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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
开云体育I always thought that Yamaha were on a tight budget in the mid 80s.? They had the FM synthesis licencing sewn up.?? The early FM machines like the GS1 and the DX1 you can tell that Yamaha spent money on the look, feel, and the electronic components.? You know.. decent power supplies and decent output stages and decent FM chips. I still have a beaten up old DX9 and I swear to you that it has a better sounding engine than say a DX27 that was 2 years newer. I have had two DX21 and there is a horrible aliasing that happens when you push the FM index too high.. it tends to repeat higher notes where it cannot cope with the computations.? The low end sounds are not as organic and deep as the DX9.? Although the DX21 does have 2 engines for dual detuned or just dual additive 4 note polyphony.? The DX9 is 16 note polyphonic. Verzonden vanaf mijn Huawei mobiele telefoon -------- Oorspronkelijk bericht -------- Onderwerp: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project Van: "KW via groups.io" Aan: [email protected] Cc:
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Plus 8 noise operators.
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Daniel Forró On Jun 16, 2021, at 3:54, Nicole Massey <nyyki@...> wrote: |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Kodamo EssenceFM is also interesting, but 6OP.
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Daniel Forró On Jun 16, 2021, at 5:25, Martin Tarenskeen <m.tarenskeen@...> wrote: |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Yes, TQ5/YS200/YS100 are 8 voice polyphonic.
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Verzonden vanaf mijn Huawei mobiele telefoon -------- Oorspronkelijk bericht -------- Onderwerp: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project Van: "KW via groups.io" Aan: [email protected] Cc:
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
im not sure if we spoke about this here
before martin , but couldn't the waveforms be transcribed if broken down ? mathematically waveforms are just additive or subtractive so on the remaining free 2 ops we could combine any to create wave shape ? I know , not much more than a dream of an ideal right now but has anybody ever tried using a square and a sine to make triangular waveform on the dx? read about useage of combining waveforms in my cz or fz or vz manual Charles |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
KW
for synthaction keybed V50 has one of the best i've played. and i've tried many synths to my knowledge V50 and B500 is the only 4op FM with 16 voices, quite unique! TQ5 ? no i think that was 8 voice right?
Den tisdag 15 juni 2021 21:05:39 CEST, John Ames <commodorejohn@...> skrev:
Yeah, that would've been killer, especially since the V50 keybed is nothing to write home about. Ah well... On 6/15/21, Nicole Massey <nyyki@...> wrote:
> I wish there was a V50 rack unit, but that was during the Rise of the > Workstations, so module versions were less common. > > Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Ames > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 1:33 PM > To: [email protected]; vision1@... > Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project > > For those who're interested, the V50 is essentially two TX81Zs in a > keyboard, plus a cheap drum machine and some basic effects. They're still > going for fairly bargain prices, too. > > And yeah, the TX81Z is underappreciated; not quite as classic as the DX7, > but much more featureful than a lot of the 4-ops, and the additional > waveforms and flexible layering open up a lot of sonic territory that the > big DXen can't easily replicate. > > On 6/15/21, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote: >> Certainly true. >> >> I am one of those fair-weather-FM users that had a TX81z and it never >> went anywhere.? The presets were middling and nowhere could I find >> super sounds at the time, so I ditched the thing because my exciting >> life just didn’t have time to stare at a 2 line display. >> >> As I recall, I had gotten it because the TX-7 wasn’t rack mount and >> the TX816… well, who could afford THAT?? Nothing in between. >> >> While I’m not up on every piece of hardware any longer, I’m still >> quite the fanboy of FM and would very much love to see someone take it >> to the next level.? Multi wave forms.? 8 (or more) operators. >> Adaptable, even dynamically assignable algorithms.? Real time >> parameter changes.? Not especially tough in software with today’s >> hardware, but I doubt we’ll ever see a Grand Old Keyboard made from it. >> >> >> >> L. >> >> >> >> >> >> but I could make an argument that if the FM community as a whole had >> spent as much time programming the TX801z as the DX7, there might have >> been a lot more surprises to enjoy.? I performed for over three years >> with *nothing* but four -- yes, four -- TX81z modules in my rack., >> connected to a Roland >> MKB-300 >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> -BW >> >> Bruce Wahler >> Halfmoon-Switch.com? >> bw@... >> >> 978.597.7008 >> >> > > |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, Nicole Massey wrote:
The FS1R was 8 operator, from what I'm told.Yes it is. But hard to get. And my FVX-1 has 8 operators. It's nearly impossible to get: I am not selling mine :-) The FM-X engine in the MODX and Montage is also 8-operator. -- MT |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, LarryS wrote:
