Welcome to the XRF Wiki. This Wiki is a repository of information contributed by members of [email protected]. Members can view and edit the pages. The pages are currently not viewable by the public. The pages below represent a rough overview of the technology and techniques associated with X-Ray Florescence Spectroscopy as well as serving as a place for members to organize the spectra that they have contributed to the forum.?
As a starting point, the pages will be populated by information taken from member posts from the past few years - with references/attribution. Perhaps in time, these pages can be edited by members to make them more complete and less choppy. Members can also edit this page, making the structure of the content more organized.?
Pages can contain information about a particular topic, links to relevant resources (such as manuals, research papers, etc.), links to relevant forum discussions on the topic, book titles, or anything that might be useful.
What follows is very much a work in progress.
?
Adding to the Wiki
For those unfamiliar with the Wiki phenomenon, it is basically a user editable encyclopedia. The idea is that there are pages with different articles, which the user can read and also choose to edit if desired. If a piece of information is incorrect, a link outdated, or the presentation choppy or unclear, the user can just click "Edit Page" at the bottom and then fix the mistake. There is also a "Page History," so if you a user were to make a mistake or maliciously destroy a page (which wouldn't happen here) an editor can come along and restore the page to a previous version.?
If you have used MediaWiki (the engine that runs behind the scene of Wikipedia.org) you will be familiar with a certain style of creating an article. There are tags that one uses to change the formatting of the parts of the article. The Wiki on Groups.io uses a different background engine and so the standard MediaWiki syntax does not apply here. Rather, the page is edited using the same tools as one would use to compose a message on the forums. If you are a programmer or someone who likes using the tagged syntax directly, you can access the underlying page source code, be activating the advanced editing toolbar (the icon with three lines on the far right of the basic toolbar) and then clicking on the source code icon <> on the far right of the Advance Editing Toolbar. You will immediately notice that the underlying source code is HTML. Most things can be done just by using the various icons, but advanced features like table can only be implemented by manually writing the source code. (Although there are website available that will generate the source code for you through a graphical interface.)
This section describes the hardware used for XRF. We will describe the basic theory of operation of each stage in the processing tool chain and then present different commercial systems that are available as these systems are often integrated together.
[Editor note: General theory needs to be in an independent page separate from specific manufacturer information.
[Editor note - question: Should this be arranged by category, e.g detectors, preamps, etc or by manufacturer with the manufacturers product line on one page. Perhaps it's best to put a list of products with theory but the details of the products on a manufacture page...]
Detectors?- what's available, theory of operation, tradeoffs
Detector Cooling?- keeping detectors cool to avoid thermal noise and keeping the TEC from overheating
Preamps?- theory of operation, brief summary of what out there (and what not to do - such as trying to use a PMT preamp for a SiPIN diode...)
Pulse Processing Theory - high level overview of the stages of going from detector pulse to channel peaks on the computer
Commercial Systems - many commercial systems are integrated so it seems to make sense to present, for example all Amptek products together. [question: are their other affordable integrated systems besides Amptek?]
When we changed over from Yahoo Groups to Groups.io Groups? some changes were made.?
To avoid 75,000 unrelated posts again, the subject matter was divided up into specialty groups?to allow us to focus on specific areas of interest.
Of course there is some overlap, but for example the?XRF Group is for purposely excited XRF using advanced X-Ray detectors, including solid state, proportional, and on occasion scintillation detectors. For THEREMINO or basic scintillator? questions and reporting continue using GammaSpectroscopy group headed up by C.R.
GammaSpectrometryGroup headed up by myself (Geo) we have a place for advance techniques non-excited Gamma (and X-Ray) Spectrum analysis discussions. Again for THEREMINO and basic scintillator discussions see CR's group GammaSpectroscopy.
Notice in the list below is a group called XRF/NDT. NDT means Non Destructive Testing. This is where deep diving into Raman Spectrometry, LIBS and other advanced techniques users can cluster.
Following is? a list of Groups.io Groups set up and run by yours truly.
