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I pulled out a w&w paper pamphlet I have and wanted to post the prices for the machines. Just in case some people do not know the exact price of their machine. Based on the types of cabinets and testimonials, I believe it dates to circa 1898. ?This advertisment is most relevant to the West Coast, as it was distributed and stamped such by the Main Office in San Francisco. The East Coast may have had different prices and cabinets available.
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Prices and cabinets are listed in order as follows;
3 Drawer coffin top, decorated and embossed $60
5 Drawer coffin top, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$65
7 Drawer coffin top, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$70
"Drop Head Machines"
5 Drawer Drop-head, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? " ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$70
"Cabinet machines"
Embossed cabinet, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$75
Library cabinet, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $80
Mirror Cabinet, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?$85
"Tailoring Machines"
D-12, 2 drawer and 2 leaves, leather ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $65
No.15, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?" ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?, cloth ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $65
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W&W at this time was using "No.9" instead of "D9" to advertise the domestic machines, even though the wood-cuts and descriptions are for the improved D9. This advertisement uses V.H. (Vertical Hook) to describe the machines as well. The makers of the "Celebrated Victor Shirt" state that the old style sewing machines does for the No.9 "as the Horse Car does to the electric". This and another testimonial by one woman who had owned a No.9 for ten years narrows the date no earlier than 1898. Since the first No.9s came out in 1888.
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Anthony from N. California

Miller,
Thanks you for the information on the slide plate. ?I am considering buying a #9 head on my local Craigslist that's for sale for $30. ?It has the smooth plate on it. ?I don't think I am missing any other parts but for $30 it may be a fairly cheap way to get the part I need. ?I don't really want another machine around the house but perhaps I could sell some of the other parts. ?That idea makes me a bit sad but the machine has already lost it's treadle parts & cabinet. ?Not quite sure what to do.

My Mother-in-law to going to ask the previous family member who had the machine if they know the family history of the machine. ?I know the machine goes back 3 generations but it would be neat to learn if the machine goes back farther to the original owner in the 1890s. ?It's pretty neat that these old sewing machines can still be used today. ?It makes you wonder about all the people that have used it and wonder what items they made.

I've decided that I probably will never finish my WW cabinet and machine, so am prepared to sell.? If anyone is in the SE AZ, or NM, West TX or So CA area and is willing to pick up this machine let me know off list.
I won't be shipping as this puppy is HEAVY!! I have pics in the Kathy in Tucson photos. It has attachments, new belt, and does work!?
This list gets first choice before I list it publicly.?

Kathy in Tucson

Welcome Kim;
The #9 machine has the smooth plate, while the D-9 has the one with the finger hole cutout. The rolled down one actually protrudes slightly beyond the bed & has a rolled edge which is grasped by the fingers.
As a general rule the two plates are of a different width where they fit the machine bed, thus are not interchangeable. That said I do have a very early D-9 which uses a plate which is sized the same, thus interchangeable with, the #9 plate. It does have the finger hole rather than the smooth top with rolled edge.
I would have to double check to be sure but as I recall the #8 plate would not be interchangeable.
With the 1890 patent date your machine would have been built between 1890 & 1895, at which time the D-9 replaced it. I have a #9 which I acquired from the Granddaughter of the original owner. She knows her Grandmother married in a 1892 & that she acquired it after she was married, but doesn't know how long afterward. Its SN is 229,218.
All #9 machines have a SN of 6 digits or less, while all D-9's have a 7 digit number which begins with either a 2 or 3.
The #9 is a great machine & they sew very well indeed. Do feel free to ask any questions which may arise. Sharing information is our sole purpose in being here.
Miller/TN

Hello,
I am new to the group and new to treadle machines. ? Thanks for the add - I am hoping to learn more.
My Mother-in-law is offering me a No. 9 treadle machine that is a family heirloom. ?Overall, I think the machine is in good condition with a bit of dirt and minor rust. ?I am noticing that the slide plate is missing. ?I have looked other no. 9 machine online and there is seems to be a of couple different designs - one that is smooth and one that has a finger hole? ?Are these interchangeable? ?What about a slide plate from a no. 8 or a D-9. ?Would these work on this machine? ?The serial number is 280083 and the last patent date is 1890. ?I am adding a couple photos that I took today. ?I am excited to try to get this machine in working order and hope I can do some sewing on it as well. ?Thanks again!
Kim W

Thanks much, Miller. ? Appreciate all the info. ? ?


Sent from my iPad?

