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Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
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I think you might be able to reduce the hole size on the minute hand by pounding on the piece in that area to "flatten" it a little more.? The material has to go someplace, and the hole should close a bit.? I would use something with a rounded end, so material is focused to move only to the interior and not the exterior of the piece.? And pound on the back side where it won't show.? I've read about this trick to make a hole smaller from time to time, but don't think I've done it myself.
Another possibility would be to make a very thin busying to enlarge the shaft.? Even the smallest bushing you could make would probably now make the shaft too large and you would then have to open the hole a little.? If so, I would use a very small round file and some patience and trial and error.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Sunday, January 5, 2025 at 09:01:21 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
?
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Correction to my post of a moment ago..? The word "busying" should of course be "bushing."
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Sunday, January 5, 2025 at 09:10:24 AM PST, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:
I think you might be able to reduce the hole size on the minute hand by pounding on the piece in that area to "flatten" it a little more.? The material has to go someplace, and the hole should close a bit.? I would use something with a rounded end, so material is focused to move only to the interior and not the exterior of the piece.? And pound on the back side where it won't show.? I've read about this trick to make a hole smaller from time to time, but don't think I've done it myself.
Another possibility would be to make a very thin busying to enlarge the shaft.? Even the smallest bushing you could make would probably now make the shaft too large and you would then have to open the hole a little.? If so, I would use a very small round file and some patience and trial and error.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Sunday, January 5, 2025 at 09:01:21 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
?
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Thanks for the ideas¡ it¡¯s actually split but it¡¯s worth a go, nothing to lose I guess!
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What are the hands made from? Can the split be soldered? Or can you solder a piece of metal (e.g. brass) to the rear, file to suit and drill?
As for opening up small holes 5 sided tapered broaches are the best thing to use, taking out a tiny amount at a time. Drilling undersize and opening out with a broach is a safe way of getting a decent fit, whether that be running or interference.
Reducing hole size has been mentioned, finding a ball bearing that sits on the hole then tapping with a hammer would be my choice for something that small, that way you're spreading the metal precisely where needed.
Paul B.
On Sunday 5 January 2025 at 17:01:20 GMT, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
?
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Thanks Paul - the hands are ferrous I think, they stick to a magnet.
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Solder is a great idea, in fact if that works it may be worth cutting a split in the other hand and expanding and ¡®fixing¡¯ it in the same way.
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Failing that I think I¡¯ll try filing off the flange and soldering on a piece of thin brass as you suggest.
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I knew folks would have some good ideas !
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Can you solder or braze the crack?? Car guys do "dimple dies" to thicker and heavier metals. Maybe something like that would help? You? could solder/braze the hole to fill it and repair the crack, then form a correctly sized hole and dimple. Might take more than a bit of experimentation... Pretty sure I couldn't get it right the first few time I tried.
Might also try pressing in a hub, and drilling that. Not at all sure which would be easiest or fastest. If I trip over any of the horology books I have, I'll see if they have any info. You might want to look at old horology books at archive.org, too, probably faster than waiting on me to get the lead out...
Tripped over the book while cleaning around the pile that my desk is hiding under. Has a bit on making and using a tool for prying hands off a watch, but nothing about making or fitting hands that I could find. And then I lost my phone for a few hours.
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Sunday, January 5, 2025 at 11:01:19 AM CST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
?
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There are several suppliers of clock parts - Timesavers is one that I use regularly but there are others as well. ?You should be able to get a new set of hands there (Klockit is another one I have used). ?In order to open holes you use a broach to slowly open the hole and then friction fit it on. ?I have several sets of broaches but in a pinch you should be able to make one. ?There are special punches for closing holes that clock makers use for this purpose and if the hole is just slightly too large then this is how I would correct the problem. ?If I was trying to salvage the existing hand with the split I would likely solder a piece of steel or brass to the back of the hand, drill it out and then broach it to the size needed to friction fit it. ?If the hand has a pipe that is a different matter - I have never made a new pipe so I can¡¯t help there.
Good Luck Dan L.
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Show quoted text
On Jan 5, 2025, at 10:01?AM, paul b via groups.io <pointfivebsw@...> wrote:
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What are the hands made from? Can the split be soldered? Or can you solder a piece of metal (e.g. brass) to the rear, file to suit and drill?
As for opening up small holes 5 sided tapered broaches are the best thing to use, taking out a tiny amount at a time. Drilling undersize and opening out with a broach is a safe way of getting a decent fit, whether that be running or interference.
Reducing hole size has been mentioned, finding a ball bearing that sits on the hole then tapping with a hammer would be my choice for something that small, that way you're spreading the metal precisely where needed.
Paul B.
On Sunday 5 January 2025 at 17:01:20 GMT, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:
Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those used to making tiny things!
?
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock. The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
?
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just try to drill out the holes.
?
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)? Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on the new shaft now.
?
?
<IMG_3015.jpeg>
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For the cost and trouble of getting new hands and buying broaches if you don't have them, maybe either give up or get a different movement.
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Thanks all for the good advice. I¡¯ll try soldering up the split first, planning to introduce a little solder into the hole at the same time, and then file it with a very fine rat tailed file. Nothing to lose.
