It’s a winter project, so it might take awhile, but I will report back…
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On Oct 31, 2024, at 10:43 AM, vijahast via < vijahast@...> wrote:
That is interesting… the only thing moving around is that damper spring. ?Without oil, you can hear it as you flip the forks over. ?The damper is fastened to the bottom of the outer tube, it isn’t moving. ?The damper spring just slides up and down the damper shaft. ?I don’t really know what it does exactly. ?
at any rate, I do hear it. ?Only thing that I can think of that would ‘clunk’ like that might be the spacer and/or spring. ?Perhaps a longer spacer might preload the spring a bit? ?I don’t know, just thinking out loud.
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im curious to what you find out.
?
V
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That is interesting… the only thing moving around is that damper spring. ?Without oil, you can hear it as you flip the forks over. ?The damper is fastened to the bottom of the outer tube, it isn’t moving. ?The damper spring just slides up and down the damper shaft. ?I don’t really know what it does exactly. ?
at any rate, I do hear it. ?Only thing that I can think of that would ‘clunk’ like that might be the spacer and/or spring. ?Perhaps a longer spacer might preload the spring a bit? ?I don’t know, just thinking out loud.
?
im curious to what you find out.
?
V
|
V -
Agreed. ?However...
The one previous time I changed my fork oil, I found signs of something amiss, either with the forks themselves or the maintenance practices of a previous owner (I’m the third owner, as far as I know). ?When draining the oil, I found the quantities to be the same, but the oil that came out of each fork leg was strangely different: different color, seemingly slightly different consistency, and seemingly different amount of “sludge” in suspension. ?I rinsed them out and refilled them (same oil in both forks this time!); when “compressing" them to check the air gap (no main spring installed), I found that one side would remain fully compressed at the bottom of its travel, but the other side would rebound back up about a centimeter, as if there was a small spring (or spring action at least) at work. ?I had to physically hold the fork tube down to measure the air gap. ?I thought that strange as well.
After refilling, I discovered that filling the forks with the recommended oil quantities listed in the service manual resulted in an air gap measurement that was nowhere near the service manual spec. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but I think I would have had to almost double the oil volume in each leg in order to attain the specified air gap. ?Very strange (said in my best Allen Millyard voice). ?I engaged in a lengthy discussion on the W650 Facebook group about it, looking for evidence of a mistake in the manual, or evidence of a mistake I might have made, or other advice, and in the end no conclusion was reached - so I still don’t know if I have the right amount of fork oil.
Finally, recently I’m hearing and feeling a very occasional “clunk” from the front end when going over sudden heavy bumps or holes, at low speed. ?It’s not the forks bottoming out. ?I’ve done all the checks to discover looseness or play in the steering bearings and front wheel bearing (both were serviced at the same time as the last fork oil change), and found no issues.
So, seeing as I’m once again overdue for a fork oil change, it seems logical to disassemble the forks and inspect the internals while I have them off the bike anyway. ?And although my seals aren’t leaking, it seems like it would be a false economy to reuse the old seals rather than renew them while I’m in there…
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On Oct 30, 2024, at 9:58 PM, vijahast via < vijahast@...> wrote:
Matthew, my fork seals aren’t leaking at all. ?I don’t know if they were replaced sometime in the last 24 years … but they are solid. ?Consequently, I don’t see the need.. it seems the W650 is a pretty solidly built bike. ?About as low stressed and reliable as it gets. ?
Some complain about the vibration around 3500 rpm… and I do feel it… but my last bike was a 70’s Bonneville. ?Now we’re talking vibration. ?Worse than that was a 73 sportster I had many years ago, that one made your hands numb after an hour or so (if you could keep it running).
?
In my opinion, the W bikes are the most faithful classic replicas made. They ?Really are classic bikes with modern reliability. ?
?
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?
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I like your ‘poor man’s’ progressive springs. ?The original metal spacer could easily be replaced with a metal pipe about an inch longer… or half an inch. ?Frankly, I’m trying to stick to stock as much as possible. ?But adding a bit more spacer does preload the fork springs … presumably stiffening them just a bit. ?
some have just used a 15w oil (or at least higher viscosity 10w oil) and like the results. ?But unless you drill bigger holes in the dampers … the heavier oil may be too stiff. ?I don’t know that my relaxed riding style requires stiffer suspension. ?In that case I’ll just get an old Ducati to play with
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Matthew, my fork seals aren’t leaking at all. ?I don’t know if they were replaced sometime in the last 24 years … but they are solid. ?Consequently, I don’t see the need.. it seems the W650 is a pretty solidly built bike. ?About as low stressed and reliable as it gets. ?
