharing this recent experience because it demonstrates what a hardy beast the DX truly is. All I had to do was wipe its memory and reload everything. Now it’s working again like a champ, almost 35 years strong!

?

John Williston

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20809

开云体育

On Nov 3, 2021, at 3:19 PM, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote:

Thanks for confirming the "sounds off" and "falls into place" perceptions that I had. If that can be heard by others, then my main goal has been accomplished.

Interesting to hear about "meticulous adjustment" being expected and practiced in the studio. My main wonder has been if this is well known (pitch adjustments for synths) and commonly done or not. I'm thinking that perhaps the situation is as follows: nothing in particular is done beforehand, in terms of adding "Railsback" adjustments to synths (or comparable set of adjustments), since even these are at best only good first guesses and the changing context may invalidate those choices. So instead, in the mix, the precaution is made that the synths be automated (MIDI or OSC), and audible pitch problems are handled via adjustments as needed.

Quite. Good audio production is also a result of hours of practice. Unbeknown to many, good producers are also highly-trained and/or talented musicians... Brian Eno, Steven Wilson to name a couple. ?

I'm just someone who works with a home studio, so I don't know what is happening in the pro studios. When I was asking around, for example, at various retailers that sell audio gear, no one mentioned any specific tools used specifically for the purpose of dealing with "stretch" tuning issues.

Therefore, this kind of adjustment relies on skilled operators with excellent ears and their attention to detail, rather than software?

Don’t get me wrong, Visionaries like you could make software to facilitate matters. ?

Best wishes,

Eb

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20808

Thanks for confirming the "sounds off" and "falls into place" perceptions that I had. If that can be heard by others, then my main goal has been accomplished.

Interesting to hear about "meticulous adjustment" being expected and practiced in the studio. My main wonder has been if this is well known (pitch adjustments for synths) and commonly done or not. I'm thinking that perhaps the situation is as follows: nothing in particular is done beforehand, in terms of adding "Railsback" adjustments to synths (or comparable set of adjustments), since even these are at best only good first guesses and the changing context may invalidate those choices. So instead, in the mix, the precaution is made that the synths be automated (MIDI or OSC), and audible pitch problems are handled via adjustments as needed.

I'm just someone who works with a home studio, so I don't know what is happening in the pro studios. When I was asking around, for example, at various retailers that sell audio gear, no one mentioned any specific tools used specifically for the purpose of dealing with "stretch" tuning issues.

Therefore, this kind of adjustment relies on skilled operators with excellent ears and their attention to detail, rather than software?

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Eb Myatt <eb.myatt@...>
To: philfrei@...
Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, Nov 3, 2021 6:21 am
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7

On Nov 2, 2021, at 5:50 PM, philfrei@... wrote:

I'm not going to be able to do this right away, as the program isn't sufficiently automated for external triggers yet, and my MIDI DAW is on an older XP machine that is in storage.

What sort of analysis are you hoping to perform? Maybe there is a way I can support that more easily?

Phil,

Since the differences can be very subtle, it is best to eliminate any?unnecessary sources of variation to make an accurate aural?comparison.

This weekend I could redo the recording and double check that each step of the process is identical. I may have overlooked something. The timing of the start of each section will be me clicking "Go" while watching a timer. I'll try to use my "musician's" accuracy instead of treating the entrance timings casually.

A metronome perhaps?

As I've been listening more, I am noticing the following. I wonder if others hear the same thing?

1) When the high string drone first comes in, it sounds like it could be a little flat in both clips, but more so in the Equal Temperament clip.

2) When the arpeggio plays A3 or higher, the high drone sounds in tune to me, on the Railsback clip, though possibly it sounds a bit sharp when the arpeggio hits A5.

3) When the arpeggio plays A4 or higher on the Equal Temperament clip, the high drone sounds in tune to me.

Yes, the high string drone does sound slightly?“off” in the beginning and "falls into place" from A4 onwards. This is one reason I like to use real-time patch edits during mixing and live playing though other sources of variability also need to be considered (below).

I'm reminded of optical illusions where the color of a region varies based on the surrounding colors. It seems entirely likely that there exist aural parallels, where concurrent tones can affect perception. But the pitch perception effects here are a great deal more subtle than the optical illusions I've seen.

The implication is kind of stunning to me. It suggests that the pitch of a synth may need to adjust a few cents this way or that, depending on the context, to remain sounding "perfectly in tune". This would be rather difficult to encode! But at the same time, musicians probably are already doing a bit of this (some more successfully than others) automatically in response to what others around them are playing.