Hi Kay;
In picture T of your album you show the bobbin case as having an Aug 18, 1885 patent date. The SN of your machine denotes a much earlier date than this.
The earlier #8 "Only" bobbin measures 1.0 inch in diameter, the late #8 & all #9 bobbins are about .866" or just a bit under 7/8 of an inch. The 1 inch bobbin will not fit inside this case. All indications are you have the regular #9 bobbin, though as mentioned it was introduced on the very late #8's.
My early #9 @ SN 21,041 uses this identical holder, case & bobbin. Quite early on a positioning finger was added to the case & a notch had to be cut in the upper ring of the holder to accommodate the finger. The holder & case you picture have neither the notch not the finger, so this would indicate they are from an 1885 to around 1890 date. I can only believe the holder,case & bobbin have been switched out for the original after the machine left the factory. I suspect the hook is likely the original built for the larger case & bobbin, this may also account for some of the rattle.
A bobbin case of mine with the positioning finger carries patent dates of Oct 23, '86 & Aug 18, 88. The holder has no markings at all.
Miller/TN

I added a photo to my album on page 4 of the hook (photo H). ?It's stamped "8" in the recessed part. ?I've noticed researching this online is kinda hard because it seems a lot of the 8s are like mine, and have various degrees of upgrades and replacements.

Hi Mary;
Your attachment set is for a #9 machine. I am giving a link to a picture of 4 W&W feet from our photo albums.
left to right the first one is for the curved needle machines. 2nd is for a #8, 3rd is for the #9 & 4th is for a D-9. Note that dimensionally the shank is the same for the #8, #9 & D-9 thus they can be switched with the difference in the method of changing. To use the #8 foot on any model you have to remove the clamp screw in order to remove or insert a foot. For the #9 you simply loosen the screw & insert or remove the foot from the right side while on the D-9 it is done from the left side. The D-9 presser bar will accept a foot from either the left or right. The #9 bar will accept a foot only from the right unless you remove the thread cutter.
Note that during the #8 & #9 era most all the attachments were made to fit the cleft foot, same as the glass inserts so the foot itself did not have to be removed for every attachment change. With the D-9 most all the attachments carried their own shank most were equipped with an all metal straight stitch foot so the glass inserts seem to have been gradually phased out during this 1895-1905 era.
Miller/TN

i recently purchased a Wheeler & Wilson 9 tin with?
attachments in it. ?I'm wondering if they are for an
early 9. ?Or what they are? ?Photos are at




Sent from my iPad?

Hi K;
Yes, SN matches so this is the original plate on the machine. Bobbin holder has definitely been changed out for the latest style. I do not know of any site showing the proper parts for these machines. In our photo section are pictures of two early #8s which are both still earlier than yours. One of these albums is named SteveH's early number 8 & the other Steve's early WW8. Neither of these machines yet have the stitch control on the bed, not the screw adjusted tension nor a hinged bobbin holder. Note that these both had a big knurled headed screw to attach the bobbin holder so it could be loosened by hand to slide back for changing the bobbin.
The picture of the hinged bobbin holder I linked to was from an online manual from needlebar's web site. You can access the entire manual by going to this link;

When this page opens down near the bottom click on Needlebar Original Site. When that page opens at the top you will find online manuals. click on that & a page of manual listings will come up. Scroll down till you come to W&W 8 treadle & hand.
I had "Assumed" that when the switch was made to the newer style bobbin case & holder that the hook had to be changed also thus felt the newer style would not be compatible with the older machines. I have a spare holder of the later type so for curiosities sake am going to have to try this & see how it works. I don't think it will even be necessary to completely remove the adjusting screw, just back it up till all tension is removed.
Miller/TN

Late 8 early 9 bobbin and case. ?Does this mean I can use #9 bobbins? The nice bobbin in the pictures was in a drawer, the one in the machine when I got it was actually broken so I tossed it out. ?I was wondering which bobbin it took. ?I got the impression from another source this was an 8 only.

The presser bar is not the problem. The presser bar is not meant to adjust left or right. The regulator is designed to be a thumb screw type adjustment and a oil cup. The other ones are just oil cups as well. Sounds like adjusting your needle bar will solve the needle rubbing.

In regards to you bobbin case, your photos show you have the late No8/early No9 case and holder. This type of holder is loud on my No9 as well. You can adjust it inwards as Miller stated. To insure enough thread clearance to sew, place a empty bobbin in the case and thread the upper only. After placing bobbin in case, between holder and hook, Lightly hold your upper thread the same as pulling the bobbin thread up when preparing to sew. Gently run the machine by hand and observe the hook grab the thread as the needle goes down, and up again. Keep holding the thread and it will not bunch up under the machine, as there is no bobbin thread. The hook will just throw it off for the next cycle of the needle coming down. You dont want your thread getting pinched between the holder and the smooth of the bobbin case, so adjust the holder left or right accordingly.?
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Anthony from N. California

I added a photo album of my #8.

