New Member. Thanks for adding me.
Thanks for adding me to your group. I picked up a Wheeler and Wilson machine last week.? The tag says 1858 but I was told it is a 1867. No badge and it looks like the some of the parts might be silver plated. The cabinet and irons are in great shape. I have been working on cleaning dirty parts and have finally gotten this old sole sewing. I am from Ohio and have a large collection of singer sewing machines. Just really like getting them sewing again.?
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From: Miller Fulks <mmf38@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Wheeler_and_Wilson-Sewing-Machines] Welcome
Robb; No problem at all, that's what we are here for. Feel absolutely free to ask any questions you may have. This should be a great machine, it is in affect a W&W D-9 made under Singer ownership. I have? neither seen nor heard that quality declined under Singer ownership. I highly suspect, though have no knowledge on it, that the same people were still doing the work on building them.
Don't recall if you had joined us when I posted this link to a Smithsonian 1908 Singer/Bridgeport catalog or not. It lists both the 9W1 & 9W7. Handwritten & paste-overs are from 1911.? ?Any way here is the link, quite interesting catalog;
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Miller/TN
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Robb; No problem at all, that's what we are here for. Feel absolutely free to ask any questions you may have. This should be a great machine, it is in affect a W&W D-9 made under Singer ownership. I have? neither seen nor heard that quality declined under Singer ownership. I highly suspect, though have no knowledge on it, that the same people were still doing the work on building them.
Don't recall if you had joined us when I posted this link to a Smithsonian 1908 Singer/Bridgeport catalog or not. It lists both the 9W1 & 9W7. Handwritten & paste-overs are from 1911.? ?Any way here is the link, quite interesting catalog;
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Miller/TN
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wouldnt surprise me - as I am discovering - when taking apart to clean everything extensively - all singer part numbers - all internal parts.? Just nothing on the outside.? - I think its kinda cool!
Ty for your info
On Thursday, March 8, 2018, 9:10:17 PM MST, Miller Fulks <mmf38@...> wrote:
Sorry to be so long getting back on this. Remember when Singer took possession of W&W there would have been many machine in production, from some just starting to others near completion. There would be little doubt in my mind that some number were in fact completed & awaiting shipment. No doubt there would have been some number with serial numbers already applied & others with some parts already completed. Thus the "Part Numbers"? should not be considered universally applied. I am however until proved otherwise thoroughly convinced that any SN starting with a 3 was built under Singer ownership. Miller/TN
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Sorry to be so long getting back on this. Remember when Singer took possession of W&W there would have been many machine in production, from some just starting to others near completion. There would be little doubt in my mind that some number were in fact completed & awaiting shipment. No doubt there would have been some number with serial numbers already applied & others with some parts already completed. Thus the "Part Numbers"? should not be considered universally applied. I am however until proved otherwise thoroughly convinced that any SN starting with a 3 was built under Singer ownership. Miller/TN
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Thanks for the information - I just re-checked the part #'s listed all over the machine and they show typical singer numbers.? On the needle plate it says 202097 on the Bobbin thread holder it says: 202069,? on the thread tensioner on the front it says 20208, on the thread cutter it says: 202095,? the bobbin shuttle says 202063, outer ring that holds the bobbin shuttle says 202054 - so this machine may say Wheeler & Wilson - but its Singer!
Im looking forward to more homework - I love research!
Robb
On Monday, March 5, 2018, 2:29:29 PM MST, Angela <angelaspencer5@...> wrote:
Sorry to horn in, but my D-9 also has a serial number that starts with a three--3082422. The only number I see on the needle plate other than the numbers directly beneath the lines is a 9-2. But you're saying
that would be a six digit number if it was a Singer part number?
Angela
Robb;
My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between
1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines
were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer
buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to
the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers.
Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Sorry to horn in, but my D-9 also has a serial number that starts with a three--3082422. The only number I see on the needle plate other than the numbers directly beneath the lines is a 9-2. But you're saying
that would be a six digit number if it was a Singer part number?
Angela
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Robb;
My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between
1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines
were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer
buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to
the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers.
Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Robb; My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between 1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers. Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
Miller:
Thanks for these, they were quite interesting.
