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>>? Anyone fancy a collaboration?? :-)

Interesting question.? I have items that might be useful:

• a RAM4 and a RAM5 (yes, a real one)
• a licensed copy of Altium Designer for PCB design
• 35 years' experience designing PC boards, including 20 or so routing them

And, I have some time to spend -- with caveats (see below).

________
The bigger question to the group is:? How many people want a finished product vs. a DIY kit?? Designing the RAM4 (or '5 or '6 ...) in 2017 using 1985 technology doesn't make a lot of sense, IMHO.? Most of the parts are obsolete, and new technologies have opened other approaches.? The battery could be eliminated, and there are ways to make a slick UI with a small display and a few push switches.? However, the project wouldn't be trivial, if it were done properly.? In a 'real' product, there are reliability and product life concerns to address -- anyone who is depending on a 30-year-old synth isn't going to want their memory card to fail in a couple of years.? And the UI software might be a larger task than the hardware.

I have a business, Ashby Solutions, that makes niche products for musicians and I'm experienced with the pros and cons.? When I first joined this group, I asked:? Would anyone be interested in purchasing a RAM4-like cartridge with 5-20x memory capability, using modern technology?? And if so, at what price?? The overall answer to my question was (paraphrasing), "I'm interested, but my funds are limited.? Plus, I like building my own.? I'd take a PC board layout, or even a raw PCB, but not finished goods."

Therein lies the rub.? It would only take a few hours to properly lay out a PCB using 1985-ish technology and create a list of parts with potential suppliers.? But the board would have to have a very simple UI (ex: DIP switches), and the list of suppliers is likely to change constantly.? A brand new design would be easier to support, but I suspect that the work would run to hundreds of hours.? I'd still be interested in designing a new product, but if the potential users are all on no/low budget, I can't justify the time -- at least, until I retire.? ;-)

Well, I have the electronics experience to do this myself, I can reverse engineer a ROM cart from a DX7S and I'm sure the schematics for the DX7S will allow me to fill in any gaps, (to find the r/w line especially) but I just don't have the time these days.?

Unfortunately there are a number of electrical differences. As Daniel says, the ADP1 adaptor is an option, albeit expensive.

There does seem to be quite a bit more interest in the RAM4 type than the RAM1.

The original RAM4 uses static RAM devices with a battery. This may have been done because of costs associated with EEPROM at the time. The RAM1 uses EEPROM, but it is a quarter of the storage size. If I were to design a RAM4 compatible cartridge I'd consider using EEPROM as the battery backup would be unnecessary.

I don't have a RAM4 cartridge (or a DX7II/s) myself so it would be tricky to reverse engineer. I took a number of the measurements for my design from an original RAM1 cartridge.

The schematics I have seen for the RAM4 also seem incomplete, particularly concerning the chip enables. Having a real cartridge to compare, probe and measure would be useful but typically $100 for a second hand one would be a significant up-front cost.

Anyone fancy a collaboration?? :-)

Hi Daniel,

The PCB mates quite accurately with the connector in the DX7.
There are two small notches that stop the board moving from side to side.

The frame of the connector slot on my DX7 is plastic so doesn't cause any electrical issues. I've not had any problems with movement. I'll try to get some photos tonight when I get home.

With a box it does plug in more nicely. Unfortunately I don't have a 3D printer myself so I got some example boxes printed by an online service (3D Hubs) using an Form 2 SLA printer. They were quite expensive and would probably add approximately ?18 to the cost of each complete cartridge in small numbers.

The box is in two halves that clip together around the PCB. Unfortunately using a low cost filament type 3D printer the accuracy wasn't good enough for a good fit. If I could get the numbers up to over 200 units then injection moulding would be an option!

Ant.

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I would like a blank PCB if its compatible with DX7II/S.

Excellent, aerobaticant.? That seems like a very fair price.? It's a shame my TX7 wasn't made with a cartridge slot.

Interesting options for loading patches.? Thanks, all.?

I like the Android app idea best, but mine is permanently tethered to my PC anyway, so I don't really need anything other than what I have set up.? If I wanted to play it live, a portable solution like that would be good, to save having to take a laptop.

I still like the idea of a black box filled with banks that I can switch remotely (e.g. by sending a Bank Select message), but I don't really feel like putting the effort into building one, and arguably don't really need one either.

Here's one option no one mentioned:



:)

Andy

... oh and I have a few bare PCBs available too, and could provide DigiKey part numbers for all components if anyone's feeling adventurous!