It does have a bobbin case. ?The bobbin fits perfectly, and the whole assembly is rattling around. ?I adjusted the screw on the retainer, and I will have to keep experimenting to get it just right. ?

I checked the needle bar height and it looks like it was lowered at some point (There is a dirt ring at a higher spot on it and some tool marks). ?

The new thing I discovered is that if I remove the presser bar regulator from the top, the foot moves to the left and the needle clears the hole. ?I haven't figured out yet how to make it stay in that position with the regulator screwed in, but it looks like the presser bar is the problem.

Anthony;
Good advice there. I don't know why I didn't catch that but you're right, the shank of the needle should not be entering the needle hole in the foot, it should stop above it. I will have to pull the face plate on my #8 & see for sure what the procedure would be but I believe it is very similar to the #9 in that respect.
Miller/TN

Before you adjust the arm of the machine or try to straighten the neede bar, you might try adjusting the needle bar up slightly. Miller helped me fix a No9 that had its needle bar set to low. This was causing the needle to strike and rub the hook. The needle bar had a collar with a screw. Loosening the screw, you can move the needle bar up, down, turn, or remove it completely. Since you say the "fat" of the needle is rubbing, it sounds like your needle bar is too low. Causing the needle to go too far down at its lowest point. I would try adjusting the needle bar up first.?

I only know No9s, so I am clueless if No8s have a collar for the needle bar. Someone else might be able to advise you further.

Hope I was of some help!
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Anthony from N. California

Hi K;
Unfortunately we do not have any way of positively dating W&W machines by SN. As best I can determine the #8 model was introduced in 1878. It continued in production until introduction of the #9 in 1889. I have seen a picture of the plate from a very early #8, only a 4 digit SN beginning with a 2. This machine stated it was patented by J A House & had patent dates of 1870, 72 & 73. My #8 treadle is later @ # 353,878 , does not reference J A House & has patent dates including the same 1872 & 73 dates on the early one but adds dates from 1876 & 1878. Your SN wold indicate a quite early machine likely no later than 1880.
Does your bobbin have a case with it. In so far as I am aware all of the #8s did. If your case is missing that would explain the Rattling. If the case is there & it still rattles then it is likely the holder itself needs adjusting. Projecting from the base of the bobbin holder, toward the machine, you should see a small screw with its end flattened. Turning this screw in reduces the clearance while turning it outward increases the clearance. The holder should be adjusted so that its spring just snugs up against the bobbin holder to keep it snug, but still be loose enough to allow the thread to pass around the bobbin case beneath the spring. Too loose & you get the rattle, too tight & you get thread breakage.
I presume when you say the upper tension is a flat spring what you are referring to is a flat spring wound as a cone. This spring operates through end compression rather than "Winding" the coils to a tighter wind as in a clock spring, which is wound flat rather than conical. This is known as a Volute spring & is a carry over from the tension of the earlier curved needle machines.
Pictures of the underside of the sn 2K+ machine as well as a later 45K+ machine do not show the tension screw like mine has for the bobbin thread. I am not real sure how their tensions are set. So far I have not found a manual from this early. Look carefully beneath the bed of your machine. These earlier pics show a couple of levers beneath the bed at the bobbin end. One I believe is the stitch length controller & the other may well be the tension control.
As to your needle striking on the side there are a couple of possibilities. First of course is that the machine is misaligned with the bed. 2nd is that the needlebar, below the head so it doesn't interfere with its operation has been hit & given a slight bend. If this should prove to be the case you would need to remove the bar & straighten it. Some people straighten them a by striking them while in the machine, but I have just never felt it wise to put impact such as that onto cast iron.
In the case of the misalignment with the bed, most machines when they were assembled & properly aligned at the factor had two or three dowel pins placed through the bed & into the pillar base. Thus if the bed for some reason had to be removed from the machine upon re-assembly the dowels would automatically align the machine. Some early machines however did not have these dowels & as it is common for there to be clearance between a screw & its hole it is possible for one of these to get a bit out of alignment. You can look underneath the bed beneath the pillar & see if there are dowels along with the attaching screws.
Check all of this out very carefully & do feel free to ask further as needed. If there is anything in particular you would like me to look at then you can attach pictures to a private email directly to me.
Boye 27 is the correct needle for your machine.
Although I have never met him personally from interacting with Jon here on the group I will say he knows his needles, along with other things. Seeing some of his E-Bay listings he seems to be about the most reasonable seller of needles I have found. I truly believe him to be an honest & trustworthy person to de business with. Other than on one occasion he let the group know he had some W&W curved needles in stock he has never used the group as a means of promoting his business, which in my opinion further adds to his integrity as a person.
Miller/TN