(Harking back to previous discussions part of the problem is seeing what on earth is going on!)
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Chris, who has the youtube channel "Clickspring," has a series of videos
on making a clock in the home machine shop. Here's the one that includes
making the hands.
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On 1/5/25 12:01 PM, Peter Brooks via groups.io wrote: Happy New Year all ! ?I¡¯m after advice from horologists, or just those
used to making tiny things!
I¡¯m fitting a small quartz clock movement into a small, broken clock.
The face is nice, but the available hands that fit the quartz movement
aren¡¯t, so I wanted to use the original metal hands. The new shafts are
bigger though - 1.5mm > 2mm (minute hand), 2.6mm > 3.5mm (hour hand).
I tried to open the minute hand hole up using a spike / bradawl, tapping
slowly and very gently. Of course eventually I split it. What isn¡¯t
visible from the photo is a slight bush or flange effect around the back
of the holes, presumably the holes have been pressed out and this helps
the hand stay straight and true on the shaft. That¡¯s why I didn¡¯t just
try to drill out the holes.
Anyway, any advice on how to make new hands (and from what material)?
Even gripping them for filing etc. would seem ?very tricky¡ Or is it
possible to rescue the old ones? The minute hand just slops around on
the new shaft now.
--
Elliot Nesterman
elliot@...
www.ajoure.net
"The finest jewel cannot disguise a flawed character."
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Wow, that is just incredible. Such precision, and a great video production.
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I¡¯m going to have to watch the rest of his videos now!
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Thanks Elliot.
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I would use a Jewelers saw, appropriate thickness of steel or brass, drill press and files.
I use Rio Grande brand jewelry saw blades and have a swiss jewelry saw - under $20 for the saw;
I have a really old one that was $2 that I travel with, it works too, just isn't as pretty, but I won't
get crazy if I leave it and forget to bring it home.
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if the hole has a minimum flange you would have to mill the thickness after drilling the hole...
That is a little more complex but can be done with a end mill on the unimat, manually.? ?Just
use a piece large enough that can be manuevered under the flat end mill.
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I would drill the hole first,
use end mill for relief from flange on the back side.
use a sharpie, and an awl to draw the design...
cut out with jewelry saw...
use files to clean up...
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Use a Bird's mouth board for cutting with a jewelry saw.? My favorite instructor calls his
jewelry saw a multi axis cutting tool... it is so fun to be in his classes.
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Alternatively you can solder or epoxy a washer to the back side of it and re-drill, too.??
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But days to receive it in shipping and no matter how detailed I am at looking at the
description it could not be the right part....
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It is easier to buy something but satisfying to make it - maybe an hour of time?
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Tamra
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I have some doubt that a soldered split joint will provide a good force fit for this.? That is why others have suggested steel backing.
As far as the rat tail file, you may get lucky, depending on the dia and taper of the file.? But this is why tapered breaches have been suggested.
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Many thanks for the continuing advice - I have some 0.7mm material and piercing blades on the way.
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I¡¯m going to take my time.
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If the had was steel, I would make a brass washer to fit the back
of the hand, close up the split, and solder the washer to the back
of the had to reinforce the break.? I have made a washer with a
tongue sticking out and used it to repair a hand broken off its
hub.
On 1/5/25 10:50, Peter Brooks via
groups.io wrote:
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Show quoted text
Thanks for the ideas¡ it¡¯s actually split but it¡¯s worth a
go, nothing to lose I guess!
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I see is clocks and watches?
Here a chart for the mini rotary table 36 tooth worm and cutting a 59 tooth moon phase.?
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The second file is for simple indexing 3, 4 ,5 and 7 indexing drum?
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Dave?
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On Monday, 3 February 2025 at 03:33:22 GMT, davesmith1800 <davesmith1@...> wrote:
I see is clocks and watches?
Here a chart for the mini rotary table 36 tooth worm and cutting a 59 tooth moon phase.?
?
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The second file is for simple indexing 3, 4 ,5 and 7 indexing drum?
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Dave?
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Take care guys with that Toolmaster division table posted by Dave. It is full of errors and inaccuracies. To take a couple of examples the 43 division figures will give you 40.5 divisions (approx) and the 50 division figures will give you 49 divisions (exactly).
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Everything above 6 divisions should be checked and corrected as necessary!
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FWIW the figures giving 10 divisions can be 10, 20, 3, 12 and for 30 divisions 30, 20, 1, 4 works. For 43 divisions its 43, 43, 0, 36 All of those are exact unlike the tabulated figures.
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For 50 divisions I can't find an exact solution with the articles available ¡°plate¡± but 50, 43, 0, 31 comes close.
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I'll leave you to calculate the others!
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Richard.
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Thank you?
I found the chart by manufacturer web site. After doing a lot calculations yepy . Thank you finding that error.
I could not edit post so deleted?
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This one I work on and off? for days.
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I keep simple for most work.?
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The photo is one did for simple work below is in pdf for a clear view and print out. Keeping index cylinder to under 10 make do not need a sector arms?
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I will work 59 index by it self later.
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I still like Unitmat lathes?
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Bill in OKC too
Tamra
davesmith1800