Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
We used to machine up small components from 316 without any problems, cutting and doming odd rods, and turning up and threading larger pieces. Polished it up nicely too. No special tools, no big hassle. I haven't tried it on the Unimat, but I can't see why not.
Keith
---In UNIMAT@..., <mdupreno1@...> wrote :
316, she's real mean?
Martin P.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Kropp jeffreykropp1@... [UNIMAT] <UNIMAT@...>
?
I am reminded of an old machinist's saying about which stainless is easier to work with: "303, nice to me, 304, she's a wh@re."
Not meaning to offend anyone, just quoting..
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Major? diameter of 7 BA IS 2.5 mm. ---In UNIMAT@..., <donmckee@...> wrote :
Would a 7BA threaded rod fit inside a 2.5mm tube?? Since this in an LBSC design I¡¯m assuming it¡¯s part of a steam engine.? Can you get the 2.5mm OD tube and 7BA threaded rod in stainless steel?
?
Don
?
From: UNIMAT@... <UNIMAT@...>
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 9:46 AM
To: UNIMAT@...
Subject: Re: [UNIMAT] Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
?
?
Hi Gang:
How about 7BA threaded rod ( 316?) with 2.5mm tubing cut to length over it?
Carl.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
?I heard the cleaned up version in Machine tools class long ago "303 is for me, 304 is a chore" . The plant that I used to working in made Handi-Wrap, a food product so everything was either "soft" or 6061T6 aluminum or Stainless. Our "maintaince" crew used to have problems with the Stainless work hardening when making parts. They would run ever thing (mill/Lathe) until the chips that were flying were blue and then stop and then go back and start shattering bits. ?Jeff
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
316, she's real mean?
Martin P.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Kropp jeffreykropp1@... [UNIMAT]
?
I am reminded of an old machinist's saying about which stainless is easier to work with: "303, nice to me, 304, she's a wh@re."
Not meaning to offend anyone, just quoting..
?
Hi
Gang:
How
about 7BA threaded rod ( 316?) with 2.5mm tubing cut to length
over it?
Carl.
?
Hi Richard,
Thinking that LBSC would not have specified metric rod
(?) would 3/32" be OK?
You might need to re-make the mating part, of course! ?
3/32" was often threaded 7BA by LBSC (though it is a
fraction small) and 303 stainless will be much easier to
thread than 316 grade!?? I have used 7BA on 3/32 stainless
for studs on the steam chests of my big 3.5" gauge loco
(28 bore x 50 stroke) with every satisfaction.
3/32" stainless in 303 is available from Macc Model
Engineers and several other suppliers.
Hope that helps?
Regards,? Richard.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
I am reminded of an old machinist's saying about which stainless is easier to work with: "303, nice to me, 304, she's a wh@re." Not meaning to offend anyone, just quoting..
?
Hi
Gang:
How
about 7BA threaded rod ( 316?) with 2.5mm tubing cut to length
over it?
Carl.
?
Hi Richard,
Thinking that LBSC would not have specified metric rod
(?) would 3/32" be OK?
You might need to re-make the mating part, of course! ?
3/32" was often threaded 7BA by LBSC (though it is a
fraction small) and 303 stainless will be much easier to
thread than 316 grade!?? I have used 7BA on 3/32 stainless
for studs on the steam chests of my big 3.5" gauge loco
(28 bore x 50 stroke) with every satisfaction.
3/32" stainless in 303 is available from Macc Model
Engineers and several other suppliers.
Hope that helps?
Regards,? Richard.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Would a 7BA threaded rod fit inside a 2.5mm tube?? Since this in an LBSC design I¡¯m assuming it¡¯s part of a steam engine.? Can you get the 2.5mm OD tube and 7BA threaded rod in stainless steel?
?
Don
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: UNIMAT@... <UNIMAT@...>
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 9:46 AM
To: UNIMAT@...
Subject: Re: [UNIMAT] Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
?
?
Hi Gang:
How about 7BA threaded rod ( 316?) with 2.5mm tubing cut to length over it?
Carl.
?
Thinking that LBSC would not have specified metric rod (?) would 3/32" be OK?
