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Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


Generating 20 mV drive level with a 50:1 divider only requires 1V RMS, 2.828 P-P, which I would expect most signal generators would do, or not hard for a DIY generator.? Higher drive levels for very low Q coils would be a problem.? The virtue of a low inductance resistor array like I drew is that the resistor values could be much lower than 0.02 ohms.? 1 milliohm anyone?? That rapidly creates challenges of either drive power or voltmeter sensitivity or both.

John?? KK6IL

?

On 11/18/2022 3:32 PM, Mikek wrote:

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 02:16 PM, John Kolb wrote:
The author's approach is not to cancel the inductance of the 0.2 Ohm (not 0.02)
Oh, he does say 0.2¦¸--- Now I don't like it :-)? I've going through the Boonton 260A manual and have the 0.02¦¸
etched in my mind.
?I see one problem with the resistive 50 to 1 voltage divider, it is the low voltage, it is 1/50th of what a 50 to 1 transformer would be.
It's always something!
??????????????????? Mikek

?
--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

On Fri, 18 Nov 2022, Chuck Moore via groups.io wrote:

Iodide electrolyte is very good for this. A bit expensive because of high
potassium iodide price but very stable unlike cheaper cyanide bath and no
free cyanide is a big plus. Plated surface is a bit yellowish but pretty
tarnish resistant and the color doesn't actually matter in this case.

Generally, mil-spec silver plating starts at 0.0005" thickness, however a number of shops
now plate upwards of 0.015" if ordered. If you do silver plate you want to be sure to use
silver's characteristics for skin depth as it is a few microns more shallow than copper,
about 3%.

One positive for using silver plate is, that electrodeposited Class T silver plate has
additives which dramatically inhibit tarnishing. That is useful in many corner cases,
especially if foods cooked in the home have fair amount of sulfur in them. Included
food are eggs and onions as well as a myriad of other pungent vegetables when
cooked.
---
*
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
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Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

Generally, mil-spec silver plating starts at 0.0005" thickness, however a number of shops
now plate upwards of 0.015" if ordered. If you do silver plate you want to be sure to use
silver's characteristics for skin depth as it is a few microns more shallow than copper,
about 3%.

One positive for using silver plate is, that electrodeposited Class T silver plate has
additives which dramatically inhibit tarnishing. That is useful in many corner cases,
especially if foods cooked in the home have fair amount of sulfur in them. Included
food are eggs and onions as well as a myriad of other pungent vegetables when
cooked.


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 11:48 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
When I was spending a lot of time winding high Q coils and testing them on the Boontoon 160 it was clear than anything closer than maybe a few coil diameters would effect the readings.?
?I have a few 6" high Q coils, get within 18" and you can watch the Q drop on the Q meter.
?????????????????????????? Mikek


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

Cool-Amp is easier than electroplating ... but if you're up for
electroplating, it's not too difficult and you can just leave the
copper coil in the "soup" until you think the plating is thick enough.
You're right, the thickness of Cool-Amp is more cosmetic than
skin-effect thick.

73
Jim N6OTQ

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 5:46 PM Mikek <amdx@...> wrote:

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 03:03 PM, Jim Strohm wrote:

You may want to try Cool-Amp, but it's awfully expensive.

You have to ask the question, how the thickness of that plating compares the the skin thickness.
At 1 MHz, skin thickness is 0.0025". I don't have any guess for the thickness of that plating,
but I don't thing it is near 0.0025".
I wonder if you can put more than one layer on or if the bond is only copper to silver and not silver to silver.
Mikek


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 03:03 PM, Jim Strohm wrote:
You may want to try Cool-Amp, but it's awfully expensive.
You have to ask the question, how the thickness of that plating compares the the skin thickness.
At 1 MHz, skin thickness is 0.0025". I don't have any guess for the thickness of that plating,
but I don't thing it is near 0.0025".
?I wonder if you can put more than one layer on or if the bond is only copper to silver and not silver to silver.
?????????????????????? Mikek


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 02:16 PM, John Kolb wrote:
The author's approach is not to cancel the inductance of the 0.2 Ohm (not 0.02)
Oh, he does say 0.2¦¸--- Now I don't like it :-)? I've going through the Boonton 260A manual and have the 0.02¦¸
etched in my mind.
?I see one problem with the resistive 50 to 1 voltage divider, it is the low voltage, it is 1/50th of what a 50 to 1 transformer would be.
It's always something!
??????????????????? Mikek

?
--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

You may want to try Cool-Amp, but it's awfully expensive.

73
Jim N6OTQ

On Fri, Nov 18, 2022 at 5:00 PM Neil Smith G4DBN <neil@...> wrote:

Definitely pure soft silver from my bullion supplier. They do recycled
and Sterling, but it's no use as you rightly say.
Neil

On 18/11/2022 22:47, SCMenasian wrote:
If you use silver wire, make sure it is pure silver. Sterling Silver
has an IACS conductivity of 96% - which means that pure anealed copper
is actually ~4% better.


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

Definitely pure soft silver from my bullion supplier.? They do recycled and Sterling, but it's no use as you rightly say.
Neil

On 18/11/2022 22:47, SCMenasian wrote:
If you use silver wire, make sure it is pure silver. Sterling Silver has an IACS conductivity of 96% - which means that pure anealed copper is actually ~4% better.


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

If you use silver wire, make sure it is pure silver. Sterling Silver has an IACS conductivity of 96% - which means that pure anealed copper is actually ~4% better.


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


The author's approach is not to cancel the inductance of the 0.2 Ohm (not 0.02) resistor but that of the 5 CM (2 inches) of connecting lead.? Multiple surface mount resistors mounting in a ring around the Hi binding post can make a much lower inductance insertion point.

