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On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 08:31 AM, Chuck Moore wrote:

The question was asked previously why the thermcouple heads
in the Boonton Q Meters were so fragile and prone to burnout
so easily.

<snip>

If you look at:

That's Brooke Clarke, who is a member of this list.

<snip>

Back to the Q Meter.

The thermocouple is heated by a short length of what is reported
to be nichrome wire. The writer at prc68 reports the wire is 37
gauge or 0.0045" in diameter. The nichrome wire heater and the
thermocouple both are mounted on the bakelight disc inside the
sensor head. and the thermocouple bead is welded to the heater
wire.

In looking at a chart which showed various nichrome wire gauges
and the expected temperature of the wire when a specified current
flows through the wire, 37 gauge Nichrome A wire would reach 1600
degrees F for 1000 milliAmps flowing through the wire.

Looking at the chart found here:



you can see a fairly wide range of temperatures for currents varying
from 350 milliAmps (400 degrees) to 1290 milliAmps (2000 degrees F).
The reported melting point for Nichrome A wire is 2,552 degrees F. The
current to reach 2000 degrees is only 29% over the current reported to
be flowing in the precision resistor in the Q Meter.

Ah, so the sense wire gets very hot. I assume that means ambient temperature changes are no so significant, as it's so far above ambient.

I thought I read in the 260-A manual that the RF signal generator only run at 50% of the power that could destroy the thermocouple, implying this would not happen like it did in the 160-A
But maybe I got that wrong.

If you examine the
scale of Boonton 260's Multiply Meter which is monitoring the current
through the nichrome wire, the meter is marked with a red zone that
begins at about 5% of the meter scale above the meter scale's "Multiply
by 1" mark. It appears that the heater operates at a temperature that is
was approaching 63% of the wire's melting point.

Em, I like to design things with a bit more to spare than that!

Peter Olin, AI2V (reported to be a silent key) at one time provided repairs
and conversions of the 260 Q meter to include sensor head repairs. I also
remember that one conversion of the unit led to the vacuum tubes being
replaced with solid state active devices. From what I could determine most
conversions were driven by the lack of availability of the BR535 vacuum
tube (triode) used in the integral AC VTVM.? (I will repeat what I stated pre-
viously, the BR535 was a hand selected triode. A popular triode of the period
(I forget the industry part number for the tube) was purchased by Boonton
and each tube was tested for use in the Q Meter. Peter told me that culling
was dictated by an abrupt change in input impedance of the tube at 1 MHz.
Apparently there was a relatively frequent production error in manufacturing
the tube that caused the perturbation and Boonton's solution was to cull tubes
which presented with the undesired characteristic.

Another piece of information from my notes on the box is the resistors
R203 and R204 in the leads to the "Multiply by" meter are hand picked
at the time of installation of the thermocouple head. Apparently the
output voltage slope of the thermcouples varied and to compensate
for the delta between units, the resistor values were adjusted. Values
generally were between 30 ohm and 65 ohm. Equal value resistors
were used in each lead. The capacitors were in place to attenuate
RF that might couple into the sensitive "Multiply by" meter. The typical
0.01 uF value was chosen for service.

Many of the older units have a General Electric voltage stablilizer
block mounted on the floor of the box. In the last 20 years each one
I encountered either had failed or was in the process of failing. The
devices are enclosed in a stamped metal shell and filled with a 'GOO'
that makes a mess when the unit overheats. The GE boxes were
there to address line voltage fluctuations. Given the stench they
made when going up in smoke, I pulled the stabilizers out and use an
external UPS to provide well regulated AC power.

Please let me know if you notice any of the above info is in error and
also of any additions you might make.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG

Thank you. Your comments certainly help understand why the things burn out so easily.

How does one know if the thermocouple assembly is faulty? I ask this from the view of a person that has bought a supposedly working 160-A from eBay from a seller with a rather poor feedback. The attraction to the auction was the unit appears in good physical shape and that the shipping charges were less than $30 from the USA to the UK. I don't yet have the meter, but would like to know how to run some checks when it arrives. I do have a couple of Boonton Q standard inductors. One covers 50 kHz to 150 kHz and the other 150 kHz to 450 kHz.

Dave

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With all the talk of ‘Q’ meters and CMM’s, those interested might like to take a look here…

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John’s excellent pages give some incite into the quality of the UK made products of the time…

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Regards

Nigel Adams – Marconi Instruments Heritage Collection.

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On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 08:31 AM, Chuck Moore wrote:

The question was asked previously why the thermcouple heads
in the Boonton Q Meters were so fragile and prone to burnout
so easily.

<snip>

If you look at:

That's Brooke Clarke, who is a member of this list.

<snip>

Back to the Q Meter.

The thermocouple is heated by a short length of what is reported
to be nichrome wire. The writer at prc68 reports the wire is 37
gauge or 0.0045" in diameter. The nichrome wire heater and the
thermocouple both are mounted on the bakelight disc inside the
sensor head. and the thermocouple bead is welded to the heater
wire.

In looking at a chart which showed various nichrome wire gauges
and the expected temperature of the wire when a specified current
flows through the wire, 37 gauge Nichrome A wire would reach 1600
degrees F for 1000 milliAmps flowing through the wire.

