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A bewitched voltage divider?


 

Hi Guys,
I am trying to fix some problems on my 11302, but I am stuck on a problem that seems very simple, but which I cannot overcome: a simple voltage divider. I am probably doing something wrong, but I cannot guess what (I added an album among the photos with the simplified schematic diagram).

The 11302 "reads" the CRT cathode voltage using a voltage divider, selected by a 4051 analog multiplexer. It should be simple: the voltage divider is made up of a 20 M ohm and a 20 kohm resistor (the former is actually 2 x 10 Mohm resistors). So the output should be one volt for every 1000 volts in the input (well, 0.999).
For me this is not the case: the divider output is significantly higher than it should be (with -1.6 V in the output, the input is actually -1.510 V).

Easy, you say, one of the resistors has changed its value over time, but it is not so. I desoldered one extreme of them and they are all very precise. Another hypothesis was that the CRT mesh was causing some problem, but it is not: I disconnected it and nothing changed. I neglected the C1100 and C1420 capacitors because they could only lower the voltage, not make it greater.

The last thing I didn't check yet is the dirt on the lower part of the board, but before disassembling it I wanted to hear your suggestions, if you like.

I will be very grateful for any help, I am getting crazy. Thanks Gianni


 

I add a question: the cathode voltage is supposed to have some ripple or to be steady? When I measure the HV, I use the HV-probe with the VOM but I could understand that the voltage does have a ripple, looking at TP1250.


 

On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 4:49?AM Gianni Becattini via groups.io
<Giovanni.becattini@...> wrote:

I will be very grateful for any help, I am getting crazy. Thanks Gianni
This is how I felt until I discovered that my 485 had a voltage dependent
"precision" resistor in the circuit that derives 13V from the 50V rail. See
/g/TekScopes/message/113493. I have no idea why this
happened, nor how common it is, but apparently it can happen.
In your case I guess it could be as simple as some kind of contamination on
or around the 10M resistors, which doesn't affect your DMM measurements,
but appears at the working voltage?


 

Gianni,

According to the schematic, cathode voltage is supposed to be -1600 V. At 1000:1 divider would give 1.60 V, which it does. You say the input is -1510 V. Have you verified the accuracy of the HV probe and "VOM (or whatever meter type in use)?" The resistors there may have drifted.

--Robert

On 2/20/2025 2:49 AM, Gianni Becattini via groups.io wrote:
Hi Guys,
I am trying to fix some problems on my 11302, but I am stuck on a problem that seems very simple, but which I cannot overcome: a simple voltage divider. I am probably doing something wrong, but I cannot guess what (I added an album among the photos with the simplified schematic diagram).

The 11302 "reads" the CRT cathode voltage using a voltage divider, selected by a 4051 analog multiplexer. It should be simple: the voltage divider is made up of a 20 M ohm and a 20 kohm resistor (the former is actually 2 x 10 Mohm resistors). So the output should be one volt for every 1000 volts in the input (well, 0.999).
For me this is not the case: the divider output is significantly higher than it should be (with -1.6 V in the output, the input is actually -1.510 V).

Easy, you say, one of the resistors has changed its value over time, but it is not so. I desoldered one extreme of them and they are all very precise. Another hypothesis was that the CRT mesh was causing some problem, but it is not: I disconnected it and nothing changed. I neglected the C1100 and C1420 capacitors because they could only lower the voltage, not make it greater.

The last thing I didn't check yet is the dirt on the lower part of the board, but before disassembling it I wanted to hear your suggestions, if you like.

I will be very grateful for any help, I am getting crazy. Thanks Gianni





 

Is it still connected to the 4051 during measurements? Try without any other connections and of course be aware of the DVM load effects. If the 4051 is leaky, it could cause grief. Also try getting a reading from the output of the mux while the divider output is shorted to ground.

