Hello, ? So I read the first email¡? I am Robert Collins... here in Houston Texas.? I have an 1879 (or thereabouts) model 8 on a treadle table.? I will probably do a full blown restoration on this machine¡ paint, gilding, plating, wood, iron, the works. ? If anyone would like to see some of my other restorations, see the photo albums on this Facebook page: ? ? I am an Engineer by day¡ an obsessive idiot by night (and day¡ yeah). ? ISSUE 1 ¨C I need to find really good photos of the painted artwork on this machine. ? ISSUE 2 ¨C I will fabricate a new plate¡ the one that slides over the bobbin¡ if anyone else needs one let me know¡ I have access to very fancy tools¡ another plate will take a few minutes to cut and fold ? ISSUE 3 ¨C My treadle is missing the bobbin winder that is mounted on the right side iron.? Anybody have one?? Would anyone loan me theirs (so I could make a drawing and duplicate it)?? If I did make duplicate bobbin winders, would anybody else want one? ? Cheers, ? Rob ?
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Re: Wheeler and Wilspn #6 Manual and request for help.
Hi Lyanne: Sorry but I am unable ton help you much on the #6 as I have never had any experience with one. This machine was made in three versions, the #6 flat bed, #6 Cylinder bed (Free arm) & #7 which was reversed from the #6. They used a straight need, same as the #8. In fact Singer cataloged this needle as the 6N1. They were a heavy duty machine for sewing leather & for other heavy duty use. The cylinder bed was primarily a cobblers machine & could be had with either an underfeed or needle feed which could be rotated similar to the Singer 29.? I don't truly know what would be considered as W&W's "Best". At the point in time the #6 was made it was their heaviest duty machine. It was of course super-ceded in later years by heavier machines.??
Incidentally W&W made a #9 & a D-9 & Singer made the 9W. To the best of my knowledge there never was a W9.? Miller/TN
On Monday, March 19, 2018 2:55 PM, lyanne ornstein <lyanneornstein@...> wrote:
I am hoping someone has joined the group who might have knowledge of the Singer #6. I know they were not considered Wheeler & Wilson's best and even though I also have a #8 and a W9 treadles I would still like to get it going. It is a left handed machine with a very nice set of attachments. I do not believe the coffin top is original. The iron treadle has a double pulley.?
Thanks
Lyanne
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Wheeler and Wilspn #6 Manual and request for help.
I am hoping someone has joined the group who might have knowledge of the Singer #6. I know they were not considered Wheeler & Wilson's best and even though I also have a #8 and a W9 treadles I would still like to get it going. It is a left handed machine with a very nice set of attachments. I do not believe the coffin top is original. The iron treadle has a double pulley.?
Thanks
Lyanne
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Re: New Member. Thanks for adding me.
I added pictures under photos.? Beck's 1860 machine.
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Miller - many thanks for the information. That¡¯s the best explanation of the difference of the early Ws I have ever seen. Mine would be a #3. ?Jan
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Re: New Member. Thanks for adding me.
Great find!? Welcome to the group. Would love to see pics.??
On Mar 17, 2018 4:58 PM, "Beka via Groups.Io" <lovearizona03= [email protected]> wrote: Thanks again for the add. I had no clue what I was dealing with here. They are very simple machines compared to the new ones. Or should I say newer ones. Yes it is the curved needle machine. The serial number is 304221 and also in the half treadle cabinet. Would love to get an approximant date. Love the Smithsonian site. Very interesting.
?
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Hi J D; A number 3 should be a curved needle machine with painted parts. Serial 602,515 would date to about 1871. A #1 has silver plated parts & a #2 had bronze plated parts. So far I have never seen a #2. You are fortunate to have a hand crank #8. These were made mostly for export so ones that turn up have usually been "Re-Imported" & usually sell for a rather high price. The #8 is a very nice machine, mine is in a treadle & I like it very much. Look at my resent reply to Beka & you can open the link to the 1866 Ladies Almanac from the Smithsonian. It is rather interesting & has catalog listings throughout.? Miller/TN
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 1:02 PM, jpwest1951 via Groups.Io <jpwest1951@...> wrote:
I'm JPWest from Wichita. ?I have (I think) a No. 3, 1876 W&W treadle, serial 602515. ?And, I just acquired a No. 8 hand crank that I think is about 1885, although the last patent date is Aug 24 1878. ?The date on the bobbin holder is 1880. I'm glad to have found this group of experts - I have yet to get either machine to sew very well, but as the summer progresses, great hopes arise!
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Re: New Member. Thanks for adding me.