Hi Daniel et al,

I have refreshed the eBay listing for my RAM Cartridge boards.

I'm not sure what happened previously - it appears that a reply to the group didn't work. I seem to have quite a lot of issues with Yahoo! groups.

Hopefully this will generate some interest now!



Please feel free to ask any questions!

Regards,

Ant.

Not so bad, my experience is rather good, I didn’t lose much data due some issues or problems. I use them since 185 - those times still 5.25 inch with Commodore 64, my first computer.

Still I use them in many devices and instruments and it works.

Of course it’s necessary to have everything back-up’d, and avoid magnetic fields. Otherwise I can’t complain, I have more thousands of floppies and use them daily. Nowadays it’s possible to buy USB FDD for 5 USD…

So I stopped considering replacement of FDD in my machines for floppy emulators or card readers. It has no sense, I don’t see any advantage. Those diskettes will survive me :-)

Daniel Forro

On Sep 20, 2017, at 17:20, Martin Tarenskeen m.tarenskeen@... [YamahaDX] <YamahaDX@...> wrote:

Floppy disks were a nightmare.

.

On Tue, 19 Sep 2017, christophe.perrod@... [YamahaDX] wrote:

sorry, someone said here the cartridge connector is not quite the same as the mk1 DX7's...I don't own a DX7II, so I can't build and test a
dedicated design...

Not only only the cartridge connector is different, also the DX7II has additional data on top of the 128 bytes per patch. The can read DX7 Mk.I data however, and it can read DX7 Mk1 cartridges using a special adaptor (ADP1). To use your 256x32 patches card in a DX7II would require a connector/case similar to that ADP1 adaptor.

--

MT

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017, Daniel Forró danforcz@... [YamahaDX] wrote:

You can use the old MDF - MIDI Data Filer, for example MDF2 or MDF3. It’s very useful small machine, good for storing and sending SysEx banks.
Besides it can play MIDI files which is good for connection with some GM/GS/XG module.

But it uses floppy disks, that can be problem for somebody. FDD can be replaced with some kind of floppy emulator with SD cards or USB memory
stick.

Another modern option for small and portable storage of SysEx banks is
using a smartphone and a suitable cable/adaptor to connect to MIDI.

This worked perfectly with my Huawei P8 (Android) + USB-OTG cable + Edirol
UM-1X + Midi Commander app, until I dropped my phone in the water. Oops. I
had stored tons of patches for my synth stored on a tiny 16GB microSD
card. Thinking of the good days: not everything in the past was better.
Floppy disks were a nightmare.

Unfortunately my new phone, a cheaper model, doesn't support USB-OTG
connection properly. USB-OTG support isn't well documented in the
manufacturers info of most Android smartphones. I'm thinking of buying a
new phone that is compatible with USB-OTG and that is able to run the
Syx-Lib app.

I am not familiar with iPhones, but I assume these can be used too, maybe
even better than Android. You will probable need one of those overprized
adaptor cables that Apple sells. There is an app named Midi Tool Box that
should work. Maybe there is an iPhone user here in the forum who can tell
more.

--

MT

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It seems to be some trend in last years - not only Yamaha goes this way with Reface series. Korg has more versions of their MS20, there’s Volca series (one also using FM), they offered even old ARP! Roland did Jupiter, Boutique series, recently some old modular…

Mostly with those unpleasant small keys good for anything, just not for performance.

All Japanese firms, maybe it’s some kind of reaction on the lack of space in Japanese houses and appartments?

If they are not able to bring something really new, they can do combinations as you said. The last attempt for innovation by Yamaha was FS1r. Combination were used in EX5/7, to some degree they were possible with plugin card system. And the last Montage is a combination of improved FM and samples..

But maybe they think user can make such combination instrument (which would be expensive) from more small instruments…

Daniel Forro

On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:40, 'Nicole Massey' nyyki@... [YamahaDX] <YamahaDX@...> wrote:

Yeah, that's my big complaint with Yamaha these days -- all they're doing is repackaging things. They're not giving me a reason to buy from them -- they'll have to give me an option that's more than I can get running soft synths on a Muse Receptor before I'll get ready to fork over some bills. And the shame of it is that they have the technology to do this -- give us a line of instruments that can mix FM, ROM samples, user samples, Physical Modeling, and modular style subtractive synthesis with resonant filters and a vast array of signal path and modulation options and then we could create both our old school sounds (or load them through dumps to the instrument) and blend in newer and different elements. That'd be worth buying, especially if the FM was 8-operator. Regurgitation isn't innovation, folks.