Ed


 

On 20 Feb 2025 9:29 am, Robert Gibson wrote:

Have you verified the accuracy of the HV probe and "VOM (or whatever meter type in use)?" The resistors there may have drifted.
Robert has an excellent point. Instruments and test equipment need to have their accuracy checked periodically. I only have one instrument which goes to the cal lab for an annual calibration. It is my 4-1/2 digit, true RMS. Keithley 179 bench DMM. I also own a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard. Those are my standards for checking the rest of my shop and field instruments and test equipment.

An HV probe is intended to be used with a meter of specified input resistance, and the probe will only meet the accuracy specs with the specified input resistance. That input resistance is part of a voltage divider. A different input resistance reduces the accuracy of the HV probe, and unless you perform the calculation to compensate for the different meter resistance your measurements will not be accurate.

It only takes a minute amount of contamination to ruin an HV probe. Handling the probe resistor with bare fingers is often enough to ruin that resistor.
--
Dale H. Cook, GR/HP/Tek Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA


 

Gianni,

Ed B. has a good idea to isolate the divider from the mux. As you have soldering iron hot and ready to go, I suggest that you lift the resistors R1422 and R1100 at the -1.6V junction such that the 4051 mux (U1540) is not connected to the divider. Re-connect the resistors with a jumper wire and test the -1.6V point (low point of the divider).

If you need help to navigate the layout to determine which resistor ends to lift, I can post a layout map for the 11302A. I don't have the 11302 layout. Compared to the 11302, there were no significant changes in that area; so, the components should be in the same locations.

I am assuming that you have indeed verified that you have -1600V at the high end of the divider.

Clark


 

Hi guys and thanks for your help. Here is a small update:
- TESTS - I disassembled the board, removed the critical components and checked them. I have three meters capable of measuring 10M. Two say the value is as it should be, one says +200K. I cleaned everything carefully and reassembled everything. I am now convinced that the components are OK. By the way, as far as I know, resistors increase in value over the years. In this case they should have changed a lot towards lower resistance. Also, if the 4051 was leaking, I would read a lower voltage, not higher.
- ANOMALY - Using R1355, I can easily set 1,600V on pin 4 of U1540, but I cannot go beyond 1,550V measured with the HV probe. This makes me think that, as you say, the problem could be in the HV probe measurement.
- ANOMALY? - That could be the point. Looking at TP1250, I see a 200mV oscillation at about 36 kHz, with a DC value of about -2.8V. From this, I can imagine that the -1600V has a significant 36 kHz ripple, and perhaps this could also be misleading the HV probe. This AC component is filtered by C1420, so the 1600V at the test point is accurate and very stable, but how can the HV probe behave in this case?

SO MY QUESTION is: should the cathode voltage be perfectly levelled? If so, my 11302 is faulty, otherwise I am looking for a problem that does not exist.

I forgot to say why I am checking all this. The 11302 seems to be working fine, but from time to time when I turn it on, the display is completely defocused and bigger than it should be. I turn it off and on, and most of the time the problem goes away. I could see that when this happens, the signal on the TP1250 becomes "spiky and noisy" as if the inverter has gone crazy (I upload a picture: on the left = inverter crazy; on the right = all OK).

Thanks again
Gianni


 

The noted symptom on-screen is consistent with the divider giving too high an output result - this causes the HV to drop, so the display blooms oversize. Also, that "spikey and noisey" TP condition during the fault is probably what you'd expect when the regulation loop goes open from loss of feedback or something hitting a limit. The problem I think is that something is wrong with one of the parts, causing intermittent jumping of the apparent divide ratio. It can be one of the resistors' elements or connections going bad, or a bad solder joint, or the mux.

Remember the 4051 is a bunch of CMOS transmission gates that are actuated by changing gate voltages internally. Being leaky can cause different troubles depending on the power supplies and signals used. If it's a fully bipolar switching arrangement, a fault leakage current may be of either polarity, and would actually cause an offset, not a scale change - but you don't know yet until getting some measurements. Since the signal is negative, the Vss would have to be negative and bigger, and there's probably a plus Vdd analog supply and plus 5V logic (or one in the same), so faults could go either way. I'd recommend again that if you have not eliminated the 4051, to do so and be sure.

