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FWIW, we were wandering around the antique mall in Fairfield, Maine, which is (unfortunately) not far from our home.? One vendor has two W&G machines and two W&W, along with numerous others.? Curiosity piqued, and we began examining one on a fairly standard table. It's a wreck, rusty, drawers missing, stuff bent and broken, presser foot lifter vanished, looks like a serious barn find.? 1866 with the slab bed, it can be had for $95 with some sweet-talking. The other--and I wish I'd taken more photos--has a SN on the cloth plate indicating 1860.? It's in an odd little table with a bonnet and a slide-in boxy sort of thing that serves as a work surface.? I have questions.? I think I've seen photos of the simple table with the slide-in work surface.? I think it's waisted, but no medallion.? I also think that the feed dog bar is held up by the narrow bracket, not the wider, rectangular one, which would indicate that the machine is not of 1860 vintage, as I think the narrower arrangement was adopted in the later 1860s.? But that was hard to see in that particular environment. It also had some attachments (!!).? I thought I saw a foot that should have had a glass insert but couldn't make out the little groove inside the cut-out that would serve to hold the glass.? Turns out the glass foot didn't show up until 1861...so, maybe the thing is, indeed, of 1860 manufacture. One way to determine the SN would be to find the stamp on the casting.? Do you think, for the life of me, I can remember where those stamps were placed?? It's on one of the upright parts, underneath something else...arrrgh!!...sucks to get old.? Anyway, she's go it listed for $250, and could likely be scooped up for $200 if someone was of the mind to do so.? We're tapped out.? But it's fun to look! Here's a couple of pics of the 1860 machine (the 1866 one ain't much to look at...didn't post it because it might trigger bad barn find memories!) Cheers all!   
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Wow, would I love to find this while wandering around an antique mall in my area. ?? Total eye candy.
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Bruce - almost certain the W&W machine you found dates to ca 1860. Serial number on the cloth plate agrees with Cooper¡¯s info showing 1860. The presser foot shown in the machine without the glass insert is consistent with pre-1861 machines. I haven¡¯t seen a table with the slide-on work surface, but I haven¡¯t seen everything, by any measure! Great price for such an old example! Wish I were closer! Thanks for posting.
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$250 seems very high. What do the rest of you think? Sandra W. Haak Phone (cell) 801-201-5331
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FWIW, we were wandering around the antique mall in Fairfield, Maine, which is (unfortunately) not far from our home.? One vendor has two W&G machines and two W&W, along with numerous others.? Curiosity piqued, and we began examining one on a fairly standard table. It's a wreck, rusty, drawers missing, stuff bent and broken, presser foot lifter vanished, looks like a serious barn find.? 1866 with the slab bed, it can be had for $95 with some sweet-talking.
The other--and I wish I'd taken more photos--has a SN on the cloth plate indicating 1860.? It's in an odd little table with a bonnet and a slide-in boxy sort of thing that serves as a work surface.? I have questions.? I think I've seen photos of the simple table with the slide-in work surface.? I think it's waisted, but no medallion.? I also think that the feed dog bar is held up by the narrow bracket, not the wider, rectangular one, which would indicate that the machine is not of 1860 vintage, as I think the narrower arrangement was adopted in the later 1860s.? But that was hard to see in that particular environment.
It also had some attachments (!!).? I thought I saw a foot that should have had a glass insert but couldn't make out the little groove inside the cut-out that would serve to hold the glass.? Turns out the glass foot didn't show up until 1861...so, maybe the thing is, indeed, of 1860 manufacture.
One way to determine the SN would be to find the stamp on the casting.? Do you think, for the life of me, I can remember where those stamps were placed?? It's on one of the upright parts, underneath something else...arrrgh!!...sucks to get old.?
Anyway, she's go it listed for $250, and could likely be scooped up for $200 if someone was of the mind to do so.? We're tapped out.? But it's fun to look!
Here's a couple of pics of the 1860 machine (the 1866 one ain't much to look at...didn't post it because it might trigger bad barn find memories!)
Cheers all!
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I would pay $250 without much hesitation.? My W&W 3 cost exactly that--plus finding it in my area was an absolute miracle.? (I'm in the "antique sewing machine desert" of western Colorado.) ? ? ?
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Here's the kicker:? 3 bobbins.? I think it's very reasonably priced for a number of reasons.? Granted, it's a #3 (the nasty one is a #1), but it's pre-Civil War, has bobbins and assorted attachments, an uncommon table, the bonnet, the brush, the bobbin clamp, etc.? I'm pretty sure the seller would come down to $200.
I'm trying to figure out which guitar I want to sell....?
On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 6:42?PM Sandra Haak < swhaak@...> wrote: $250 seems very high. What do the rest of you think? Sandra W. Haak Phone (cell) 801-201-5331
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FWIW, we were wandering around the antique mall in Fairfield, Maine, which is (unfortunately) not far from our home.? One vendor has two W&G machines and two W&W, along with numerous others.? Curiosity piqued, and we began examining one on a fairly standard table. It's a wreck, rusty, drawers missing, stuff bent and broken, presser foot lifter vanished, looks like a serious barn find.? 1866 with the slab bed, it can be had for $95 with some sweet-talking.
The other--and I wish I'd taken more photos--has a SN on the cloth plate indicating 1860.? It's in an odd little table with a bonnet and a slide-in boxy sort of thing that serves as a work surface.? I have questions.? I think I've seen photos of the simple table with the slide-in work surface.? I think it's waisted, but no medallion.? I also think that the feed dog bar is held up by the narrow bracket, not the wider, rectangular one, which would indicate that the machine is not of 1860 vintage, as I think the narrower arrangement was adopted in the later 1860s.? But that was hard to see in that particular environment.