Thanks again for the add. I had no clue what I was dealing with here. They are very simple machines compared to the new ones. Or should I say newer ones. Yes it is the curved needle machine. The serial number is 304221 and also in the half treadle cabinet. Would love to get an approximant date. Love the Smithsonian site. Very interesting.
?
?
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I'm JPWest from Wichita. ?I have (I think) a No. 3, 1876 W&W treadle, serial 602515. ?And, I just acquired a No. 8 hand crank that I think is about 1885, although the last patent date is Aug 24 1878. ?The date on the bobbin holder is 1880. I'm glad to have found this group of experts - I have yet to get either machine to sew very well, but as the summer progresses, great hopes arise!
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Re: New Member. Thanks for adding me.
Beka; Welcome to the group. I assume this is one of the curved needle machines. Very interesting machines. I have one of these in the half case treadle cabinet which was made in 1872. I also have acquired a head only from 1860 but as this one has the wide bed & the treadle is for the narrow bed the early head does not fit the treadle.?
There is a serial number listing on these which was worked up by the late Grace Rogers Cooper, former curator at the Smithsonian. She used the number of licenses sold through the "Sewing Machine Combination" to derive it. It is thus not guaranteed 100% accurate but is very close.? I have a copy of these numbers so if you would like to post your serial? number would be happy to look up her date. There is a copy of an 1866 "Ladies Almanac" published by W&W which also includes a catalog dispersed throughout its pages, you might find interesting on the Smithsonian site. It is available Here;?
?
Miller/TN
On Friday, March 16, 2018 9:05 PM, Beka via Groups.Io <lovearizona03@...> wrote:
Thanks for adding me to your group. I picked up a Wheeler and Wilson machine last week.? The tag says 1858 but I was told it is a 1867. No badge and it looks like the some of the parts might be silver plated. The cabinet and irons are in great shape. I have been working on cleaning dirty parts and have finally gotten this old sole sewing. I am from Ohio and have a large collection of singer sewing machines. Just really like getting them sewing again.?
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New Member. Thanks for adding me.
Thanks for adding me to your group. I picked up a Wheeler and Wilson machine last week.? The tag says 1858 but I was told it is a 1867. No badge and it looks like the some of the parts might be silver plated. The cabinet and irons are in great shape. I have been working on cleaning dirty parts and have finally gotten this old sole sewing. I am from Ohio and have a large collection of singer sewing machines. Just really like getting them sewing again.?
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From: Miller Fulks <mmf38@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Wheeler_and_Wilson-Sewing-Machines] Welcome
Robb; No problem at all, that's what we are here for. Feel absolutely free to ask any questions you may have. This should be a great machine, it is in affect a W&W D-9 made under Singer ownership. I have? neither seen nor heard that quality declined under Singer ownership. I highly suspect, though have no knowledge on it, that the same people were still doing the work on building them.
Don't recall if you had joined us when I posted this link to a Smithsonian 1908 Singer/Bridgeport catalog or not. It lists both the 9W1 & 9W7. Handwritten & paste-overs are from 1911.? ?Any way here is the link, quite interesting catalog;
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Miller/TN
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Robb; No problem at all, that's what we are here for. Feel absolutely free to ask any questions you may have. This should be a great machine, it is in affect a W&W D-9 made under Singer ownership. I have? neither seen nor heard that quality declined under Singer ownership. I highly suspect, though have no knowledge on it, that the same people were still doing the work on building them.
Don't recall if you had joined us when I posted this link to a Smithsonian 1908 Singer/Bridgeport catalog or not. It lists both the 9W1 & 9W7. Handwritten & paste-overs are from 1911.? ?Any way here is the link, quite interesting catalog;
?
Miller/TN
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wouldnt surprise me - as I am discovering - when taking apart to clean everything extensively - all singer part numbers - all internal parts.? Just nothing on the outside.? - I think its kinda cool!