Aurally, other sources of variability like (multi-band) compression, EQ and FX chains also need meticulous adjustment in an actual mixing or live situation.

Regards,

E?

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20807

开云体育

On Nov 2, 2021, at 5:50 PM, philfrei@... wrote:

I'm not going to be able to do this right away, as the program isn't sufficiently automated for external triggers yet, and my MIDI DAW is on an older XP machine that is in storage.

What sort of analysis are you hoping to perform? Maybe there is a way I can support that more easily?

Phil,

Since the differences can be very subtle, it is best to eliminate any?unnecessary sources of variation to make an accurate aural?comparison.

This weekend I could redo the recording and double check that each step of the process is identical. I may have overlooked something. The timing of the start of each section will be me clicking "Go" while watching a timer. I'll try to use my "musician's" accuracy instead of treating the entrance timings casually.

A metronome perhaps?

As I've been listening more, I am noticing the following. I wonder if others hear the same thing?

1) When the high string drone first comes in, it sounds like it could be a little flat in both clips, but more so in the Equal Temperament clip.

2) When the arpeggio plays A3 or higher, the high drone sounds in tune to me, on the Railsback clip, though possibly it sounds a bit sharp when the arpeggio hits A5.

3) When the arpeggio plays A4 or higher on the Equal Temperament clip, the high drone sounds in tune to me.

Yes, the high string drone does sound slightly?“off” in the beginning and "falls into place" from A4 onwards. This is one reason I like to use real-time patch edits during mixing and live playing though other sources of variability also need to be considered (below).

I'm reminded of optical illusions where the color of a region varies based on the surrounding colors. It seems entirely likely that there exist aural parallels, where concurrent tones can affect perception. But the pitch perception effects here are a great deal more subtle than the optical illusions I've seen.

The implication is kind of stunning to me. It suggests that the pitch of a synth may need to adjust a few cents this way or that, depending on the context, to remain sounding "perfectly in tune". This would be rather difficult to encode! But at the same time, musicians probably are already doing a bit of this (some more successfully than others) automatically in response to what others around them are playing.

Aurally, other sources of variability like (multi-band) compression, EQ and FX chains also need meticulous adjustment in an actual mixing or live situation.

Regards,

E?

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20806

I'm not going to be able to do this right away, as the program isn't sufficiently automated for external triggers yet, and my MIDI DAW is on an older XP machine that is in storage.

What sort of analysis are you hoping to perform? Maybe there is a way I can support that more easily?

This weekend I could redo the recording and double check that each step of the process is identical. I may have overlooked something. The timing of the start of each section will be me clicking "Go" while watching a timer. I'll try to use my "musician's" accuracy instead of treating the entrance timings casually.

As I've been listening more, I am noticing the following. I wonder if others hear the same thing?

1) When the high string drone first comes in, it sounds like it could be a little flat in both clips, but more so in the Equal Temperament clip.

2) When the arpeggio plays A3 or higher, the high drone sounds in tune to me, on the Railsback clip, though possibly it sounds a bit sharp when the arpeggio hits A5.

3) When the arpeggio plays A4 or higher on the Equal Temperament clip, the high drone sounds in tune to me.

I'm reminded of optical illusions where the color of a region varies based on the surrounding colors. It seems entirely likely that there exist aural parallels, where concurrent tones can affect perception. But the pitch perception effects here are a great deal more subtle than the optical illusions I've seen.

The implication is kind of stunning to me. It suggests that the pitch of a synth may need to adjust a few cents this way or that, depending on the context, to remain sounding "perfectly in tune". This would be rather difficult to encode! But at the same time, musicians probably are already doing a bit of this (some more successfully than others) automatically in response to what others around them are playing.

Show quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Eb Myatt <eb.myatt@...>
To: [email protected]; philfrei@...
Sent: Tue, Nov 2, 2021 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7

Hello Phil,

Thanks for the report. The two sound files are slightly different in terms of amplitude and headroom. The?railsback_stringsynthdrone is slightly louder than the equal temperament one. This is evident when looking at the waveforms. Could you re-create these files by rendering them using the same MIDI file for a better comparison.?

Thanks in advance,

E? ?

On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:58 AM, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote:

I've been wanting to hear for myself if the "Railsback" adjustments make a difference. I finally took some time to make two sound files, one which uses pure equal temperament and the other which incorporates "railsback" adjustments, using the chart linked earlier that came from a Yamaha digital piano manual.

Folloing are the two links. The timbre used is a pretty common variant of a DX7 string synth patch. It's being played by a Java-based FM synth that I wrote.