It also had some attachments (!!).? I thought I saw a foot that should have had a glass insert but couldn't make out the little groove inside the cut-out that would serve to hold the glass.? Turns out the glass foot didn't show up until 1861...so, maybe the thing is, indeed, of 1860 manufacture.
One way to determine the SN would be to find the stamp on the casting.? Do you think, for the life of me, I can remember where those stamps were placed?? It's on one of the upright parts, underneath something else...arrrgh!!...sucks to get old.?
Anyway, she's go it listed for $250, and could likely be scooped up for $200 if someone was of the mind to do so.? We're tapped out.? But it's fun to look!
Here's a couple of pics of the 1860 machine (the 1866 one ain't much to look at...didn't post it because it might trigger bad barn find memories!)
Cheers all!
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Thanks, John...like I told the others, now I'm trying to figure out which guitar to sell!
On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 6:28?PM John Lowrey via <john_p_lowrey= [email protected]> wrote: Bruce - almost certain the W&W machine you found dates to ca 1860.? Serial number on the cloth plate agrees with Cooper¡¯s info showing 1860.? The presser foot shown in the machine without the glass insert is consistent with pre-1861 machines.? I haven¡¯t seen a table with the slide-on work surface, but I haven¡¯t seen everything, by any measure!? Great price for such an old example! Wish I were closer! Thanks for posting.?
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Well dagnabbit, Luke.? I should exercise more self-control, I suppose. Pulled the trigger, seller dropped the price to $200.? I'm not going to complain about it (ok, well, maybe just a little...she probably would have come down another $10 or so). But I was wrong.? There are 5 bobbins.? There were 9 needles...then two more fell out of the drawer when we put it in the car.? The irons are nothing to write home about, and the decals are so-so.? But it spins easily, and...wait for it...the timing seems correct!? I just struggle with these things when I break them down for cleaning and have to get the timing set.? But it also has the little gizmo for pulling the thread from the bobbins, couple of seam guides, the big wrench (that I have yet to figure out) and a couple of other odds and ends.? The SN stamped on the back pillar matches the cloth plate, so, yup, 1860.? Earliest machine we've ever owned, so we are kind of excited. Now, when I Initially saw that machine, the first thing to enter my mind was that the little wooden cloth plate extension and bonnet were homemade.? Then I waffled, thought I might have seen something like that in an old catalog.? Nope.? Homemade.? The bonnet has very well-made dovetails, something that wasn't available in 1860--they were clearly machine-made.? It has what I thought was a decal on the top, and I figured somebody swiped the bonnet from some other machine.? That may be the case, but inside, on the top, we found a name scrawled in pencil with "Painted in 1899."? The name is hard to make out, and I doubt it's anybody famous. But somebody took the time to hand-paint flowers on the top of the bonnet.??It's these sorts of things that keep me coming back to these dear old creatures. And we thought about getting the grungy W&W #1 sitting all bedraggled in the corner because the irons are in better condition and the decals on the head might be really good underneath all that grunge.? But everything on the machine is pretty much wrecked, or it's frozen with rust, and there are just too many parts missing.? It would end up being a parts rig and we're too far away from anywhere to unload the irons and cabinet.? But if anyone's interested, we could pick it up and hold it. Anyway, here are a couple of pre-de-neglecting pics.? Thanks for all your input! ?     
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Great find.? Very jealous.? I probably would have paid $250 because I'm horrible at negotiating or talking about money at all.? My English ancestry probably.? ?
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Calvin Armerding
Chair, International Sewing Machine Collectors Society
"Bother" said Pooh, as he connected at 14.4kbps
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That gives me a chuckle...I, too, have evolved from a long line of English-persons. I'd rather eat barbed wire than haggle.? BUT...we've been bingeing on "Antiques Road Trip" and seen auctioneers make totally insulting offers on things and they weren't struck by lightning or anything.? The other saving grace was that the seller wasn't in the building, so it was actually the mall owner who was doing the talking.? It's like I wasn't even there!
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I would have paid that if given the chance. But then again, value is whatever someone is willing to pay.?
On Jan 3, 2024 7:10 PM, "Roxy via groups.io" <rgrinnell2010@...> wrote: I would pay $250 without much hesitation.? My W&W 3 cost exactly that--plus finding it in my area was an absolute miracle.? (I'm in the "antique sewing machine desert" of western Colorado.) ? ? ?
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Bruce, we lived in the middle east for a year while I was a child.? That did NOT go well.? Everything is a negotiation and my mother paid waaaay to much for groceries our first week there, until an Arab neighbor took pity and started going shopping with her.? They became good friends and communicated for years so there was an upside.
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Calvin Armerding
Chair, International Sewing Machine Collectors Society
"Bother" said Pooh, as he connected at 14.4kbps
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That's great!? Certainly, making a good friend is worth a little extra on a week's worth of groceries!
Bruce, we lived in the middle east for a year while I was a child.? That did NOT go well.? Everything is a negotiation and my mother paid waaaay to much for groceries our first week there, until an Arab neighbor took pity and started going shopping with her.? They became good friends and communicated for years so there was an upside.
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Calvin Armerding
Chair, International Sewing Machine Collectors Society
"Bother" said Pooh, as he connected at 14.4kbps
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Roxy
LISA A