I think I have worked out how the glass-insert presser feet changed over time.? It looks like there were two configurations, a first that used a longer, heavier presser foot, with glass inserts that have the needle hole offset, and a second, shorter, lighter presser foot that used glass inserts with the holes centered.?
The two presser feet are specific to the their own frogs (part 17) - the side projections on the earlier presser foot are thicker and do not fit into the frog from the later machine.? Also, there appears to be quite a bit of changed geometry going on in the later machines overall - when I install the earlier (frog)-(presser foot)-(insert) assembly onto the?later machine, the needle hole lines up about 2-3 mm too close to the near side of the machine, exactly the opposite of what one would expect from the offset needle hole in the insert.? So at least some of the parts in the rest of the later machine must also be somewhat different from those of the earlier one.
In respect of the glass, inserts, this means that there probably were at least eight (8) different inserts that were used over time in the nos. 1-3 machines: 4 in the earlier version, and 4 in the later.
I have put together the beginnings of a spreadsheet that sets out the nos. 1-3 machines whose specifics I have been able to identify.? All the machines from serial nos. 195,634 to 438,664 use the longer foot and offset glass, while all the machines from 651,408 onward use the shorter foot and centered glass.? So it seems this was part of a larger set of design changes to the nos. 1-3 configuration that occurred about 5xx,xxx, and which is not reflected in the available parts listings.
Carl
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
Carl; I have simply not measured all those dimensions on mine s cannot say what they are. If this link works you might find this "Ladies Almanac" interesting, published 1867 & includes catalog listings.
?Note the models #'s are related to the machine's finish, not the actual configuration.? A #4 is lsted as for "Heavy Duty Use Only". I have as yet to determine exactly what this #4 model is. I am familiar with; Low Wide Bed; Low Narrow Bed & High Bed but ll seem to be for essentially the same Duty of use.?
The later Singer 1W1, which was the High Bed machine, was listed for light weight articles, but capable of up to 1600 stitches per minute. I simply?cannot imagine that vibrating needle arm going that fast.
There is a 1908 Singer/Bridgeport catalog which is also interesting here; Miller/TN
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 5:48 PM, Carl <rcarl.moy@...> wrote:
Thanks you guys for getting back to me.? I suspect there is something fairly complicated going on here.? I have two machines that I think are both no.3s: a first that I found in an antique store in rural IL, about 1873 as I recall (I don't have the serial no. handy right now); and a second, bought for parts, serial no. 651,408.? I have removed and cleaned up the presser-and-piston (part 24) from each.? They are not the same.? The piston portions are identical, but on the first machine, the presser foot extends downward 0.525", the total length of the foot is 1.425", and the interior width of the glass opening is 0.420".? On serial no. 651,408, the dimensions are 0.450", 1.230", and 0.420", respectively.? So the parts are clearly not interchangeable, even though it looks like the same glass insert would fit into each.? And it seems that each would require its own, different glass insert - at least each with the needle hole drilled in a different place.?
As additional observations, the two pressers appear to have close to the same distal (toward the back of the machine) offset from the center line of the piston, though in the one from the first machine it may be a bit larger. They seem to have identical patent markings stamped into them.? The difference you can see with the naked eye most quickly is that the hole-and-slot for the insert-removing tool is much longer on the part from the first machine than the one from serial no. 651,408.? The total length is 0.210" on the first part, but only 0.110" on the second - on the second part the length of the slot is just about equal to the diameter of the hole, but on the other it is clearly longer.
I am wondering if these differences are changes in the factory design over time, or whether they may reflect that some W&W curved needle machines on sale on sale at the same time were somewhat more robust than others, as is sometimes asserted.
Carl
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
Thanks you guys for getting back to me.? I suspect there is something fairly complicated going on here.? I have two machines that I think are both no.3s: a first that I found in an antique store in rural IL, about 1873 as I recall (I don't have the serial no. handy right now); and a second, bought for parts, serial no. 651,408.? I have removed and cleaned up the presser-and-piston (part 24) from each.? They are not the same.? The piston portions are identical, but on the first machine, the presser foot extends downward 0.525", the total length of the foot is 1.425", and the interior width of the glass opening is 0.420".? On serial no. 651,408, the dimensions are 0.450", 1.230", and 0.420", respectively.? So the parts are clearly not interchangeable, even though it looks like the same glass insert would fit into each.? And it seems that each would require its own, different glass insert - at least each with the needle hole drilled in a different place.?