You might need to re-make the mating part, of course! ? 3/32" was often threaded 7BA by LBSC (though it is a fraction small) and 303 stainless will be much easier to thread than 316 grade!?? I have used 7BA on 3/32 stainless for studs on
the steam chests of my big 3.5" gauge loco (28 bore x 50 stroke) with every satisfaction.
3/32" stainless in 303 is available from Macc Model Engineers and several other suppliers.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Hi
Gang:
How
about 7BA threaded rod ( 316?) with 2.5mm tubing cut to length
over it?
Carl.
?
Hi Richard,
Thinking that LBSC would not have specified metric rod
(?) would 3/32" be OK?
You might need to re-make the mating part, of course! ?
3/32" was often threaded 7BA by LBSC (though it is a
fraction small) and 303 stainless will be much easier to
thread than 316 grade!?? I have used 7BA on 3/32 stainless
for studs on the steam chests of my big 3.5" gauge loco
(28 bore x 50 stroke) with every satisfaction.
3/32" stainless in 303 is available from Macc Model
Engineers and several other suppliers.
Hope that helps?
Regards,? Richard.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Hi Richard,
Thinking that LBSC would not have specified metric rod (?) would 3/32" be OK? You might need to re-make the mating part, of course! ? 3/32" was often threaded 7BA by LBSC (though it is a fraction small) and 303 stainless will be much easier to thread than 316 grade!?? I have used 7BA on 3/32 stainless for studs on the steam chests of my big 3.5" gauge loco (28 bore x 50 stroke) with every satisfaction.
3/32" stainless in 303 is available from Macc Model Engineers and several other suppliers.
Hope that helps?
Regards,? Richard.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
I've had a look around and I think your best bet is to find a supplier on Ebay or Amazon. I've searched through the usual suspects and can't see any sensible deals for 2.5 stainless. One company will do a short rod for about ?6.50, on long delivery, and no mention of shipping costs, but otherwise it's mainly Ebay. I've found plenty of bright drawn rod, and some ground 316 - Ebay item 132937503007. That is a UK supplier,and the cost is low!
Having suggested titanium I find that of the two bits of titanium rod I have one is 2.5 diameter. However, the surface is quite rough, so I'm not sure what size it would be once polished down. Frustratingly the 4 mm rod is quite well finished. I'll remember what I got them for soon!
Keith
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
The threads are 7 BA, major diameter 2.5 mm, same as the rod. ---In UNIMAT@..., <carl.blum@...> wrote :
Hello
Richard:
McMaster-Carr
has 316 stainless wire in 0.102" diameter, 0.09mm over 2.5mm.
Perhaps
you could grind this to size. Grinding has less force against
the part than a single point tool. Plus you would have a
ground surface!
While
some would call me a cheat, I avoid threading. I would put set
screws in each end of this part for the threads.
Carl.
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Here
is the McMaster link:
?
On reflection, in the short term,? perhaps I should
seek a UK based retailer of a small length of 2.5mm dia
grade 316 st. st.!!
(I do not think the Unimat SL would be very happy
with big cuts owing to it's general lack of mass and
rigidity while the manufacture of the steady will become
a project in it's self - I will have to get the iron
casting made and jig bored to accept the extended cross
slide bars by others.)?
Richard?
On Thursday, 28 February 2019, 17:42:53 GMT,
mdupreno1@... [UNIMAT]
wrote:
?
Good points, Keith.
Since the length is only
1/2", seems like it could be turned from
a larger diameter piece held only in the
3-jaw chuck. In this case, the threads
on each end would be best done with the
thread chasing attachment, if available,
instead of die. The 52 TPI and .5 mm
might be close enough, for 1/8" thread
length.
Martin P.
-----Original
Message-----
From: ksangus@... [UNIMAT]
?
The traditional way to do
long thin items is to turn
them down in one cut, so the
thin section is never
exposed to cutting forces.
Large finishing cuts are
difficult on the Unimat, so
I would experiment with
making the last cut as deep
as possible, while starting
from a larger diameter bar
that won't flex when
cutting. This will mean
playing with toolbit angles
to get the best performance,
and I'm not sure what to
suggest there.