-----Original Message-----
From: YamahaDX@... [mailto:YamahaDX@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 9:33 PM
To: YamahaDX@...
Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] DX7 ROM Card with 256 x 32 patches



Yes, I see the point, Daniel. Communication is why we are here.

If I had a cartridge slot on my TX7, I'd definitely be interested in one of each - a RAM cartridge and a ROM cartridge. Maybe the next project will be a cartridge carousel, so they can both be left in the slot and switched between :)

Agreed; this might actually be a better time to offer one than last year. Yamaha have successfully piqued interest in FM again, while failing to provide a product for people to buy that really does what a lot of us want.

Okay, I'm sure the Reface DX has its points, but I'd want something that's functionally better than my TX7 or TX81Z, not something that's kind of cut down, with a few new quirks added, before I parted with a few hundred for a new one.

Maybe they have something else in the pipeline? I hope they do, but I won't hold my breath. The FM synths they made in the 80s, are still the ones to get. So, yes, more accessories to improve those are what we need.

Andy

.

Exactly, Nicole.

Actually, I'd settle for a box that did one of those things well, so long as it did something that was new and relatively innovative - I appreciate they might not be able to make enough money by putting a lot of functionality in one box, though they definitely could do that if they wanted to.

I came very close to buying a Reface CP.? I'm still not absolutely ruling out ever buying one, but I can get so close to what that can do by just using my TX7 and their cartridge patches, so I can't easily justify it.?

That was the point of the pianos+EPs+clavs bank I attached.? It's not as realistic as a Reface CP, doesn't have the knobs, but it does the job, does it well, and has a choice of 32 instruments loaded instead of 6 (and one acoustic piano they won't admit exists... very odd).

Also, the lack of proper MIDI sockets REALLY bothers me.

I recently saw a Yamaha CBX K1 MIDI keyboard, and bought it on the spot.? It's almost the same form factor as a Reface CP, but with only a pitch bender and an assignable wheel.?

It has proper MIDI In and Out sockets though, and the In is merged, so i can plug a knobby MIDI controller into it, mostly for my other synth modules rather than the FM ones.? The action is quite nice, very like the Reface CP keyboard seemed in the shop when I tried one.

So:

Old Yamaha TX7 synth expander module, from the 80s, which I already owned

+

Old Yamaha mini 37 key keyboard, from a while ago (not sure when)

+ 32 free patches

+ (if I felt like it) some of my many recently unused electric guitar effects pedals, mostly based on designs by Boss etc, from decades ago.

OR

A shiny new Reface CP, with only 7 instrument sounds and a stupid floppy adapter cable that I'd expect to lose or break on a fairly regular basis.

Each has it's merits I guess, but yes, there's nothing new there, really.? Spectral Component Modelling seems like a useful idea because it can do smooth transitions over all 127 velocity levels, but then FM could do that 30 years ago, and do it pretty well.

Andy

Yeah, that's my big complaint with Yamaha these days -- all they're doing is repackaging things. They're not giving me a reason to buy from them -- they'll have to give me an option that's more than I can get running soft synths on a Muse Receptor before I'll get ready to fork over some bills. And the shame of it is that they have the technology to do this -- give us a line of instruments that can mix FM, ROM samples, user samples, Physical Modeling, and modular style subtractive synthesis with resonant filters and a vast array of signal path and modulation options and then we could create both our old school sounds (or load them through dumps to the instrument) and blend in newer and different elements. That'd be worth buying, especially if the FM was 8-operator. Regurgitation isn't innovation, folks.

Yes, I see the point, Daniel.? Communication is why we are here.

If I had a cartridge slot on my TX7, I'd definitely be interested in one of each - a RAM cartridge and a ROM cartridge.? Maybe the next project will be a cartridge carousel, so they can both be left in the slot and switched between :)

Agreed; this might actually be a better time to offer one than last year.? Yamaha have successfully piqued interest in FM again, while failing to provide a product for people to buy that really does what a lot of us want.

Okay, I'm sure the Reface DX has its points, but I'd want something that's functionally better than my TX7 or TX81Z, not something that's kind of cut down, with a few new quirks added, before I parted with a few hundred for a new one.

Maybe they have something else in the pipeline?? I hope they do, but I won't hold my breath.? The FM synths they made in the 80s, are still the ones to get.? So, yes, more accessories to improve those are what we need.

Andy

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