I’m still quite the fanboy of FM and would very much love to see someone take it to the next level.? MultiSounds like a Yamaha Montage or MODX to me. MT |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Bruce Wahler
开云体育Agreed.? If there was an "V50R," I'd be on eBay right now!? :)
Regards,
-BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. ? ? On 6/15/2021 2:55 PM, Nicole Massey
wrote:
I wish there was a V50 rack unit, but that was during the Rise of the Workstations, so module versions were less common. Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Ames Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 1:33 PM To: [email protected]; vision1@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project For those who're interested, the V50 is essentially two TX81Zs in a keyboard, plus a cheap drum machine and some basic effects. They're still going for fairly bargain prices, too. And yeah, the TX81Z is underappreciated; not quite as classic as the DX7, but much more featureful than a lot of the 4-ops, and the additional waveforms and flexible layering open up a lot of sonic territory that the big DXen can't easily replicate. On 6/15/21, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:Certainly true. I am one of those fair-weather-FM users that had a TX81z and it never went anywhere. The presets were middling and nowhere could I find super sounds at the time, so I ditched the thing because my exciting life just didn’t have time to stare at a 2 line display. As I recall, I had gotten it because the TX-7 wasn’t rack mount and the TX816… well, who could afford THAT? Nothing in between. While I’m not up on every piece of hardware any longer, I’m still quite the fanboy of FM and would very much love to see someone take it to the next level. Multi wave forms. 8 (or more) operators. Adaptable, even dynamically assignable algorithms. Real time parameter changes. Not especially tough in software with today’s hardware, but I doubt we’ll ever see a Grand Old Keyboard made from it. L. but I could make an argument that if the FM community as a whole had spent as much time programming the TX801z as the DX7, there might have been a lot more surprises to enjoy. I performed for over three years with *nothing* but four -- yes, four -- TX81z modules in my rack., connected to a Roland MKB-300 Regards, -BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Yeah, that would've been killer, especially since the V50 keybed is
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nothing to write home about. Ah well... On 6/15/21, Nicole Massey <nyyki@...> wrote:
I wish there was a V50 rack unit, but that was during the Rise of the |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
I wish there was a V50 rack unit, but that was during the Rise of the Workstations, so module versions were less common.
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Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Ames Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 1:33 PM To: [email protected]; vision1@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project For those who're interested, the V50 is essentially two TX81Zs in a keyboard, plus a cheap drum machine and some basic effects. They're still going for fairly bargain prices, too. And yeah, the TX81Z is underappreciated; not quite as classic as the DX7, but much more featureful than a lot of the 4-ops, and the additional waveforms and flexible layering open up a lot of sonic territory that the big DXen can't easily replicate. On 6/15/21, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote: Certainly true. |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
The FS1R was 8 operator, from what I'm told.
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Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of LarryS Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 1:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project Certainly true. I am one of those fair-weather-FM users that had a TX81z and it never went anywhere. The presets were middling and nowhere could I find super sounds at the time, so I ditched the thing because my exciting life just didn’t have time to stare at a 2 line display. As I recall, I had gotten it because the TX-7 wasn’t rack mount and the TX816… well, who could afford THAT? Nothing in between. While I’m not up on every piece of hardware any longer, I’m still quite the fanboy of FM and would very much love to see someone take it to the next level. Multi wave forms. 8 (or more) operators. Adaptable, even dynamically assignable algorithms. Real time parameter changes. Not especially tough in software with today’s hardware, but I doubt we’ll ever see a Grand Old Keyboard made from it. L. but I could make an argument that if the FM community as a whole had spent as much time programming the TX801z as the DX7, there might have been a lot more surprises to enjoy. I performed for over three years with *nothing* but four -- yes, four -- TX81z modules in my rack., connected to a Roland MKB-300 Regards, -BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... <mailto:bw@...> 978.597.7008 |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
For those who're interested, the V50 is essentially two TX81Zs in a