A lot depends on the
grade of stainless you're
using - there is a wide
range of machinability. That
in turn leads to the
question of why stainless?
Would any other alloy be
usable? I was at a show a
few weeks ago where one
exhibitor claimed that the
titanium he was selling
machined more freely than
most grades of stainless -
but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn
down to the size when you
can buy precision drawn, or
ground, stainless rod? The 3
mm and 1/8" sizes I used to
get in 316 were almost
polished, and made to a very
tight tolerance. I've just
found some 2.5 mm 316 in
short lengths with a
tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In
UNIMAT@...,
wrote :
Hello,
? ? ? ?I have
need to produce a
2.5mm x12.7mm long
item from stainless
steel with a GOOD
FINISH (it will also
have a 7BA x1/8"
thread at each
end).? The first
attempt was junk!
with a form and
finish best
described as looking
like a leg for a
Windsor? chair from
a doll's house.? The
second attempt seems
to be more
promising-with very
light cuts (approx
0.02mm , slow feed
and very high
spindle speed)? A
lot of the problem
seems to be a lack
of support and to
this end I have
started to make a
wooden pattern for a
traveling steady, to
be mounted on
extended cross slide
bars; in view of the
small size of these
machines and their
resulting use for
very light work such
as described, I find
it surprising that a
TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available
as an accessory.? I
would be pleased to
hear the views of
others on this
topic.
Regards
RICHARD
PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Hello
Richard:
McMaster-Carr
has 316 stainless wire in 0.102" diameter, 0.09mm over 2.5mm.
Perhaps
you could grind this to size. Grinding has less force against
the part than a single point tool. Plus you would have a
ground surface!
While
some would call me a cheat, I avoid threading. I would put set
screws in each end of this part for the threads.
Carl.
?
On reflection, in the short term,? perhaps I should
seek a UK based retailer of a small length of 2.5mm dia
grade 316 st. st.!!
(I do not think the Unimat SL would be very happy
with big cuts owing to it's general lack of mass and
rigidity while the manufacture of the steady will become
a project in it's self - I will have to get the iron
casting made and jig bored to accept the extended cross
slide bars by others.)?
Richard?
On Thursday, 28 February 2019, 17:42:53 GMT,
mdupreno1@... [UNIMAT]
wrote:
?
Good points, Keith.
Since the length is only
1/2", seems like it could be turned from
a larger diameter piece held only in the
3-jaw chuck. In this case, the threads
on each end would be best done with the
thread chasing attachment, if available,
instead of die. The 52 TPI and .5 mm
might be close enough, for 1/8" thread
length.
Martin P.
-----Original
Message-----
From: ksangus@... [UNIMAT]
?
The traditional way to do
long thin items is to turn
them down in one cut, so the
thin section is never
exposed to cutting forces.
Large finishing cuts are
difficult on the Unimat, so
I would experiment with
making the last cut as deep
as possible, while starting
from a larger diameter bar
that won't flex when
cutting. This will mean
playing with toolbit angles
to get the best performance,
and I'm not sure what to
suggest there.
A lot depends on the
grade of stainless you're
using - there is a wide
range of machinability. That
in turn leads to the
question of why stainless?
Would any other alloy be
usable? I was at a show a
few weeks ago where one
exhibitor claimed that the
titanium he was selling
machined more freely than
most grades of stainless -
but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn
down to the size when you
can buy precision drawn, or
ground, stainless rod? The 3
mm and 1/8" sizes I used to
get in 316 were almost
polished, and made to a very
tight tolerance. I've just
found some 2.5 mm 316 in
short lengths with a
tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In
UNIMAT@...,
wrote :
Hello,
? ? ? ?I have
need to produce a
2.5mm x12.7mm long
item from stainless
steel with a GOOD
FINISH (it will also
have a 7BA x1/8"
thread at each
end).? The first
attempt was junk!
with a form and
finish best
described as looking
like a leg for a
Windsor? chair from
a doll's house.? The
second attempt seems
to be more
promising-with very
light cuts (approx
0.02mm , slow feed
and very high
spindle speed)? A
lot of the problem
seems to be a lack
of support and to
this end I have
started to make a
wooden pattern for a
traveling steady, to
be mounted on
extended cross slide
bars; in view of the
small size of these
machines and their
resulting use for
very light work such
as described, I find
it surprising that a
TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available
as an accessory.? I
would be pleased to
hear the views of
others on this
topic.