6 seconds of a low drone: A1 (midi 33, 55 Hz)

6 second drone of a high drone added, A6 (midi 93, 1760 Hz)

then an arpeggio that spans A2 to A5 comes in.

With the "railsback" version, the pitch adjustments range from -8 cents for the low A1 to +9 cents for the high A6.

The difference between the two tracks is pretty subtle! I can hear it most readily when running both files at the same time, but flipping (solo/mute) back and forth between them quickly. I find it's easiest to distinguish the pitch difference between the high drones. It does seem to me that the "railsback" version sits a little easier, somehow. But I wonder if this high string synth would sound still better if it were yet a few cents sharper.

There's some detuning built into the patch, but the Op stack which predominates is a pure 1 : 1 : 4 (where 1 is the carrier and 1 and 4 are modulators stacked in series). The other stack is a "feedback" loop with the pitch set via a 0.998 factor (i.e., for 440 Hz, the detuned stack is 439.12 Hz, and in that region, 0.247 Hz is 1 cent). I think its overtones phase with the main stack overtones more than they directly affect the perceived pitch. Maybe this stack does have an impact on the sense of the octaves. But I'm not at all clear how, especially since the exact same patch is being used for all the notes being played.

I think the internal phasing of the timbre that results would tend to make clashes between the overtones and fundamentals of concurrent notes less prominent, as there is a baseline of considerable timbral activity regardless of the exact pitches being played.

So, is it worth the trouble to correct for the octave stretch? IDK. I think it depends on the context. The producer (and the musicians involved) need to use their best judgment. Sometimes if a note is slightly "off" or "pitchy" it actually works better. A subliminally sharp note might give it a bit of edge or assertiveness, a subliminally flat note might add a bit of despondency or passivity that fits the moment.

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20805

开云体育

Hello Phil,

Thanks for the report. The two sound files are slightly different in terms of amplitude and headroom. The?railsback_stringsynthdrone is slightly louder than the equal temperament one. This is evident when looking at the waveforms. Could you re-create these files by rendering them using the same MIDI file for a better comparison.?

Thanks in advance,

E? ?

Show quoted text

On Nov 1, 2021, at 10:58 AM, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote:

I've been wanting to hear for myself if the "Railsback" adjustments make a difference. I finally took some time to make two sound files, one which uses pure equal temperament and the other which incorporates "railsback" adjustments, using the chart linked earlier that came from a Yamaha digital piano manual.

Folloing are the two links. The timbre used is a pretty common variant of a DX7 string synth patch. It's being played by a Java-based FM synth that I wrote.

6 seconds of a low drone: A1 (midi 33, 55 Hz)

6 second drone of a high drone added, A6 (midi 93, 1760 Hz)

then an arpeggio that spans A2 to A5 comes in.

With the "railsback" version, the pitch adjustments range from -8 cents for the low A1 to +9 cents for the high A6.

The difference between the two tracks is pretty subtle! I can hear it most readily when running both files at the same time, but flipping (solo/mute) back and forth between them quickly. I find it's easiest to distinguish the pitch difference between the high drones. It does seem to me that the "railsback" version sits a little easier, somehow. But I wonder if this high string synth would sound still better if it were yet a few cents sharper.

There's some detuning built into the patch, but the Op stack which predominates is a pure 1 : 1 : 4 (where 1 is the carrier and 1 and 4 are modulators stacked in series). The other stack is a "feedback" loop with the pitch set via a 0.998 factor (i.e., for 440 Hz, the detuned stack is 439.12 Hz, and in that region, 0.247 Hz is 1 cent). I think its overtones phase with the main stack overtones more than they directly affect the perceived pitch. Maybe this stack does have an impact on the sense of the octaves. But I'm not at all clear how, especially since the exact same patch is being used for all the notes being played.

I think the internal phasing of the timbre that results would tend to make clashes between the overtones and fundamentals of concurrent notes less prominent, as there is a baseline of considerable timbral activity regardless of the exact pitches being played.

So, is it worth the trouble to correct for the octave stretch? IDK. I think it depends on the context. The producer (and the musicians involved) need to use their best judgment. Sometimes if a note is slightly "off" or "pitchy" it actually works better. A subliminally sharp note might give it a bit of edge or assertiveness, a subliminally flat note might add a bit of despondency or passivity that fits the moment.

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20804

I've been wanting to hear for myself if the "Railsback" adjustments make a difference. I finally took some time to make two sound files, one which uses pure equal temperament and the other which incorporates "railsback" adjustments, using the chart linked earlier that came from a Yamaha digital piano manual.

Folloing are the two links. The timbre used is a pretty common variant of a DX7 string synth patch. It's being played by a Java-based FM synth that I wrote.