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keyboard, plus a cheap drum machine and some basic effects. They're still going for fairly bargain prices, too. And yeah, the TX81Z is underappreciated; not quite as classic as the DX7, but much more featureful than a lot of the 4-ops, and the additional waveforms and flexible layering open up a lot of sonic territory that the big DXen can't easily replicate. On 6/15/21, LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:
Certainly true. |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
开云体育Certainly true. I am one of those fair-weather-FM users that had a TX81z and it never went anywhere.? The presets were middling and nowhere could I find super sounds at the time, so I ditched the thing because my exciting life just didn’t have time to stare at a 2 line display. As I recall, I had gotten it because the TX-7 wasn’t rack mount and the TX816… well, who could afford THAT?? Nothing in between. While I’m not up on every piece of hardware any longer, I’m still quite the fanboy of FM and would very much love to see someone take it to the next level.? Multi wave forms.? 8 (or more) operators.? Adaptable, even dynamically assignable algorithms. ?Real time parameter changes. ?Not especially tough in software with today’s hardware, but I doubt we’ll ever see a Grand Old Keyboard made from it. ? L. ? ? but I could make an argument that if the FM community as a whole had spent as much time programming the TX801z as the DX7, there might have been a lot more surprises to enjoy.? I performed for over three years with *nothing* but four -- yes, four -- TX81z modules in my rack., connected to a Roland MKB-300 ? Regards, |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Bruce Wahler
开云体育The TX81z Owner's Manual has a section (Waveform Harmonic Content, Pg. 50) that shows the eight waveforms and their harmonics.? Some of them have a high degree of 2nd-5th harmonic energy, and are roughly equivalent to modulating a sine operator with 2-4 others on the DX7.? Some of them also make interesting sounds on their own, with limited or no additional modulation; or combined together with slight detuning, to simulate an analog synth with multiple oscillators.The end results aren't quite the same, but I could make an argument that if the FM community as a whole had spent as much time programming the TX801z as the DX7, there might have been a lot more surprises to enjoy.? I performed for over three years with *nothing* but four -- yes, four -- TX81z modules in my rack., connected to a Roland MKB-300.? I used them for piano, EP, Clavinet, acoustic guitar, strings, organ, you name it.? In 2021 terms, the end results varied quite a bit -- some were quite realistic; others, less so -- but I could make the same critique of a DX5, DX7II, or TX802 vs. available modern gear.
Regards,
-BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. ? ? On 6/15/2021 11:50 AM, Nicole Massey
wrote:
If you can find the ad that ran for the TX81Z on the back of Keyboard magazine it had them pictured. One of them looked like two sine waves in phase with the frequency in one of them doubled, IIRC. Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of PeWe Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 9:53 AM To: [email protected]; danforcz@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project Which additional waveforms are we talking about ? I never owned a TX81Z,- just only DX7 which I sold,- DX7mkIIFD, TX816 and TG77 ... Do we find the missing waveforms in SY&TG 77 and SY99 ROM ??? Were these single cycle samples or pre-programmed waveform-templates (like saw, square & trianagle) in ROM ? I can imagine re-constructing patches in a TG77 when there were some info about add. waveform levels in given TX81Z patches. The TG77?s filter and lo-fi FX come in addition ... Am 15.06.2021 um 16:24 schrieb Daniel Forró via groups.io:I think it wouldn’t be easy to get from the pair of operators a timbre missing in the total sound of the patch. But maybe additional tweaking of the other four operators in algorithm structure simulating 4OP patch, in conjunction with those two operators can make it… I'm now meditating about the other interesting challenge - to imitate 6OP sounds on 4OP synth, at least on those able to layer two patches… :-) It would be difficult if not impossible to approximate non existing algorithms and key scaling, different envelopes… Daniel Forró-- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
If you can find the ad that ran for the TX81Z on the back of Keyboard magazine it had them pictured. One of them looked like two sine waves in phase with the frequency in one of them doubled, IIRC.
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Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of PeWe Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 9:53 AM To: [email protected]; danforcz@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project Which additional waveforms are we talking about ? I never owned a TX81Z,- just only DX7 which I sold,- DX7mkIIFD, TX816 and TG77 ... Do we find the missing waveforms in SY&TG 77 and SY99 ROM ??? Were these single cycle samples or pre-programmed waveform-templates (like saw, square & trianagle) in ROM ? I can imagine re-constructing patches in a TG77 when there were some info about add. waveform levels in given TX81Z patches. The TG77?s filter and lo-fi FX come in addition ... Am 15.06.2021 um 16:24 schrieb Daniel Forró via groups.io: I think it wouldn’t be easy to get from the pair of operators a timbre -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Which additional waveforms are we talking about ?