Regards
RICHARD
PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
On reflection, in the short term,? perhaps I should seek a UK based retailer of a small length of 2.5mm dia grade 316 st. st.!! (I do not think the Unimat SL would be very happy with big cuts owing to it's general lack of mass and rigidity while the manufacture of the steady will become a project in it's self - I will have to get the iron casting made and jig bored to accept the extended cross slide bars by others.)?
Richard?
On Thursday, 28 February 2019, 17:42:53 GMT, mdupreno1@... [UNIMAT] wrote:
?
Good points, Keith.
Since the length is only 1/2", seems like it could be turned from a larger diameter piece held only in the 3-jaw chuck. In this case, the threads on each end would be best done with the thread chasing attachment, if available, instead of die. The 52 TPI and .5 mm might be close enough, for 1/8" thread length.
Martin P.
-----Original Message-----
From: ksangus@... [UNIMAT]
?
The traditional way to do long thin items is to turn them down in one cut, so the thin section is never exposed to cutting forces. Large finishing cuts are difficult on the Unimat, so I would experiment with making the last cut as deep as possible, while starting from a larger diameter bar that won't flex when cutting. This will mean playing with toolbit angles to get the best performance, and I'm not sure what to suggest there.
A lot depends on the grade of stainless you're using - there is a wide range of machinability. That in turn leads to the question of why stainless? Would any other alloy be usable? I was at a show a few weeks ago where one exhibitor claimed that the titanium he was selling machined more freely than most grades of stainless - but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn down to the size when you can buy precision drawn, or ground, stainless rod? The 3 mm and 1/8" sizes I used to get in 316 were almost polished, and made to a very tight tolerance. I've just found some 2.5 mm 316 in short lengths with a tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In UNIMAT@..., wrote :
Hello,
? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards
RICHARD PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
The rod I am using is 1/8" diameter grade 303 stainless steel; I am working on the steam regulator valve for a "LBSC" designed 21/2" gauge locomotive and have already completed all the associated components -so am reluctant to now depart from the detailed design now. and I can foresee similar situations arising on other forthcoming projects.
Richard?
On Thursday, 28 February 2019, 17:09:20 GMT, ksangus@... [UNIMAT] wrote:
?
The traditional way to do long thin items is to turn them down in one cut, so the thin section is never exposed to cutting forces. Large finishing cuts are difficult on the Unimat, so I would experiment with making the last cut as deep as possible, while starting from a larger diameter bar that won't flex when cutting. This will mean playing with toolbit angles to get the best performance, and I'm not sure what to suggest there.
A lot depends on the grade of stainless you're using - there is a wide range of machinability. That in turn leads to the question of why stainless? Would any other alloy be usable? I was at a show a few weeks ago where one exhibitor claimed that the titanium he was selling machined more freely than most grades of stainless - but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn down to the size when you can buy precision drawn, or ground, stainless rod? The 3 mm and 1/8" sizes I used to get in 316 were almost polished, and made to a very tight tolerance. I've just found some 2.5 mm 316 in short lengths with a tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In UNIMAT@..., wrote : Hello, ? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards RICHARD PENDER
|
Elderberry Steam Engine Kit
?I just received the Elderberry Steam Engine kit from Little Machine Shop.
This is a Open Column engine. i have heard good reviews on the engine so I decided to purchase one. They are $59.95 plus $14.95 S/H. I was very surprised when the box arrived. It includes one large spiral bound? Drawing set / blue prints of all parts. I also includes a large spiral bound Construction Manual that covers every operation step by step with plenty of color drawings. This is a great set of either beginner? or a pro. This set is the first of three, the next level is the Steam Mill engine?
and then the British Toy Loco
The kit came well packed and I would recommend it. ?I posted to photos, but so far they have not shown up. ?Jeff
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Good points, Keith.