Some complain about the vibration around 3500 rpm… and I do feel it… but my last bike was a 70’s Bonneville. ?Now we’re talking vibration. ?Worse than that was a 73 sportster I had many years ago, that one made your hands numb after an hour or so (if you could keep it running).
?
In my opinion, the W bikes are the most faithful classic replicas made. They ?Really are classic bikes with modern reliability. ?
?
?
?
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Handle tool looks like this:
?
5/8 bolt, 12” long with 240mm hex-head
5/8 bolt, 5” long with 240mm hex-head
5/8 coupling bolt (between the bolts to connect them)
two 5/8 nuts to ‘double nut’/lock the coupling nut from turning while loosening or tightening?
?
works like a charm
?
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Ah, now I see what you mean… yes, that cylinder, spring and “spacer” are all shown as a unit in the parts manual…
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On Oct 30, 2024, at 12:36 PM, vijahast via < vijahast@...> wrote:
I have both a digital and paper parts manual. ?I may be missing it, but I cannot find a clear picture of the white plastic damper ‘seal/spacer’. ?Fortunately, mine are fine. ?On an older triumph damper, there are O- ring type seals. ?The W650 does NOT have an O-ring … just that white plastic seal/spacer. ?
the W650 damper is very simple, just a tapered hollow tube with a few holes drilled near the bottom. ?
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I have both a digital and paper parts manual. ?I may be missing it, but I cannot find a clear picture of the white plastic damper ‘seal/spacer’. ?Fortunately, mine are fine. ?On an older triumph damper, there are O- ring type seals. ?The W650 does NOT have an O-ring … just that white plastic seal/spacer. ?
the W650 damper is very simple, just a tapered hollow tube with a few holes drilled near the bottom. ?
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? Is this photo, you can see the split white plastic gasket/spacer. ?It’s locatered at the top of the damper, its widest point. ?My guess is that it serves as a kind of piston ring… forms an oil seal and provides spacing between the damper and the inner cylinder.
?
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I do not understand why Kawasaki did not include a drain plug at the bottom of each fork's outer housing.
When I pulled the forks apart to check, clean, and replace the oil, the thin plastic split spacers could not be re-fitted, so they were left out. It was too fiddly a job. I then made two one-inch-long round spacers out of a metal pipe, using them to precompress the fork springs while screwing?in the top nuts. No more bottoming on bumps. They are known as poor man's progressive springs. I also use tyre sizes 110/90-19 front and 140/80-18 rear rather than the standard sizes. Seems to ride better.
Have you looked at a parts dealer list such as on this website of
CMS.
On 30/10/2024 12:30, Matthew Szostak
via wrote:
Hey V -
I’m thinking about this job for the winter… I’m
definitely going to store that 5/8 bolt idea away!
I’m wondering what “split plastic washer/seal” you
mean… Is it shown somewhere in a manual photo or diagram, even
without a part number?? I’m thinking I’ll replace all the bushes
and seals in my forks (since I know they’re old and on rare
occasions I hear some odd noises over bumps - and it’s not the
steering bearings) - but as far as I know there’s no kit of
parts available.? Anyone have a list?? Or maybe I’ll need to
make my own as I dismantle…
~ Matt
On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:55 PM, vijahast via
< vijahast@...>
wrote:
Checking steering head bearings (which are
surprisingly good… just cleaned and greased them) and
decided to check fork seals and oil.? Boy did that old
oil stink!?
removed the dampers … made the ‘handle tool’
out of a 12” long 5/8th bolt (its hex head is 240mm,
just right), and using a 5/8th coupling nut, connected
another 5/8th bolt (5” this time) with a couple 5/8th
nuts to double nut the coupling.? Worked fine.
the fork- bottom 8mm bolt was pretty stuck but some heat
and PB blaster did the trick.? One of the fork bolts was
missing its copper washer… suggesting a previous owner
lost it and failed to replace it with a new one. ?
my question concerns that split plastic
washer/seal on the top of the damper.? Does it need to
be replaced and what is the part number?? Both of my old
ones look fine, but I didn’t see a part number in the
parts manual. ?