George Dowell Geo>K0FF
Alpha-Beta-Gamma-Society
?CDV700CLUB
?GammaSpectrometry-Archives
?GammaSpectrometryGroup
?GeigerCounterEnthusiasts-Archives
?GeigerCounterEnthusiastsGroup
?GEO-COUNTER MODULE FOCUS GROUP
?GEO-DCA and BUFFER-4 Focus Group
?GEO-DD
?GEOelectronics
?GEO-HVG HIGH VOLTAGE GENERATOR MODULE FOCUS GROUP
?GEO-PRE-3 3 Stage PREAMPLIFIER MODULE FOCUS GROUP
?ALL FORMS OF NUCLEAR INSTRUMENTATION PREAMPS AND LINE DRIVERS
?GeorgeDowell-HomeRadLab
?GeorgeDowell-MicrowaveOpticsLab
?GeorgeDowell-XRF-NDT-LAB
?GEO-SHOW2ME DISPLAY AND CONTROL MODULE FOCUS GROUP
Nick, once again I have to say that it would be awesome if we lived closer together. ;) The overlap in our stashes of goodies, and thus interests, is significant.
I have several more of those ancient rack units,? Scientific Atlanta stuff from an old satellite tracking station that was at NMSU/PSL. Among other things. Hard to believe,? I know... On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 7:06 PM <GEOelectronics@... <mailto:GEOelectronics@...>> wrote: Good to know we have a member who can cut keyways and slots! And I have the Esterline-Angus chart recorder in it's own suitcase that goes with that recorded. Geo ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@... <mailto:nickjandrews@...>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin. Here's some of what followed me home. On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 1:26 PM <GEOelectronics@... <mailto:GEOelectronics@...>> wrote: Yikes, Logans are classic, lathes too-sweet but dangerous. Geo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Nick Andrews" <nickjandrews@... <mailto:nickjandrews@...>> *To: *[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> *Sent: *Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:37:25 PM *Subject: *Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin. Yes, welcome!? And to add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology... On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:53 AM <GEOelectronics@... <mailto:GEOelectronics@...>> wrote: Hi Justin and welcome to our small but intense group of XRF'ers. Also noticed you joined GammaSpectrometryGroup. We try to keep XRF Group centered on advanced XRF topics (SDD, SI-PIN, CdTe, CZT detectors, NIM etc), and GammaSpectrometry for everything else having to do with advanced Gamma Spec work. For general radiation, detection thereof,? and all things THEREMINO, use the GammaSpectroscopy? (not GammaSPectrometry) group. George Dowell "Geo" PS many of us on all these groups are also Ham Radio enthusiasts. Geo>K0FF
No rings,? necklaces,? long sleeves,? gloves,? or loose clothing near the machines.? That's a pretty bad one.? He'd probably done that a thousand times before.?
I have several more of those ancient rack units,? Scientific Atlanta stuff from an old satellite tracking station that was at NMSU/PSL.? Among other things. Hard to believe,? I know...
Good to know we have a member who can cut keyways and slots!
And I have the Esterline-Angus chart recorder in it's own suitcase that goes with that recorded.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin.
Yikes, Logans are classic, lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
From: "Nick Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin.
Yes, welcome!? And to add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
Hi Justin and welcome to our small but intense group of XRF'ers. Also noticed you joined GammaSpectrometryGroup.
We try to keep XRF Group centered on advanced XRF topics (SDD, SI-PIN, CdTe, CZT detectors, NIM etc), and GammaSpectrometry for everything else having to do with advanced Gamma Spec work.?
For general radiation, detection thereof,? and all things THEREMINO, use the GammaSpectroscopy? (not GammaSPectrometry) group.
George Dowell "Geo"
PS many of us on all these groups are also Ham Radio enthusiasts.
Thanks for the links The
Open Raman is the best technical DIY one I¡¯ve been following but he uses rather
expensive open beam Thorlabs parts ($3,000) where I want to use fiber. ?http://www.thepulsar.be/article/openraman-starter-edition/
I have a B&W 473nm Raman
laser and spectrometer but no software and for mineral work it¡¯ll have a lot of
fluorescence.