Looking at the chart found here:



you can see a fairly wide range of temperatures for currents varying
from 350 milliAmps (400 degrees) to 1290 milliAmps (2000 degrees F).
The reported melting point for Nichrome A wire is 2,552 degrees F. The
current to reach 2000 degrees is only 29% over the current reported to
be flowing in the precision resistor in the Q Meter.

Ah, so the sense wire gets very hot. I assume that means ambient temperature changes are no so significant, as it's so far above ambient.

I thought I read in the 260-A manual that the RF signal generator only run at 50% of the power that could destroy the thermocouple, implying this would not happen like it did in the 160-A
But maybe I got that wrong.

If you examine the
scale of Boonton 260's Multiply Meter which is monitoring the current
through the nichrome wire, the meter is marked with a red zone that
begins at about 5% of the meter scale above the meter scale's "Multiply
by 1" mark. It appears that the heater operates at a temperature that is
was approaching 63% of the wire's melting point.

Em, I like to design things with a bit more to spare than that!

Peter Olin, AI2V (reported to be a silent key) at one time provided repairs
and conversions of the 260 Q meter to include sensor head repairs. I also
remember that one conversion of the unit led to the vacuum tubes being
replaced with solid state active devices. From what I could determine most
conversions were driven by the lack of availability of the BR535 vacuum
tube (triode) used in the integral AC VTVM.? (I will repeat what I stated pre-
viously, the BR535 was a hand selected triode. A popular triode of the period
(I forget the industry part number for the tube) was purchased by Boonton
and each tube was tested for use in the Q Meter. Peter told me that culling
was dictated by an abrupt change in input impedance of the tube at 1 MHz.
Apparently there was a relatively frequent production error in manufacturing
the tube that caused the perturbation and Boonton's solution was to cull tubes
which presented with the undesired characteristic.

Another piece of information from my notes on the box is the resistors
R203 and R204 in the leads to the "Multiply by" meter are hand picked
at the time of installation of the thermocouple head. Apparently the
output voltage slope of the thermcouples varied and to compensate
for the delta between units, the resistor values were adjusted. Values
generally were between 30 ohm and 65 ohm. Equal value resistors
were used in each lead. The capacitors were in place to attenuate
RF that might couple into the sensitive "Multiply by" meter. The typical
0.01 uF value was chosen for service.

Many of the older units have a General Electric voltage stablilizer
block mounted on the floor of the box. In the last 20 years each one
I encountered either had failed or was in the process of failing. The
devices are enclosed in a stamped metal shell and filled with a 'GOO'
that makes a mess when the unit overheats. The GE boxes were
there to address line voltage fluctuations. Given the stench they
made when going up in smoke, I pulled the stabilizers out and use an
external UPS to provide well regulated AC power.

Please let me know if you notice any of the above info is in error and
also of any additions you might make.

Regards

Chuck WD4HXG

Thank you. Your comments certainly help understand why the things burn out so easily.

How does one know if the thermocouple assembly is faulty? I ask this from the view of a person that has bought a supposedly working 160-A from eBay from a seller with a rather poor feedback. The attraction to the auction was the unit appears in good physical shape and that the shipping charges were less than $30 from the USA to the UK. I don't yet have the meter, but would like to know how to run some checks when it arrives. I do have a couple of Boonton Q standard inductors. One covers 50 kHz to 150 kHz and the other 150 kHz to 450 kHz.

Dave

https://www.rsp-italy.it/Electronics/Magazines/index.htm

Dave
The general test for the heater element is to measure the DC Resistance.
It is reported to be around 0.2 to 0.3 Ohms. Since the typical failure mode
is burn out, a positive continuity reading is usually regarded as proof the
heater is intact and infinite resistance is considered the failure mode.
When I first encountered a Boonton 260 circa 1980, I was told to never
place an ohmmeter across the terminals of the thermocouple due to its
fragility. Rather I could use a power supply set to current limit at 500
milliAmps and measure the voltage output. If the thermocouple produced
a voltage then it was considered ok.
As far as the susceptibility of the thermocouple being blown, Peter (AI2V)
explained that the later units produced in the 260 line were changed and
the thermocouples were much less likely to fail. He did not elaborate on
what change/s was/were made but said that if a person found a unit working
today, it most likely would be a model with the later thermocouple design.
Apparently the designs made before the change to harden the sensor
were much more fragile than I realized.
I have a couple of the 160's in the shed and intend to pull them out to see
if I can (1) access the thermocouple assemblies without destroying the
glass covering used to seal the sensor heads and (2) to determine how
realistic it is to expect to be able to repair a unit.
I read Brookes notes about his attempt to repair the sensor. It was not
clear if his repair used the same gauges of wire for the thermocouple
and heater as the original design. He mentioned he had difficulty with the
tracking of the readout on the "Multiply by" meter which is what the
resistors in the leads of the Multiply by" resistor were supposed to adjust.
While there was some slight variance between sensor heads, the meter
movement used for the "Multiply by" values varied and the combination of
the sensor head and meter variances were addressed using the led to the
custom values of the two resistors in the thermocouple-meter path.
I never imagined that such a low power would heat even a small
length of fine wire to such high temperatures. The chart showing
the temperatures vs current? were an eye opener. It sure puts into
perspective what 20 milliWatts can do with the right conditions.
Regards
Chuck