?
I’ve ordered new 8mm bolts as well since one of them is
pretty bungee up.
?
V
|
Huh. ?I look forward to finding out what these split plastic washers/seals/spacers are all about…
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When I pulled the forks apart to check, clean, and replace the oil, the thin plastic split spacers could not be re-fitted, so they were left out. It was too fiddly a job. I then made two one-inch-long round spacers out of a metal pipe, using them to precompress the fork springs while screwing?in the top nuts. No more bottoming on bumps. They are known as poor man's progressive springs. I also use tyre sizes 110/90-19 front and 140/80-18 rear rather than the standard sizes. Seems to ride better.
Have you looked at a parts dealer list such as on this website of
CMS.
On 30/10/2024 12:30, Matthew Szostak
via wrote:
Hey V -
I’m thinking about this job for the winter… I’m
definitely going to store that 5/8 bolt idea away!
I’m wondering what “split plastic washer/seal” you
mean… Is it shown somewhere in a manual photo or diagram, even
without a part number?? I’m thinking I’ll replace all the bushes
and seals in my forks (since I know they’re old and on rare
occasions I hear some odd noises over bumps - and it’s not the
steering bearings) - but as far as I know there’s no kit of
parts available.? Anyone have a list?? Or maybe I’ll need to
make my own as I dismantle…
~ Matt
On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:55 PM, vijahast via
< vijahast@...>
wrote:
Checking steering head bearings (which are
surprisingly good… just cleaned and greased them) and
decided to check fork seals and oil.? Boy did that old
oil stink!?
removed the dampers … made the ‘handle tool’
out of a 12” long 5/8th bolt (its hex head is 240mm,
just right), and using a 5/8th coupling nut, connected
another 5/8th bolt (5” this time) with a couple 5/8th
nuts to double nut the coupling.? Worked fine.
the fork- bottom 8mm bolt was pretty stuck but some heat
and PB blaster did the trick.? One of the fork bolts was
missing its copper washer… suggesting a previous owner
lost it and failed to replace it with a new one. ?
my question concerns that split plastic
washer/seal on the top of the damper.? Does it need to
be replaced and what is the part number?? Both of my old
ones look fine, but I didn’t see a part number in the
parts manual. ?
?
I’ve ordered new 8mm bolts as well since one of them is
pretty bungee up.
?
V
|
When I pulled the forks apart to check, clean, and replace the oil, the thin plastic split spacers could not be re-fitted, so they were left out. It was too fiddly a job. I then made two one-inch-long round spacers out of a metal pipe, using them to precompress the fork springs while screwing?in the top nuts. No more bottoming on bumps. They are known as poor man's progressive springs. I also use tyre sizes 110/90-19 front and 140/80-18 rear rather than the standard sizes. Seems to ride better.
Have you looked at a parts dealer list such as on this website of
CMS.
On 30/10/2024 12:30, Matthew Szostak
via wrote:
Hey V -
I’m thinking about this job for the winter… I’m
definitely going to store that 5/8 bolt idea away!
I’m wondering what “split plastic washer/seal” you
mean… Is it shown somewhere in a manual photo or diagram, even
without a part number?? I’m thinking I’ll replace all the bushes
and seals in my forks (since I know they’re old and on rare
occasions I hear some odd noises over bumps - and it’s not the
steering bearings) - but as far as I know there’s no kit of
parts available.? Anyone have a list?? Or maybe I’ll need to
make my own as I dismantle…
~ Matt
On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:55 PM, vijahast via
< vijahast@...>
wrote:
Checking steering head bearings (which are
surprisingly good… just cleaned and greased them) and
decided to check fork seals and oil.? Boy did that old
oil stink!?
removed the dampers … made the ‘handle tool’
out of a 12” long 5/8th bolt (its hex head is 240mm,
just right), and using a 5/8th coupling nut, connected
another 5/8th bolt (5” this time) with a couple 5/8th
nuts to double nut the coupling.? Worked fine.
the fork- bottom 8mm bolt was pretty stuck but some heat
and PB blaster did the trick.? One of the fork bolts was
missing its copper washer… suggesting a previous owner
lost it and failed to replace it with a new one. ?
my question concerns that split plastic
washer/seal on the top of the damper.? Does it need to
be replaced and what is the part number?? Both of my old
ones look fine, but I didn’t see a part number in the
parts manual. ?