As additional observations, the two pressers appear to have close to the same distal (toward the back of the machine) offset from the center line of the piston, though in the one from the first machine it may be a bit larger. They seem to have identical patent markings stamped into them.? The difference you can see with the naked eye most quickly is that the hole-and-slot for the insert-removing tool is much longer on the part from the first machine than the one from serial no. 651,408.? The total length is 0.210" on the first part, but only 0.110" on the second - on the second part the length of the slot is just about equal to the diameter of the hole, but on the other it is clearly longer.
I am wondering if these differences are changes in the factory design over time, or whether they may reflect that some W&W curved needle machines on sale on sale at the same time were somewhat more robust than others, as is sometimes asserted.
Carl
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
There were both offset & centered. My 1860 #1 is offset.? To the best of my memory an 1872 #3 is centered. The needle itself did not change, there was only the one needle offered for all the curved needle machines. Id did of course come in various sizes & likely some different point configurations, but they all had the same radius to the curve & were interchangeable on any of the machines.?
I have not really checked to see just what change was made to ring the needle hole to the center, perhaps it was all in the throat/needle plate. Miller/TN
On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 3:47 PM, William L Vanderburg <Army30th@...> wrote:
I am about to make up a set of CAD drawings for the glass presser foot of my no.3.? I notice that the needle hole in it is offset, i.e., it does not lie on the lateral center line of the insert. Rather, it is closer to the far edge. Yet I see in some images of other nos.1-3 that the needle hole appears to be centered.? Am I correct on this?? Did the location of the needle hole, and therefore I presume the needle itself, change over time?? Do we have any information as to when that change took place?? Thanks for any help.
Carl
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
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I am about to make up a set of CAD drawings for the glass presser foot of my no.3.? I notice that the needle hole in it is offset, i.e., it does not lie on the lateral center line of the insert. Rather, it is closer to the far edge. Yet I see in some images of other nos.1-3 that the needle hole appears to be centered.? Am I correct on this?? Did the location of the needle hole, and therefore I presume the needle itself, change over time?? Do we have any information as to when that change took place?? Thanks for any help.
Carl
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Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
I am about to make up a set of CAD drawings for the glass presser foot of my no.3.? I notice that the needle hole in it is offset, i.e., it does not lie on the lateral center line of the insert. Rather, it is closer to the far edge. Yet I see in some images of other nos.1-3 that the needle hole appears to be centered.? Am I correct on this?? Did the location of the needle hole, and therefore I presume the needle itself, change over time?? Do we have any information as to when that change took place?? Thanks for any help.
Carl
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The Wheeler and Wilson Facebook group is at this link:?
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Any and all enthusiasts are welcome.? This event will be open to the public.?
That is our Yahoo page with info.? There is also a Facebook page, but, I can't help you with it, since I'm not on Facebook.?
Cheryl in Illinois
On February 20, 2018 at 2:33 AM D Page <D7artist@...> wrote:
Pardon me for intruding, but Ava is only an hour from my home. Would another enthusiast be welcome at that TOGA gathering?
Thanks, Dennis
On Thursday, February 15, 2018, Miller Fulks < mmf38@...> wrote:
Welcome Shirley;
The D-9 was introduced in 1895 & is found with 7-digit serial numbers no less than 2,2xx,xxx but less than 3,xxx,xxx. The earlier #9 will have serial numbers having 6 digits or less.? Singer bought W&W in 1905 & continued to assemble the D-9
machines until around 1908 but with serial numbers beginning with a 3. These were cataloged as a? W91. In 1908 they introduced the Singer W97 which was still essentially the D-9 but now wore Singer Decals & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets.
I love all of my W&W machines from the curved needle models through the Singer 9W7, can't really say I have a favorite. One feature I do like on the #8 is its two speed capability, one of very few family treadle machines which have this feature.
Be sure & look over the files section of this forum, much good info is there. Do feel free to ask any specific questions which you might have, that's what we are here for. The D-9 will take a 126x1 needle which has not been made in some time
so you are for the most part limited to old stock. In the Boye tubes #18 is the proper one.