6 seconds of a low drone: A1 (midi 33, 55 Hz)

6 second drone of a high drone added, A6 (midi 93, 1760 Hz)

then an arpeggio that spans A2 to A5 comes in.

With the "railsback" version, the pitch adjustments range from -8 cents for the low A1 to +9 cents for the high A6.

The difference between the two tracks is pretty subtle! I can hear it most readily when running both files at the same time, but flipping (solo/mute) back and forth between them quickly. I find it's easiest to distinguish the pitch difference between the high drones. It does seem to me that the "railsback" version sits a little easier, somehow. But I wonder if this high string synth would sound still better if it were yet a few cents sharper.

There's some detuning built into the patch, but the Op stack which predominates is a pure 1 : 1 : 4 (where 1 is the carrier and 1 and 4 are modulators stacked in series). The other stack is a "feedback" loop with the pitch set via a 0.998 factor (i.e., for 440 Hz, the detuned stack is 439.12 Hz, and in that region, 0.247 Hz is 1 cent). I think its overtones phase with the main stack overtones more than they directly affect the perceived pitch. Maybe this stack does have an impact on the sense of the octaves. But I'm not at all clear how, especially since the exact same patch is being used for all the notes being played.

I think the internal phasing of the timbre that results would tend to make clashes between the overtones and fundamentals of concurrent notes less prominent, as there is a baseline of considerable timbral activity regardless of the exact pitches being played.

So, is it worth the trouble to correct for the octave stretch? IDK. I think it depends on the context. The producer (and the musicians involved) need to use their best judgment. Sometimes if a note is slightly "off" or "pitchy" it actually works better. A subliminally sharp note might give it a bit of edge or assertiveness, a subliminally flat note might add a bit of despondency or passivity that fits the moment.

Re: V50 SSU (sound source) patches?

#20803

I came here after watching 12-op videos on Youtube; I am V50 user since 1991, and still searching for those floppies. I found some corrupted files on the net, labelled "packof", when they load on the V50 editor, lots of junk characters and bla bla.?
I will appreciate a link to good rips of those SSU floppies, some sounds on them are great.
Thanks!

Re: V50 SSU (sound source) patches?

#20802

I think Bob from greytsounds sells them on eBay now as sysex files. Check him out on eBay.

Show quoted text

On Sun, Sep 19, 2021, 4:53 PM José Juan <josejuangallego@...> wrote:

I came here after watching 12-op videos on Youtube; I am V50 user since 1991, and still searching for those floppies. I found some corrupted files on the net, labelled "packof", when they load on the V50 editor, lots of junk characters and bla bla.?
I will appreciate a link to good rips of those SSU floppies, some sounds on them are great.
Thanks!

--

Re: DX7 key grease?

#20801

Yes, white lithium grease is good. I use it when refurbishing the key beds on JD-800s. I replace the old dried out grease on the key springs with fresh white lithium grease after cleaning.

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20800

In short, what Thor said...

The trick of using separate (sharp) tuned operators to make the higher order harmonics of the bass (wound string) notes works well, then using either zone detuning (Montage) or the Microtuning abitlity of DX7II/TX802 to 'stretch' the upper ranges can give some nice results. ?But that's kind of a special case and not a lot is needed.

In my experience there's typically no need for, or improvement gained by 'stretch tuning' FM sounds.

Manny

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20799

开云体育

Actually, no not really.

Painstaking care is made in the design and voicing of the acoustic piano to strike the string at the 9^th Harmonic where there is the *least* amount of generated harmonics.

If they wanted a rich spectrum of harmonics, the hammers would be very near the midpoint.

Much of what we call ‘harmonics’ is the resonance of the surrounding chamber, wood, iron, etc.

?

L.

?

No windings but they have still a rich spectrum with harmonics.

?

Daniel Forro

?

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20798

I guess it's similar to the reason for Just Intonation.? Equal temperament is slightly discordant because of the interval used between notes.? Since the interval between keys or semitones (half steps) is the twelfth root of two, the only interval made up of multiples of those that gives a whole number, or a simple ratio of whole numbers, is the octave.? So, for example a "perfect" fifth is not perfect in Equal Temperament, because it's not a factor of 3/2, it's an approximation made up by multiplying seven of the twelfth root of two intervals together:

(1.0594630943592952645618252949463 ^12 = 2, so that's the ratio between adjacent keys, in Equal Temperament)

1.0594630943592952645618252949463 ^7 = 1.4983070768766814987992807320298

- which is just short of 3/2.