Ty for your info
On Thursday, March 8, 2018, 9:10:17 PM MST, Miller Fulks <mmf38@...> wrote:
Sorry to be so long getting back on this. Remember when Singer took possession of W&W there would have been many machine in production, from some just starting to others near completion. There would be little doubt in my mind that some number were in fact completed & awaiting shipment. No doubt there would have been some number with serial numbers already applied & others with some parts already completed. Thus the "Part Numbers"? should not be considered universally applied. I am however until proved otherwise thoroughly convinced that any SN starting with a 3 was built under Singer ownership. Miller/TN
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Sorry to be so long getting back on this. Remember when Singer took possession of W&W there would have been many machine in production, from some just starting to others near completion. There would be little doubt in my mind that some number were in fact completed & awaiting shipment. No doubt there would have been some number with serial numbers already applied & others with some parts already completed. Thus the "Part Numbers"? should not be considered universally applied. I am however until proved otherwise thoroughly convinced that any SN starting with a 3 was built under Singer ownership. Miller/TN
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Thanks for the information - I just re-checked the part #'s listed all over the machine and they show typical singer numbers.? On the needle plate it says 202097 on the Bobbin thread holder it says: 202069,? on the thread tensioner on the front it says 20208, on the thread cutter it says: 202095,? the bobbin shuttle says 202063, outer ring that holds the bobbin shuttle says 202054 - so this machine may say Wheeler & Wilson - but its Singer!
Im looking forward to more homework - I love research!
Robb
On Monday, March 5, 2018, 2:29:29 PM MST, Angela <angelaspencer5@...> wrote:
Sorry to horn in, but my D-9 also has a serial number that starts with a three--3082422. The only number I see on the needle plate other than the numbers directly beneath the lines is a 9-2. But you're saying
that would be a six digit number if it was a Singer part number?
Angela
Robb;
My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between
1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines
were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer
buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to
the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers.
Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Sorry to horn in, but my D-9 also has a serial number that starts with a three--3082422. The only number I see on the needle plate other than the numbers directly beneath the lines is a 9-2. But you're saying
that would be a six digit number if it was a Singer part number?
Angela
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Show quoted text
Robb;
My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between
1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines
were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer
buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to
the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers.
Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Robb; My personal belief is that all W&W D-9's? having a serial number starting with a 3 were in fact built under Singer ownership between 1905 & about 1908, although I have not been able to absolutely prove this. These machines were listed in Singer/Bridgeport catalogs as a W&W 9W1. Around 1908 the decals were changed to read Singer & the bed was modified to fit Singer cabinets. These machines were cataloged as a Singer 9W7.
The right slide plate with its screw attachment, single patent date & the hole with "Oil Here" all point t manufacture after the Singer buy out in 1905.? Also look for any part numbers on the machine, tese are sometimes seen on the needle plate & also underneath in the bobbin/hook area. The are normally 6 digit numbers as either 202,xxx or 208,xxx. All W&W machines I ave seen made prior to the Singer purchase had the right slide plate which slid out & oiling was done underneath the plate after it's removal. I have never seen a part number on a W&W built machine, these part numbers are Singer numbers. Miller/TN
On Monday, March 5, 2018 2:22 PM, Robb Ransom III via Groups.Io <robbtheshirtless@...> wrote:
Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Thanks for having me - I just acquired a W&W W9 D-9 head & irons yesterday with the SN 3,089,214.
Any way to date it?
The Slide Plate doesnt list Singer or Wheeler & Wilson on it.
I live in Phoenix, Az.?
I have been collecting & restoring VSM's for a bit over 2 yrs now.......my personal collection is at 138 machines so far.? This is the first W&W!
I will post some pics as the FB group thinks the decals are fantastic!
Thanks again,
Robb?
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Re: Nos. 1-4 Glass Presser Feet
Miller:
Thanks for these, they were quite interesting.
I think I have worked out how the glass-insert presser feet changed over time.? It looks like there were two configurations, a first that used a longer, heavier presser foot, with glass inserts that have the needle hole offset, and a second, shorter, lighter presser foot that used glass inserts with the holes centered.?
The two presser feet are specific to the their own frogs (part 17) - the side projections on the earlier presser foot are thicker and do not fit into the frog from the later machine.? Also, there appears to be quite a bit of changed geometry going on in the later machines overall - when I install the earlier (frog)-(presser foot)-(insert) assembly onto the?later machine, the needle hole lines up about 2-3 mm too close to the near side of the machine, exactly the opposite of what one would expect from the offset needle hole in the insert.? So at least some of the parts in the rest of the later machine must also be somewhat different from those of the earlier one.
In respect of the glass, inserts, this means that there probably were at least eight (8) different inserts that were used over time in the nos. 1-3 machines: 4 in the earlier version, and 4 in the later.
I have put together the beginnings of a spreadsheet that sets out the nos. 1-3 machines whose specifics I have been able to identify.? All the machines from serial nos. 195,634 to 438,664 use the longer foot and offset glass, while all the machines from 651,408 onward use the shorter foot and centered glass.? So it seems this was part of a larger set of design changes to the nos. 1-3 configuration that occurred about 5xx,xxx, and which is not reflected in the available parts listings.
Carl
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Treadle&Gears
Angela