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Re: Intonation on DX7
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Very interesting, and well said. Bruce!
On Friday, August 20, 2021, 05:21:13 p.m. PDT, Bruce Wahler via groups.io <bw@...> wrote:
> Other harmonic-based tunings don’t
need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to
Stretch for their solution. I think this might be the crux of the situation.? Equal Temperament is very close to an ideal choice, but tuners noticed that following the rules of tuning exactly didn't end up with the best end results, at least, to the ear. But the string issue is real:? the windings do not track the center core perfectly, and the issue grows over the distance from the reference string -- in our case, usually Middle C.? So, it becomes a choice:? do we follow the mathematical model -- which results in the same beating between intervals of the *fundamentals* across the keyboard -- or do we focus on the beating between harmonics by stretching the tuning?? Since a piano is harmonic-rich, the answer seems to be the latter. ________ But I still wonder if the process applies to digital piano samples; or to non-string instruments like the Rhodes.? It's difficult to answer, because any reference piano is only going to remain perfectly tuned for a very short time.? Within minutes, string tension and temperature/humidity changes conspire to alter the pitch of each string.? So, one cannot compare a grand piano vs. a sample (or modeled) piano and make strong conclusions about frequency relations, unless its possible to do all the analysis within minutes of a piano tuner's work. That said, sometimes adding a little imperfection improves the overall sound, even if the results aren't 100% accurate.? As an example:? I've found that the Mellotron samples of my Nord Electro sound much more realistic if I apply the 'Vibrato' effect at a very slow setting.? Now, if one examines what that effect does at slow speed, it actually creates a non-linear pitch bend that is mostly flat, with a slight 'whip' of FM at the end, kind of like this -- ?????? ______/\______/\______/\__ This is clearly *not* how the wow and flutter of a Mellotron's tape mechanism occurs.? Nevertheless, the slow vibrato adds a feeling that is missing when playing the dry samples -- even though they were recorded on a real Mellotron, with its own wow and flutter.? It may be that adding stretch values to a digital piano better simulates the effect of tuning an acoustic piano, then allowing the piano to settle a bit before use.? So, if stretch tuning improves your Kurzweil's illusion, or the realism of an FM piano, that's not a bad thing.? I just wouldn't stress over finding the 'perfect' tuning rules, because it may be that any small variation improves the sound.
Regards, -BW Bruce Wahler Halfmoon-Switch.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 PLEASE NOTE: ?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon. ?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. ? ? On 8/20/2021 7:05 PM, LarryS wrote:
I have heard this version before and I have heard other versions of WHY stretch tuning.? While I’m not certain which explanation best encompasses all the physical world, I do know the debate carries on in certain circles.? What debate?? It’s not that the strings or their makeup that have anything to do with it, it’s our own imperfect, non-mechanical ears.? Of course, who wants to blame listeners, and ultimately customers?? Poor form.? So we blame the strings. Trouble is, as we get closer models, both synth and sample, stretch tuning becomes more apparent – with nary a string involved.? My go-to for piano is a Kurzweil and yes, it sounds better with a few tweaks of stretch. Stretch Tuning seems to be an outgrowth of Equal Temperament tuning.? Other harmonic-based tunings don’t need this – or at least have enough other problems to not turn to Stretch for their solution. But like Bose speakers and Aphex Bottoms, it’s not about what’s mathematically correct, it’s what “sounds better”.? After all, this is how stretch tuning came about.? The various explanations came about much later. For a couple of decades, it’s been a given that anything that can bring more animation into the sound of a DX7 is a good thing.? My guess is this is no exception.? Lots of unexplored possibilities, here. BUT – this will be at-best a very subtle change to a 6 op FM patch. Heck, it’s a pretty subtle change to an acoustic piano. ? L. ? From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of John Williston ? ? Exactly. The Railsback stretch/effect is due to the “inharmonicity” of the strings vibrating. To my knowledge, not even Pianoteq goes so far as to model this. I expect you’ll find no positive benefit from employing the “stretch tuning” as a result. But do keep us posted; it’s an interesting notion. It would never have occurred to me to apply those offsets to virtually generated tones. ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On
Behalf Of Bruce Wahler via groups.io
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 06:53 To: [email protected]; danforcz@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] Intonation on DX7 ? I suspect
that if stretch tuning benefits an FM piano, it will be
something of a 'happy accident.'? Stretch tuning is
necessary on an acoustic piano because of the way that a
wound string behaves -- i.e., the windings do not perfectly
follow the frequency of the core.? Stretch tuning is
actually a compromise between the 'correct' mathematical
pitch and one which sounds more pleasing to the listener. Regards, PLEASE NOTE:
?The AshbySolutions.com domain will be closed soon.
?Please use the new (wahler.us) email for all future
correspondence. ?Thank you for your understanding. On 8/20/2021 7:27 AM, Daniel Forró via groups.io wrote:
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