I run Ocean Optics and
Stellarnet spectrometers with both their factory software and Spectragryph for
optical reflectance and LIBS and Spectragryph for XRF and gamma spec. I was
planning on using one of those for the Raman but finding a single mode laser
cheap enough is a problem not to mention the dichroic and edge filter. However it
is in the bucket list.
RE: Raman spectroscopy - Certainly, I'll post something in it's own thread when
I get everything working. ?
In the meantime, here are a few things I've found:
Typically Raman and cheap do not go together -
much to my chagrin
I got started by looking at this project:?
I have also followed this project quite a
bit:?
He has a blog that gives more detail, especially
on his attempts to get a working CCD:?
I originally wanted to try to build the whole
thing from scratch - then I got impatient and realized I was going to need
a metal mill and/or drill press if I was going to fabricate everything
including the kinematic mounts - so instead I decided to modify an
existing microscope and hack together a makeshift spectrometer from Ocean
Optics surplus parts
Ocean Optics seem to be the Amptek of the
UV-VIS-NIR world and their products are widely supported by 3rd party
software, such as Spectagryph, which is appealing:
Probably the best implementation out there is the
Open Raman Project
The key (read: expensive) parts are:
Good dichroic mirror and band-block filter -
There used to be an Ebay store that sold a ton of surplus filters
(production overruns) from Omega Filters ()
but it looks like Omega was just acquired and the eBay store doesn't have
the thousands of filters that were there just a few months ago
Powerful, Monochromatic Laser - I use a lower
end JDS Uniphase laser, but it's a bit weak. Their higher end Coherent
Compass laser are more powerful with a more monochromatic beam - but not
cheap
Osram seems to be producing green LEDs that are
single mode and display a very monochromatic beam and they are cheap.
But, they typically come in at 510 or 520nm, whereas the traditional
lasers were 532nm because they were frequency doubled 1064nm IR lasers.
A lot of surplus optics out there are catered to the 532nm laser - e.g.
540nm cut off, which you wouldn't want for a 510nm laser
The problems I have had are:
properly launching the Raman output from the
microscope into a fiber - I just got some fiber collimators that I'll
experiment with
too much noise in the spectrometer at long integration
times - this means that I either need a more powerful laser or TEC
cooling of the CCD sensor or both
Thunder Optics is one of the cheaper turnkey
solutions but they are still not cheap
My favorite YouTube channel "Applied
Science" did an episode on a quick down and dirty Raman system that
shows cheap proof of concept:?
RE: Raman spectroscopy - Certainly, I'll post something in it's own thread when I get everything working. ?
In the meantime, here are a few things I've found:
Typically Raman and cheap do not go together - much to my chagrin
I got started by looking at this project:?
I have also followed this project quite a bit:?
He has a blog that gives more detail, especially on his attempts to get a working CCD:?
I originally wanted to try to build the whole thing from scratch - then I got impatient and realized I was going to need a metal mill and/or drill press if I was going to fabricate everything including the kinematic mounts - so instead I decided to modify an existing microscope and hack together a makeshift spectrometer from Ocean Optics surplus parts
Ocean Optics seem to be the Amptek of the UV-VIS-NIR world and their products are widely supported by 3rd party software, such as Spectagryph, which is appealing:
Probably the best implementation out there is the Open Raman Project
The key (read: expensive) parts are:
Good dichroic mirror and band-block filter - There used to be an Ebay store that sold a ton of surplus filters (production overruns) from Omega Filters () but it looks like Omega was just acquired and the eBay store doesn't have the thousands of filters that were there just a few months ago
Powerful, Monochromatic Laser - I use a lower end JDS Uniphase laser, but it's a bit weak. Their higher end Coherent Compass laser are more powerful with a more monochromatic beam - but not cheap
Osram seems to be producing green LEDs that are single mode and display a very monochromatic beam and they are cheap. But, they typically come in at 510 or 520nm, whereas the traditional lasers were 532nm because they were frequency doubled 1064nm IR lasers. A lot of surplus optics out there are catered to the 532nm laser - e.g. 540nm cut off, which you wouldn't want for a 510nm laser
The problems I have had are:
properly launching the Raman output from the microscope into a fiber - I just got some fiber collimators that I'll experiment with
too much noise in the spectrometer at long integration times - this means that I either need a more powerful laser or TEC cooling of the CCD sensor or both
Thunder Optics is one of the cheaper turnkey solutions but they are still not cheap
My favorite YouTube channel "Applied Science" did an episode on a quick down and dirty Raman system that shows cheap proof of concept:?