The reason that matters is that harmonics of the fundamental frequency beat with each other.? In a just tuned perfect fifth, some of them can be at the exact same frequency (given perfect tuning), so they don't beat - or they can be tuned so close that the beat frequency is out of our hearing range, even if the tuning isn't quite perfect.

If the lowest note of the interval (e.g. C) is f, then the higher note (e.g. G) in a Just perfect fith is 3.f/2. The harmonics of the lower note are:

f, 2f, 3f, 4f, 5f, 6f.... (we only need to care about ones we can actually hear, so the series isn't infinite)

The harmonics of the higher one are:

3f/2, 3f, 9f/2, 6f...

So, we have 3f and 6f in both, which can effectively cancel out - meaning that they don't beat.? In Equal Temperament, that doesn't happen, so some of the harmonics beat, audibly.

So, one approach would be to tune fifths on the piano to sound better together - which will mean the higher note going slightly above equal temperament (frequencies in a ratio of 1.5 instead of 1.498).? That accumulates as you go further up the keyboard, so that would be a type of stretch tuning.? I guess you could interpolate between the other notes, or try to get more intervals to sound better, by ear - adjust to get fourths sounding better, making a compromise with the way perfect fifths sound, and so on.

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20797

开云体育

An editor could look something like this (rough layout)

One feature could be to able to choose the target device.

Like different Yamaha Synths or MicroWave I/2?

Benjamin

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20796

OK, I'll take a shot at explaining why we might use the Railsback curve
(or not).

Inharmonicity is a spread in the harmonics above the fundamental pitch.?
The harmonics generated by a physical string become sharper and sharper
when compared to the theoretical pitch you would actually prefer.? Low
notes on the piano have the highest inharmonicity, and as you go up the
keyboard the spread lessens. The harmonics become more in tune the
higher you go.? I could show you a graph of a patch where the inharmonic
spread is easily visible off the Yamaha VP1, but these text messages
don't include jpeg's.? The inharmonicity in the piano is not actually
visible on a spectrum plot, you have to calculate the theoretical pitch
of the harmonic, then compare it to a spectrum analyzer value in order
to see it.? I've done that, I have a spreadsheet showing a couple of
pitches across the ranges of a LOT of instruments, not just the piano,
compared to the theoretical values.

If you to play low notes on the piano and high notes at the same time,
the high notes would be flat when compared to the actual harmonics (or
inharmonics) generated by the lower, thicker strings.? For the high
notes to sound more in tune with the bass notes, you have to tune the
upper ranges on the piano sharper and sharper as you go up the
keyboard.? If you don't, you get a more audible beat pattern.? Piano
tuners tune the mid range to match the mathematical pitch for the note,
but tune the higher notes sharper, and the bass notes flatter.? That way
you can play the low end of the keyboard at the same time as the high
end and it sounds more in tune.

On an electronic reproduction of a piano, the need for Railsback tuning
depends upon how the keyboard generates it's sound.? If it's like a
Yamaha Motif or Montage, the synth uses a different recording of a piano
for every 4 to 6 notes up the keyboard. Because it's based on actual
recordings, then pitch adjusted, it doesn't need to be bent further off
the pitch.? The piano used to create the recordings was already tuned
properly using the Railsback technique, so the recordings are already
pitch adjusted.? If the electronic piano uses just one sample recording
of a note, then pitch-adjusts it for all of the other notes, it will
need some tuning to make it sound in tune over the entire width of the
keyboard.? To get the low notes to match the high notes when you play
both at the same time.

Now back to the DX7.? The DX7 does NOT replicate the inharmonicity of a
piano correctly.? All FM modulation creates linearly, evenly spaced
harmonics, not fractally spaced inharmonic harmonics.? The only way to
create inharmonicity is to create groups of harmonics using modulated FM
operator pairs, then shift the upper sets slightly sharp on purpose.? If
you do that, you can create a convincing piano patch that sounds closer
to a real piano.? Then, you could do the Railsback tuning to get the low
notes working better in tune with the high notes.

I actually have a fairly decent FM piano patch on the FS1R, and another
on the Montage.? They aren't Railsback tuned, but I suppose they could
be.? I've spent way too much time attempting to create a realistic piano
patch using FMX which is why I have a bit more information to work from
than most people.

Does that help?? Or did I lose you by not using pictures?

Best Regards,? Thor

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20795

开云体育

On Aug 21, 2021, at 11:17, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:

While this is totally off-topic, it really is, there are questions in my mind about this supposition.? I’m not saying it’s wrong, just having some logical questions coming up about this presumed phenomenon that I can’t square in my tiny brain.
1.???????Most of the strings on a piano have no windings.? So how can tracking on windings be part of the blame where no windings exist?