Surface mount resistors in 0805 size are available in values much lower than 1 ohm although it takes some checking in Mouser's resistor selection guide to find a value available in qty 1 rather than min 1000 in the resistance and case size desired.


John?? KK6IL


On 11/18/2022 8:06 AM, Mikek wrote:

? Here's an interesting approach to countering the inductance of the 0.02¦¸ source resistor.
The author says it's good from 100kHz to 40MHz. He doesn't provide a lot of build details.
?I wonder if it could be improved for even higher frequency.
The page also has a complete schematic of an experimental Q meter.

--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

On 18/11/2022 22:00, Chuck Moore via groups.io wrote:

(6) If you are going for that last 2% of Q, then bite the bullet and either have
the wire silver plated or bump the conductor up to the next larger diameter
wire size.

I use solid silver wire and polish it before winding. It's relatively low cost and much less trouble than plating.
--

Neil G4DBN


Re: Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

What I discovered over the years was a lot of people already walked the
path I was currently following. No where did this become more self
evident than the construction of? helical wound inductors.

The general rules mentioned in many writings, both amateur and profes-
sional state that to obtain highest possible Q the coil should:

(1) present a width to height ratio of 1. In other words if the coil is going
to be 1 inch high, then use a former slightly less than 1 inch so the the
center to center space of the wire conductor helix? is 1.

(2) Use as large as practical wire diameter. If you look at skin effect and
quantify the resulting resistance at RF, you will marvel that you can obtain
Q's nearly as high as being achieved.

(3) Space the turns of the inductor no less than one wire diameter from
each other across the former's surface.

(4) Use a single layer on the former. Just one turn overlapping the beginning
of the coil can shed nearly 80% of the Q and matters only become worse
with more overlapping turns.

(5) Know the source of your wire. Not all copper wire is high grade 99%
copper.

(6) If you are going for that last 2% of Q, then bite the bullet and either have
the wire silver plated or bump the conductor up to the next larger diameter
wire size.


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

Hi Jacques,
?I hope to get some closure on this, I have been a week on and off trying to understand the measurement.
The question is what causes the R to fall?
?It is my contention that on the Q meter that 0.2pf is resonated out, because after adding the resistor I need to retune to resonance.
?I'm using an 0805 smd resistor with 1" leads of #32 wire.
After adding that resistor to the resonate circuit, I need to adjust the tuning cap 0.12pf to get back to resonance.
?I appreciate any enlightenment you can give me.? Mikek

P.S. You mentioned 'high impedance' amplifiers, I don't recall if I said anything here about testing the input of high input impedance amps,
?but that is what I want to do. Put the amp input across a resonant circuit, see haw much I need to readjust the capacitance to get back to resonance and
see how much the Q dropped. Then do the math,? Rp = Q1 x Q2? /? 2 x pi x f x C x Delta Q.
?Do you see this as a reliable method to find the input impedance of a "high input impedance' amplifier?
I have two "high input impedance' amplifiers that I have tested at 1MHz. 0. pf and 180M¦¸ the other
tested 1.1pf and 200M¦¸, the later seems within the realm of the designers numbers, the other is
published 0.25pf and 100M¦¸, but no frequency :-)
?The Delta Q is small, not as easy to measure, leading to? errors, but for comparison it should work well.
?
--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

Please take note that high value resistors have their resistive part decreasing with increasing frequency.
The attached file shows the test that I did on a 1 Mohm 1/4W leaded resistor, from? 300 KHz to 70 MHz.
It shows that the parallel capacitance is rather constant at 0.2 pF, but the resistive part (Rp) goes down to 658 Kohms at 10 MHz.
I have had similar results using the delta Q method on my HP4342A Q meter.? (Time consuming since it is done point by point).
The advantage of the delta Q method is that the unknown can have one side grounded and will measure well above 10 Mohms.

The same impedance variations occur at the input of 'high impedance' amplifiers, such as FET inputs.

Jacques?? VE2AZX
ve2azx.net


Patent: Shield Can for High Q Coil

 

Hi:

When I was spending a lot of time winding high Q coils and testing them on the Boontoon 160 it was clear than anything closer than maybe a few coil diameters would effect the readings.? So this patent that claims to allow using a small shield can (less than a coil radius) on an air core multilayer coil without degrading Q is quite a claim.? Has anyone experience with this idea.



PS found when looking for General Radio patents for something else.? This one is assigned to General Motors Radio Corp, just a happenstance.
-- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

? Here's an interesting approach to countering the inductance of the 0.02¦¸ source resistor.
The author says it's good from 100kHz to 40MHz. He doesn't provide a lot of build details.
?I wonder if it could be improved for even higher frequency.
The page also has a complete schematic of an experimental Q meter.
http://users.tpg.com.au/ldbutler/QMeter.htm
--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 02:26 PM, david vanhorn wrote:
Yaego has docs which show how the impedance diverges from resistance in various body styles.
Yes, I'm aware of that, but not much happens until you get over 500MHz and even 1 GHz,
?I'm working at under 2 MHz.
?
--
Thanks, Mikek


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

Yaego has docs which show how the impedance diverges from resistance in various body styles.


On Thu, Nov 17, 2022 at 2:59 PM Mikek <amdx@...> wrote:
I did six more measurements of a 10M¦¸ smd resistors this morning, all fell between 7.2M¦¸ and 8.1M¦¸.
--
Thanks, Mikek



--
K1FZY (WA4TPW) SK? 9/29/37-4/13/15


Re: Making a Q-meter /

 

I did six more measurements of a 10M¦¸ smd resistors this morning, all fell between 7.2M¦¸ and 8.1M¦¸.
--
Thanks, Mikek