Miller/TN
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Any and all enthusiasts are welcome.? This event will be open to the public.?
That is our Yahoo page with info.? There is also a Facebook page, but, I can't help you with it, since I'm not on Facebook.?
Cheryl in Illinois
On February 20, 2018 at 2:33 AM D Page <D7artist@...> wrote:
Pardon me for intruding, but Ava is only an hour from my home. Would another enthusiast be welcome at that TOGA gathering?Thanks, Dennis
On Thursday, February 15, 2018, Miller Fulks < mmf38@...> wrote: Welcome Shirley; The D-9 was introduced in 1895 & is found with 7-digit serial numbers no less than 2,2xx,xxx but less than 3,xxx,xxx. The earlier #9 will have serial numbers having 6 digits or less.? Singer bought W&W in 1905 & continued to assemble the D-9 machines until around 1908 but with serial numbers beginning with a 3. These were cataloged as a? W91. In 1908 they introduced the Singer W97 which was still essentially the D-9 but now wore Singer Decals & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets.
I love all of my W&W machines from the curved needle models through the Singer 9W7, can't really say I have a favorite. One feature I do like on the #8 is its two speed capability, one of very few family treadle machines which have this feature.
Be sure & look over the files section of this forum, much good info is there. Do feel free to ask any specific questions which you might have, that's what we are here for. The D-9 will take a 126x1 needle which has not been made in some time so you are for the most part limited to old stock. In the Boye tubes #18 is the proper one. Miller/TN ?
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Pardon me for intruding, but Ava is only an hour from my home. Would another enthusiast be welcome at that TOGA gathering? Thanks, Dennis
On Thursday, February 15, 2018, Miller Fulks < mmf38@...> wrote: Welcome Shirley; The D-9 was introduced in 1895 & is found with 7-digit serial numbers no less than 2,2xx,xxx but less than 3,xxx,xxx. The earlier #9 will have serial numbers having 6 digits or less.? Singer bought W&W in 1905 & continued to assemble the D-9 machines until around 1908 but with serial numbers beginning with a 3. These were cataloged as a? W91. In 1908 they introduced the Singer W97 which was still essentially the D-9 but now wore Singer Decals & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets.
I love all of my W&W machines from the curved needle models through the Singer 9W7, can't really say I have a favorite. One feature I do like on the #8 is its two speed capability, one of very few family treadle machines which have this feature.
Be sure & look over the files section of this forum, much good info is there. Do feel free to ask any specific questions which you might have, that's what we are here for. The D-9 will take a 126x1 needle which has not been made in some time so you are for the most part limited to old stock. In the Boye tubes #18 is the proper one. Miller/TN
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I truly appreciate all the information! We will see if we can arrange schedules to attend.i got my D9 back together and started treadling today! Tweaking adjustments on tension but she feels great and strong!
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On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:54 AM, Miller Fulks < mmf38@...> wrote:
Shirley; A while off yet but our TN/TOGA is held in Winchester TN each year about the first weekend of Aug (Thu-Sat). It is hosted by Diane Lowe (Di) who is a member here as well as TreadleOn, A most Gracious host I might add.?
If you could at all make it we would love to have you. We normally have folks from at least 6 states in attendance.? Lots of nice machines to look at, with some for sale. Normally have some sort of class on sewing & also some type of machine repair.?
Plenty of snacks to munch on, a fun time is had by all. If you have a "Problem" machine feel free to bring it. Myself & a couple of others between us can usually diagnose the problem & get it sewing again. Miller/TN
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Shirley; A while off yet but our TN/TOGA is held in Winchester TN each year about the first weekend of Aug (Thu-Sat). It is hosted by Diane Lowe (Di) who is a member here as well as TreadleOn, A most Gracious host I might add.?
If you could at all make it we would love to have you. We normally have folks from at least 6 states in attendance.? Lots of nice machines to look at, with some for sale. Normally have some sort of class on sewing & also some type of machine repair.?
Plenty of snacks to munch on, a fun time is had by all. If you have a "Problem" machine feel free to bring it. Myself & a couple of others between us can usually diagnose the problem & get it sewing again. Miller/TN
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Angela
Janice D Green
Cheryl