?
I’ve ordered new 8mm bolts as well since one of them is
pretty bungee up.
?
V
|
Sure have! ?I also have a digital copy of a parts book, which includes the “exploded” diagram and all the parts and their numbers - and descriptions which don’t really reveal to me which parts would be replaced as part of a service. ?I assume that I won’t know for sure until I dismantle and examine… for example the bushing at the bottom of the inner fork tube (I think the service manual refers to this as a “guide bushing”?) - might be worn out or might be ok…
And now that I read a little bit further on the service manual page, I see the following under “Front Fork Assembly”:
… which leads me to conclude, yet again, that if I just put in a little extra effort, I could save everyone a lot of hassle…
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Have you looked at a parts dealer list such as on this website of
CMS.
On 30/10/2024 12:30, Matthew Szostak
via wrote:
Hey V -
I’m thinking about this job for the winter… I’m
definitely going to store that 5/8 bolt idea away!
I’m wondering what “split plastic washer/seal” you
mean… Is it shown somewhere in a manual photo or diagram, even
without a part number? ?I’m thinking I’ll replace all the bushes
and seals in my forks (since I know they’re old and on rare
occasions I hear some odd noises over bumps - and it’s not the
steering bearings) - but as far as I know there’s no kit of
parts available. ?Anyone have a list? ?Or maybe I’ll need to
make my own as I dismantle…
~ Matt
On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:55 PM, vijahast via
< vijahast@...>
wrote:
Checking steering head bearings (which are
surprisingly good… just cleaned and greased them) and
decided to check fork seals and oil. ?Boy did that old
oil stink!?
removed the dampers … made the ‘handle tool’
out of a 12” long 5/8th bolt (its hex head is 240mm,
just right), and using a 5/8th coupling nut, connected
another 5/8th bolt (5” this time) with a couple 5/8th
nuts to double nut the coupling. ?Worked fine.
the fork- bottom 8mm bolt was pretty stuck but some heat
and PB blaster did the trick. ?One of the fork bolts was
missing its copper washer… suggesting a previous owner
lost it and failed to replace it with a new one. ?
my question concerns that split plastic
washer/seal on the top of the damper. ?Does it need to
be replaced and what is the part number? ?Both of my old
ones look fine, but I didn’t see a part number in the
parts manual. ?
?
I’ve ordered new 8mm bolts as well since one of them is
pretty bungee up.
?
V
|
Have you looked at a parts dealer list such as on this website of
CMS.
On 30/10/2024 12:30, Matthew Szostak
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hey V -
I’m thinking about this job for the winter… I’m
definitely going to store that 5/8 bolt idea away!
I’m wondering what “split plastic washer/seal” you
mean… Is it shown somewhere in a manual photo or diagram, even
without a part number? ?I’m thinking I’ll replace all the bushes
and seals in my forks (since I know they’re old and on rare
occasions I hear some odd noises over bumps - and it’s not the
steering bearings) - but as far as I know there’s no kit of
parts available. ?Anyone have a list? ?Or maybe I’ll need to
make my own as I dismantle…
~ Matt
On Oct 28, 2024, at 9:55 PM, vijahast via
< vijahast@...>
wrote:
Checking steering head bearings (which are
surprisingly good… just cleaned and greased them) and
decided to check fork seals and oil. ?Boy did that old
oil stink!?
removed the dampers … made the ‘handle tool’
out of a 12” long 5/8th bolt (its hex head is 240mm,
just right), and using a 5/8th coupling nut, connected
another 5/8th bolt (5” this time) with a couple 5/8th
nuts to double nut the coupling. ?Worked fine.
the fork- bottom 8mm bolt was pretty stuck but some heat
and PB blaster did the trick. ?One of the fork bolts was
missing its copper washer… suggesting a previous owner
lost it and failed to replace it with a new one. ?
my question concerns that split plastic
washer/seal on the top of the damper. ?Does it need to
be replaced and what is the part number? ?Both of my old
ones look fine, but I didn’t see a part number in the
parts manual. ?
?
I’ve ordered new 8mm bolts as well since one of them is
pretty bungee up.
?
V
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