Since the length is only 1/2", seems like it could be turned from a larger diameter piece held only in the 3-jaw chuck. In this case, the threads on each end would be best done with the thread chasing attachment, if available, instead of die. The 52 TPI and .5 mm might be close enough, for 1/8" thread length.
Martin P.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: ksangus@... [UNIMAT]
?
The traditional way to do long thin items is to turn them down in one cut, so the thin section is never exposed to cutting forces. Large finishing cuts are difficult on the Unimat, so I would experiment with making the last cut as deep as possible, while starting from a larger diameter bar that won't flex when cutting. This will mean playing with toolbit angles to get the best performance, and I'm not sure what to suggest there.
A lot depends on the grade of stainless you're using - there is a wide range of machinability. That in turn leads to the question of why stainless? Would any other alloy be usable? I was at a show a few weeks ago where one exhibitor claimed that the titanium he was selling machined more freely than most grades of stainless - but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn down to the size when you can buy precision drawn, or ground, stainless rod? The 3 mm and 1/8" sizes I used to get in 316 were almost polished, and made to a very tight tolerance. I've just found some 2.5 mm 316 in short lengths with a tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In UNIMAT@..., wrote :
Hello,
? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards
RICHARD PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
The traditional way to do long thin items is to turn them down in one cut, so the thin section is never exposed to cutting forces. Large finishing cuts are difficult on the Unimat, so I would experiment with making the last cut as deep as possible, while starting from a larger diameter bar that won't flex when cutting. This will mean playing with toolbit angles to get the best performance, and I'm not sure what to suggest there.
A lot depends on the grade of stainless you're using - there is a wide range of machinability. That in turn leads to the question of why stainless? Would any other alloy be usable? I was at a show a few weeks ago where one exhibitor claimed that the titanium he was selling machined more freely than most grades of stainless - but he was the salesman.
And then finally why turn down to the size when you can buy precision drawn, or ground, stainless rod? The 3 mm and 1/8" sizes I used to get in 316 were almost polished, and made to a very tight tolerance. I've just found some 2.5 mm 316 in short lengths with a tolerance of +0.0/-0.006 mm.
Keith
---In UNIMAT@..., <penderrgp_uk@...> wrote : Hello, ? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards RICHARD PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Agreed, a traveling steady is an obvious accessory for a lathe that was marketed in part to produce precision small turnings.
I have an aftermarket one, well thought out, that gives several different options for contact with the work, including brass and nylon plus tiny ball bearings.
If memory serves, it was made and sold on eBay by cgardi (Curt). That was a number of years ago, and I have not seen him offer one for several years, although he has sold other custom Unimat accessories recently. I have a couple of his Unimat DB/SL toolposts, a monoblock with a radius rocker, and a boring bar holder, and they are beautifully made.
Martin P.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: penderrgp_uk@... [UNIMAT]
?
Hello,
? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards
RICHARD PENDER
|
Re: turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Richard ?I have seen in some of the 1950's and 1960's Popular mechanics where they use a section of hardwood mounted to the cross slide to do just what you need. That was back when magazines actually had real hands on articles. ?Jeff?
|
turning very slender stainless steel objects on a SL
Hello, ? ? ? ?I have need to produce a 2.5mm x12.7mm long item from stainless steel with a GOOD FINISH (it will also have a 7BA x1/8" thread at each end).? The first attempt was junk! with a form and finish best described as looking like a leg for a Windsor? chair from a doll's house.? The second attempt seems to be more promising-with very light cuts (approx 0.02mm , slow feed and very high spindle speed)? A lot of the problem seems to be a lack of support and to this end I have started to make a wooden pattern for a traveling steady, to be mounted on extended cross slide bars; in view of the small size of these machines and their resulting use for very light work such as described, I find it surprising that a TRAVELING?steady has apparently never been available as an accessory.? I would be pleased to hear the views of others on this topic.
Regards RICHARD PENDER
|
Carl