No windings but they have still a rich spectrum with harmonics.

2.???????If the ‘windings do not track’ then where are they going?? They must be going somewhere and therefore relative motion between core and windings would exist.?

Let me guess - tension of the string and resonances are some factors to count with when tuning. And - psychoacoustics...

?
3.???????If there is relative motion, won’t this produce collisions and extraneous noise? Or at the least, rubbing and scraping?

I don’t know, but for sure there’s a lot of inharmonicity.

4.???????In the many strings without windings – the higher notes – stretch tuning is certainly required.? How can this be??

I suppose again - psychoacoustics...

5.???????In Equal Temperament, there are no ‘fundamentals’ across the keyboard as every note is the same. ?How can there be a “reference” string?

Maybe he meant a reference key, which doesn’t need retuning. But I think it’s not only one key, maybe two middle octaves don’t need retuning.

Concerning fundamentals, if it means basic pitch of the string, the first harmonics, of course each string has its own, plus whole spectrum.

We agree that Stretch Tuning is needed – I’m just trying to come up with a reason that withstands scrutiny.
Of course, my reason of “it’s just our ears vs. Equal Temperament” is hardly conclusive, either.
There is a range (usually straddling a point near Middle C, true) called “the temper” of notes that are tuned to specific interval beats, but not the octaves.? The octave between Middle C and the C-above (C5, 523.25Hz) ?is almost always tuned without beat.? A few others usually down to G3, likewise.? Then Octave tuning with applied stretch in both directions of all the notes.
Of course, this is old-school.? Modern strobes allow this to be done visually.? Recently, I’ve seen junior tuners using their phone apps with no stretch at all and wonder why the piano just doesn’t sound right.? Seems to be a dying craft.??

顿别蹿颈苍颈迟别濒测…

Daniel Forro

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20794

开云体育

On Aug 21, 2021, at 9:21, Bruce Wahler via <bw@...> wrote:

> Other harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their solution.

I think this might be the crux of the situation.? Equal Temperament is very close to an ideal choice, but tuners noticed that following the rules of tuning exactly didn't end up with the best end results, at least, to the ear.

But the string issue is real:? the windings do not track the center core perfectly, and the issue grows over the distance from the reference string -- in our case, usually Middle C.? So, it becomes a choice:? do we follow the mathematical model -- which results in the same beating between intervals of the *fundamentals* across the keyboard -- or do we focus on the beating between harmonics by stretching the tuning?? Since a piano is harmonic-rich, the answer seems to be the latter.

As you have written in previous message, harmonics are not problem, but inharmonicity of piano sound. And a certain role can play also psychoacoustics and pitch perception - it “seems” to our hearing that stretched tuned piano sounds better.

________
But I still wonder if the process applies to digital piano samples; or to non-string instruments like the Rhodes.? It's difficult to answer, because any reference piano is only going to remain perfectly tuned for a very short time.? Within minutes, string tension and temperature/humidity changes conspire to alter the pitch of each string.? So, one cannot compare a grand piano vs. a sample (or modeled) piano and make strong conclusions about frequency relations, unless its possible to do all the analysis within minutes of a piano tuner's work.

Maybe it has some sense to use stretched tuning for well done piano samples of each note with many velocity layers, or modeled piano. But I don’t think there’s hardly any reason in using stretched tuning on FM simulated piano sound (which is far from real piano sound) or on Rhodes or Wurlitzer. But it is good that Yamaha used it on vintage CP series of electro-acoustic pianos with strings.

That said, sometimes adding a little imperfection improves the overall sound, even if the results aren't 100% accurate.?

-BW

Bruce Wahler

Exactly, maybe that’s the reason for permanent interest in analog synthesizers (or recent boom of interest about modular synths), with all their pitch inaccuracies caused by unstable voltage control or oxidized key contacts.. And a good reason for the implementing various Random Pitch algorithms and functions in some digital instruments (including DX7 II D and its relatives).

Daniel Forro

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20793

开云体育

While this is totally off-topic, it really is, there are questions in my mind about this supposition.? I’m not saying it’s wrong, just having some logical questions coming up about this presumed phenomenon that I can’t square in my tiny brain.

1.?????? Most of the strings on a piano have no windings.? So how can tracking on windings be part of the blame where no windings exist?

2.?????? If the ‘windings do not track’ then where are they going?? They must be going somewhere and therefore relative motion between core and windings would exist.? ?

3.?????? If there is relative motion, won’t this produce collisions and extraneous noise? Or at the least, rubbing and scraping?