----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin.
Yikes, Logans are classic, lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
From: "Nick Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin.
Yes, welcome!? And to add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
Hi Justin and welcome to our small but intense group of XRF'ers. Also noticed you joined GammaSpectrometryGroup.
We try to keep XRF Group centered on advanced XRF topics (SDD, SI-PIN, CdTe, CZT detectors, NIM etc), and GammaSpectrometry for everything else having to do with advanced Gamma Spec work.?
For general radiation, detection thereof,? and all things THEREMINO, use the GammaSpectroscopy? (not GammaSPectrometry) group.
George Dowell "Geo"
PS many of us on all these groups are also Ham Radio enthusiasts.
Hi Soren Welcome to this group Here is file comparing xrf detectors With fine tuning of Si Pin with long count rates,gains ,peaking time ,geometry and proper sampling techniques one can go beyond some of the manufacturer¡¯s limitations. Taray
Hi Scott. Maybe sometime you can share a few pictures of the reds here, top and bottom. The big green one I've been working with - on the bottom instead of sand is a bed of tektites consisting of many beads, a few connected dumbells and some tiny beads melted into the surface of bigger beads, then a layer really clear, shiny? green melt glass then topped with dusty green melt glass.?
Do you have any with black on the bottom? We've read that the paved roads pretty much survived the blast, and I think the black on the bottom instead of sand is melt glass that fell onto the macadam roads.
Hi Did and others.? I'll try to find a public link to the video. I tried to dissect the html source of the Facebook link to the video, but didn't have any success.? I'll keep trying to find a public link.
I
wanted to weigh in on this thread about machine shops, lathes, etc.? As a
farm kid who grew up around shop equipment and exposed PTO (power take off)
shafts on tractors, I gained a lot of respect for moving equipment.?
?
I¡¯m
not sure if this posted link will work for the rest of the group, but I thought
it worth sharing as it is relevant to the discussion.? I just got this
from an old high school buddy back in the farm country of Nebraska, although
given the clothing in the video, I suspect it was likely in an oil field in the
hinterlands of somewhere north.
?
??
***WARNING*** !!? Graphic Content!!? As gruesome as this video is, I
think it should be shown as required training in every machine shop, and even
every high school shop class as to what damage an operating machine can
produce.
?
?
Sorry
if this upsets anyone, but it is a somber reminder of the power of equipment
designed to easily cut and machine big metal parts.? A human body is a
trifle to these machines.
Yikes, Logans are classic,
lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
?
From: "Nick
Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020
12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new
member Justin.
?
Yes, welcome!? And to
add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like
vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are
wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when
visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
Thanks. I'm a wannabe wannabe machinist. Right now, a wannabe welder - next
year a wannabe machinist. Nice to hear that people are into HAM radio. Being a
young person, I come from the SDR world of GNUradio, HackRF, and RTLSDR.?
I like to build/repair analytical equipment - especially vintage stuff that is
actually made of discrete components (and which was made before I was born).
I'm currently retrofitting an old Zeiss (West Germany) microscope with the
optics to do some Raman Spectroscopy. The amazing thing about it is that, every
single part screws together - nothing is welded - everything comes apart - it
was meant to be repaired.
Link didn't work for me either.? Somewhere, I have a picture from eastern Europe where a fellow got pulled into a large lathe turning what looks like a 12" diameter object.? You can identify one of the eyeballs in the mess.? Not pretty.
I
wanted to weigh in on this thread about machine shops, lathes, etc.? As a
farm kid who grew up around shop equipment and exposed PTO (power take off)
shafts on tractors, I gained a lot of respect for moving equipment.?
?