I never owned a TX81Z,- just only DX7 which I sold,- DX7mkIIFD, TX816 and TG77 ... Do we find the missing waveforms in SY&TG 77 and SY99 ROM ??? Were these single cycle samples or pre-programmed waveform-templates (like saw, square & trianagle) in ROM ? I can imagine re-constructing patches in a TG77 when there were some info about add. waveform levels in given TX81Z patches. The TG77?s filter and lo-fi FX come in addition ... Am 15.06.2021 um 16:24 schrieb Daniel Forró via groups.io: I think it wouldn’t be easy to get from the pair of operators a timbre missing in the total sound of the patch. But maybe additional tweaking of the other four operators in algorithm structure simulating 4OP patch, in conjunction with those two operators can make it… -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Bruce Wahler
开云体育It's all a matter of try and see.? I started out in the FM world on a DX9, with its four sine operators.? It wasn't a DX7, but it got close, in many cases.? I can tell you that I missed velocity sensitivity far more than I missed the extra two operators.Regards, -BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. ? ? On 6/15/2021 10:24 AM, Daniel Forró via
groups.io wrote:
I think it wouldn’t be easy to get from the pair of operators a timbre missing in the total sound of the patch. But maybe additional tweaking of the other four operators in algorithm structure simulating 4OP patch, in conjunction with those two operators can make it… I'm now meditating about the other interesting challenge - to imitate 6OP sounds on 4OP synth, at least on those able to layer two patches… :-) It would be difficult if not impossible to approximate non existing algorithms and key scaling, different envelopes… Daniel ForróOn Jun 15, 2021, at 22:56, Nicole Massey <nyyki@...> wrote: What I've always wondered is if there's a way to create those additional waveforms using a carrier/modulator pair so straight sine wave instruments could get in the neighborhood. Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin Tarenskeen Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 6:32 AM To: Jeremy Bernstein <jeremy.d.bernstein@...> Cc: YamahaDX <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, Jeremy Bernstein wrote:Thanks so much for your work on this! A naive question: how, if at all, have you handled the additionalwaveforms on the TX81Z/DX11? Hi, The additional waveforms that were introduced with the TX81Z are ignored. In general not everyting could be converted faithfully. There are quite some bigger and smaller differences between the DX7 and the 4-op FM family of synths. But I hereby invite everyone to do something useful and interesting with the 2 unused operators that are left :-) -- MT |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
Bruce Wahler
开云体育If we look at the harmonic content of complex waveforms, and compare them to the tricks used to create 'analog synth' waveforms on the DX7, there are some ways to work around the differences.? Disclaimer:? this will NOT perfectly duplicate the results; but it might get close enough on some sounds.-? A sawtooth wave is the fundamental, plus 1/n * each harmonic (1/2 of the 2nd, harmonic, 1/3 of the 3rd, etc.) So, we need to find waves in the complex table whose harmonics match these waveforms; then simulate them with two or more sine operators: -? A 1x modulator will approximate a sawtooth wave, with care taken to keep the modulation level to a reasonable amount.? This is similar to the effect of W4, or W2+W3. One can use these relations to substitute two (or three) sines on a 6-op synth for one complex wave on a 4-op 'deluxe' like the DX100 or TX81z.? The results may not be exactly the same, but might be 'good enough.'
Regards,
-BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. ? ? On 6/15/2021 9:56 AM, Nicole Massey
wrote:
What I've always wondered is if there's a way to create those additional waveforms using a carrier/modulator pair so straight sine wave instruments could get in the neighborhood. Sent from my HAL 9000 in transit to Jupiter -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin Tarenskeen Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2021 6:32 AM To: Jeremy Bernstein <jeremy.d.bernstein@...> Cc: YamahaDX <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project On Tue, 15 Jun 2021, Jeremy Bernstein wrote:Thanks so much for your work on this! A naive question: how, if at all, have you handled the additionalwaveforms on the TX81Z/DX11? Hi, The additional waveforms that were introduced with the TX81Z are ignored. In general not everyting could be converted faithfully. There are quite some bigger and smaller differences between the DX7 and the 4-op FM family of synths. But I hereby invite everyone to do something useful and interesting with the 2 unused operators that are left :-) |
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Re: The 4OP to DX7 Conversion Project
I think it wouldn’t be easy to get from the pair of operators a timbre missing in the total sound of the patch. But maybe additional tweaking of the other four operators in algorithm structure simulating 4OP patch, in conjunction with those two operators can make it…
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I'm now meditating about the other interesting challenge - to imitate 6OP sounds on 4OP synth, at least on those able to layer two patches… :-) It would be difficult if not impossible to approximate non existing algorithms and key scaling, different envelopes… Daniel Forró On Jun 15, 2021, at 22:56, Nicole Massey <nyyki@...> wrote: |
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