4.?????? In the many strings without windings – the higher notes – stretch tuning is certainly required.? How can this be?

5.?????? In Equal Temperament, there are no ‘fundamentals’ across the keyboard as every note is the same. ?How can there be a “reference” string?

We agree that Stretch Tuning is needed – I’m just trying to come up with a reason that withstands scrutiny.

Of course, my reason of “it’s just our ears vs. Equal Temperament” is hardly conclusive, either.

There is a range (usually straddling a point near Middle C, true) called “the temper” of notes that are tuned to specific interval beats, but not the octaves.? The octave between Middle C and the C-above (C5, 523.25Hz) ?is almost always tuned without beat.? A few others usually down to G3, likewise.? Then Octave tuning with applied stretch in both directions of all the notes.

Of course, this is old-school.? Modern strobes allow this to be done visually.? Recently, I’ve seen junior tuners using their phone apps with no stretch at all and wonder why the piano just doesn’t sound right.? Seems to be a dying craft.?

?

But the string issue is real:? the windings do not track the center core perfectly, and the issue grows over the distance from the reference string -- in our case, usually Middle C.? So, it becomes a choice:? do we follow the mathematical model -- which results in the same beating between intervals of the *fundamentals* across the keyboard -- or do we focus on the beating between harmonics by stretching the tuning?? Since a piano is harmonic-rich, the answer seems to be the latter.

?

Re: Intonation on DX7

#20792

Very interesting, and well said. Bruce!

On Friday, August 20, 2021, 05:21:13 p.m. PDT, Bruce Wahler via groups.io <bw@...> wrote:

> Other harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their solution.

I think this might be the crux of the situation.? Equal Temperament is very close to an ideal choice, but tuners noticed that following the rules of tuning exactly didn't end up with the best end results, at least, to the ear.

But the string issue is real:? the windings do not track the center core perfectly, and the issue grows over the distance from the reference string -- in our case, usually Middle C.? So, it becomes a choice:? do we follow the mathematical model -- which results in the same beating between intervals of the *fundamentals* across the keyboard -- or do we focus on the beating between harmonics by stretching the tuning?? Since a piano is harmonic-rich, the answer seems to be the latter.

________
But I still wonder if the process applies to digital piano samples; or to non-string instruments like the Rhodes.? It's difficult to answer, because any reference piano is only going to remain perfectly tuned for a very short time.? Within minutes, string tension and temperature/humidity changes conspire to alter the pitch of each string.? So, one cannot compare a grand piano vs. a sample (or modeled) piano and make strong conclusions about frequency relations, unless its possible to do all the analysis within minutes of a piano tuner's work.

That said, sometimes adding a little imperfection improves the overall sound, even if the results aren't 100% accurate.? As an example:? I've found that the Mellotron samples of my Nord Electro sound much more realistic if I apply the 'Vibrato' effect at a very slow setting.? Now, if one examines what that effect does at slow speed, it actually creates a non-linear pitch bend that is mostly flat, with a slight 'whip' of FM at the end, kind of like this --

?????? ______/\______/\______/\__

This is clearly *not* how the wow and flutter of a Mellotron's tape mechanism occurs.? Nevertheless, the slow vibrato adds a feeling that is missing when playing the dry samples -- even though they were recorded on a real Mellotron, with its own wow and flutter.? It may be that adding stretch values to a digital piano better simulates the effect of tuning an acoustic piano, then allowing the piano to settle a bit before use.? So, if stretch tuning improves your Kurzweil's illusion, or the realism of an FM piano, that's not a bad thing.? I just wouldn't stress over finding the 'perfect' tuning rules, because it may be that any small variation improves the sound.

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...

978.597.7008

PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding.
?
?

On 8/20/2021 7:05 PM, LarryS wrote:

I have heard this version before and I have heard other versions of WHY stretch tuning.?

While I’m not certain which explanation best encompasses all the physical world, I do know the debate carries on in certain circles.? What debate??

It’s not that the strings or their makeup that have anything to do with it, it’s our own imperfect, non-mechanical ears.? Of course, who wants to blame listeners, and ultimately customers?? Poor form.? So we blame the strings.

Trouble is, as we get closer models, both synth and sample, stretch tuning becomes more apparent – with nary a string involved.? My go-to for piano is a Kurzweil and yes, it sounds better with a few tweaks of stretch.

Stretch Tuning seems to be an outgrowth of Equal Temperament tuning.? Other harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their solution.

But like Bose speakers and Aphex Bottoms, it’s not about what’s mathematically correct, it’s what “sounds better”.? After all, this is how stretch tuning came about.? The various explanations came about much later.