I¡¯m
not sure if this posted link will work for the rest of the group, but I thought
it worth sharing as it is relevant to the discussion.? I just got this
from an old high school buddy back in the farm country of Nebraska, although
given the clothing in the video, I suspect it was likely in an oil field in the
hinterlands of somewhere north.
?
??
***WARNING*** !!? Graphic Content!!? As gruesome as this video is, I
think it should be shown as required training in every machine shop, and even
every high school shop class as to what damage an operating machine can
produce.
?
?
Sorry
if this upsets anyone, but it is a somber reminder of the power of equipment
designed to easily cut and machine big metal parts.? A human body is a
trifle to these machines.
Yikes, Logans are classic,
lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
?
From: "Nick
Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020
12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new
member Justin.
?
Yes, welcome!? And to
add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like
vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are
wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when
visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
I
wanted to weigh in on this thread about machine shops, lathes, etc.? As a
farm kid who grew up around shop equipment and exposed PTO (power take off)
shafts on tractors, I gained a lot of respect for moving equipment.?
?
I¡¯m
not sure if this posted link will work for the rest of the group, but I thought
it worth sharing as it is relevant to the discussion.? I just got this
from an old high school buddy back in the farm country of Nebraska, although
given the clothing in the video, I suspect it was likely in an oil field in the
hinterlands of somewhere north.
?
??
***WARNING*** !!? Graphic Content!!? As gruesome as this video is, I
think it should be shown as required training in every machine shop, and even
every high school shop class as to what damage an operating machine can
produce.
?
?
Sorry
if this upsets anyone, but it is a somber reminder of the power of equipment
designed to easily cut and machine big metal parts.? A human body is a
trifle to these machines.
Yikes, Logans are classic,
lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
?
From: "Nick
Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020
12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new
member Justin.
?
Yes, welcome!? And to
add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like
vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are
wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when
visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
Big fun part of an old spectrometer.? I dismantled two of them.? ?One was this vacuum tube for the rf generator,? the other is solid state.? The main power supplies are crazy heavy.?
Yikes, Logans are classic, lathes too-sweet but dangerous.
Geo
From: "Nick Andrews" <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:37:25 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin.
Yes, welcome!? And to add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology...
Hi Justin and welcome to our small but intense group of XRF'ers. Also noticed you joined GammaSpectrometryGroup.
We try to keep XRF Group centered on advanced XRF topics (SDD, SI-PIN, CdTe, CZT detectors, NIM etc), and GammaSpectrometry for everything else having to do with advanced Gamma Spec work.?
For general radiation, detection thereof,? and all things THEREMINO, use the GammaSpectroscopy? (not GammaSPectrometry) group.
George Dowell "Geo"
PS many of us on all these groups are also Ham Radio enthusiasts.
Likely not much use to me,? but can't bear to toss some stuff... On Thu, Dec 3, 2020, 1:26 PM <GEOelectronics@... <mailto:GEOelectronics@...>> wrote: Yikes, Logans are classic, lathes too-sweet but dangerous. Geo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From: *"Nick Andrews" <nickjandrews@... <mailto:nickjandrews@...>> *To: *[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> *Sent: *Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:37:25 PM *Subject: *Re: [XRF] Welcome new member Justin. Yes, welcome!? And to add on Geo's statement, many of us are into all sorts of related topics, like vacuum tube tech, high voltage, high energy physics/chemistry, and many are wannabe machinists.? I just bought a 8" Logan metal shaper when visiting my parents.? Talk about semi-obsolete technology... On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:53 AM <GEOelectronics@... <mailto:GEOelectronics@...>> wrote: Hi Justin and welcome to our small but intense group of XRF'ers. Also noticed you joined GammaSpectrometryGroup. We try to keep XRF Group centered on advanced XRF topics (SDD, SI-PIN, CdTe, CZT detectors, NIM etc), and GammaSpectrometry for everything else having to do with advanced Gamma Spec work. For general radiation, detection thereof,? and all things THEREMINO, use the GammaSpectroscopy? (not GammaSPectrometry) group. George Dowell "Geo" PS many of us on all these groups are also Ham Radio enthusiasts. Geo>K0FF
Dave McGuire
Nick Andrews
Michael Sears
SCOTT CAMPBELL