For a couple of decades, it’s been a given that anything that can bring more animation into the sound of a DX7 is a good thing.? My guess is this is no exception.? Lots of unexplored possibilities, here.

BUT – this will be at-best a very subtle change to a 6 op FM patch.

Heck, it’s a pretty subtle change to an acoustic piano.

?

L.

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Williston
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 9:05 AM
To: [email protected]; bw@...; danforcz@...
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7

?

Exactly. The Railsback stretch/effect is due to the “inharmonicity” of the strings vibrating. To my knowledge, not even Pianoteq goes so far as to model this. I expect you’ll find no positive benefit from employing the “stretch tuning” as a result. But do keep us posted; it’s an interesting notion. It would never have occurred to me to apply those offsets to virtually generated tones.

?

Show quoted text

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bruce Wahler via groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 06:53
To: [email protected]; danforcz@...
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7

?

I suspect that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is necessary on an acoustic piano because of the way that a wound string behaves -- i.e., the windings do not perfectly follow the frequency of the core.? Stretch tuning is actually a compromise between the 'correct' mathematical pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the listener.

If one attempts to stretch tune say, a Fender Rhodes electric piano, the curve will be different, because tines act differently than strings.? Nevertheless, a stretch-tuned Rhodes sounds different than a equal-tempered Rhodes.? (I'm not going to choose a winner here, because attempting to copy acoustic piano idiosyncrasies on a Rhodes is a debatable endeavor.? A piano is a piano, and a Rhodes is its own instrument.)

Since an FM piano is closer to a mathematical model, I would expect that the fundamental/harmonic ratio differences would be minimal across the scale; in fact, any differences might not even be linear.

________
This is, of course, quite different from the microtuning changes used by Wendy Carlos and others.? In this case, the composer or player is trying to better duplicate the historical performance, which may use a tuning other than equal temperament.

Regards,

-BW

Bruce Wahler
Halfmoon-Switch.com?
bw@...

978.597.7008

PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding.
?
?

On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via groups.io wrote:

I have found in my archive another table sent to me by George Chakiris, it uses only small differences. I attached it.

?

The basic question is how stretch tuning will sound with FM generated electronic piano sound, which is far from the real acoustic piano sound, and if it has any reason to use is. I don’t think it can help to improve sound.

?

There was interesting discussion many years ago in microtonal composers circles about the relation between timbre and microtonal tunings. I think the person behind the research is a microtonal music composer William Sethares. Try to start here:

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Daniel Forro

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On Aug 20, 2021, at 3:26, philfrei via <philfrei@...> wrote:

?

Thanks for the nudge. I was personally emailed a file with settings that contain pitch adjustments for every note, and the equation that generated the numbers. It looks quite interesting, and was developed by the person who contacted me. I assume that the individual reads this list and I'd like to encourage them to share the chart and equation with the full group.

The bottom line, though, is that I don't know yet if there exists a chart on the Railsback effect produced by Yamaha engineers in any of their manuals. I've been a bit more focused on learning whether or not there is an industry-level standard practice on the issue than in testing how it sounds. So far, from the various people who are closer to studio recording tech than I, there doesn't seem to be much use or awareness of these pitch adjustments, which kind of surprises me. Maybe it is related to the ability of an acoustic musician to make adjustments on the fly, as I learned to do when playing the oboe in the studio.

So, unfortunately, the task of testing how it actually sounds got back-burnered. A related project, more front and center a the moment, is a pilot test I have going for an experiment on whether timbre affects the perceived pitch of notes. I'm collecting data from a handful of people, and need to find a good data-analysis person to ensure that what I'm collecting via the test is suitable for quantifying/modeling. (I'm more a composer/programmer than a scientist.)

I haven't used my DX7S in the studio much lately and figuring out the logistics of inputting and using the data is a bit nervous-making (due to unfamiliarity), though probably doable. I've been doing more with an FM synth I programmed using Java that can produce equivalent voices to those I developed on the DX7. When I get a chance, the plan is to work the Railsback Curve data into the functions that convert MIDI pitches to Hz and vice versa, and see how it sounds. If I get this working, I'll post links to a something that compares the two intonations back-to-back. But it could be another month or more.

>From: Eb Myatt
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 02:19:50 PDT

>Good Morning Phil,
>
>We haven't received any feedback from you since you last posted. So, did you manage to resolve the >"Railsback" tuning issue that you discussed? Please let us know if you have the table for the DX7s >or any other Yamaha synth ?
>
>Best Regards,
>E?

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