I'd still suspect possible resistor or contact oddities, but since you've done a lot already to eliminate those, that leaves I think only the mux, or maybe something downstream from that. The CMOS parts have pretty good transient voltage protection, but they can still randomly fail, and that signal is part of a HV environment, and you don't know what sorts of things may have happened in there before. Good luck.

Ed


 

A little comic relief- Because the circuit is "Bewitched", try doing the nose twitch that Samantha does. Who knows, it might help?!? :)

??? Brenda Gentry, KA2IVY

On 2/20/25 21:25, ed breya wrote:
The noted symptom on-screen is consistent with the divider giving too high an output result - this causes the HV to drop, so the display blooms oversize. Also, that "spikey and noisey" TP condition during the fault is probably what you'd expect when the regulation loop goes open from loss of feedback or something hitting a limit. The problem I think is that something is wrong with one of the parts, causing intermittent jumping of the apparent divide ratio. It can be one of the resistors' elements or connections going bad, or a bad solder joint, or the mux.

Remember the 4051 is a bunch of CMOS transmission gates that are actuated by changing gate voltages internally. Being leaky can cause different troubles depending on the power supplies and signals used. If it's a fully bipolar switching arrangement, a fault leakage current may be of either polarity, and would actually cause an offset, not a scale change - but you don't know yet until getting some measurements. Since the signal is negative, the Vss would have to be negative and bigger, and there's probably a plus Vdd analog supply and plus 5V logic (or one in the same), so faults could go either way. I'd recommend again that if you have not eliminated the 4051, to do so and be sure.

I'd still suspect possible resistor or contact oddities, but since you've done a lot already to eliminate those, that leaves I think only the mux, or maybe something downstream from that. The CMOS parts have pretty good transient voltage protection, but they can still randomly fail, and that signal is part of a HV environment, and you don't know what sorts of things may have happened in there before. Good luck.

Ed




 

A little comic relief- Because the circuit is "Bewitched", try doing the
nose twitch that Samantha does. Who knows, it might help?!? :)

??? Brenda Gentry, KA2IVY
Ha ha! Excellent Brenda!
Try it Gianni. What have you to lose?
What you don't know how to do it? I don't either, ask your wife.
Renaud


 

My experience is that measuring voltages in a high resistance circuit is hardly as trivial as it seems first sight. And I've even seen intermittent changes of values of "precision" resistors randomly.
Why don't you try new resistors? You do not have to buy expensive precision parts for that experiment but select almost exact values from a dozen or so cheap 10%s. If the behavior of the instrument does not change you will know the resistors are not the cause of the problem.
Regards, Joe


 

Thanks again, your help is valuable. I understand the suggestion regarding the resistors. Provided I check the value, could I use normal resistors even if they are not specific for high voltage?

Since I disassembled, cleaned, reassembled the critic resistors and set the correct 1.60 voltage on U1540 pin 4, I haven't had the problem again (but it's too early to say I've won). The previous HV setting was too high (1.65V), so maybe the inverter was a bit overstressed?

Before I do anything else, I want to take advantage of the opportunity offered to me by a friend of this group: he also lives here in Florence and has a wonderful 13302A in mint condition. Next Sunday I will go to him to read/measure his oscilloscope, which I am sure is working fine, and compare the results with mine.

I will keep you informed. Thanks again Gianni

P.S. Who is Samantha?


 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 8:03?AM Gianni Becattini via groups.io
<Giovanni.becattini@...> wrote:


P.S. Who is Samantha?
Main character in a 60's TV series called Bewitched. She was the
witch wife played by Elizabeth Montgomery.



David


 

:) :) :)
In Italy it was "Vita da Strega"


 

One should always pay attention to resistor VCR specs when using resistors in high voltage circuits. Can be significant even at 2 kV.
This App note explains: Or just search on resistor VCR.
Craig


 

On 2025-02-21 9:52 AM, Craig via groups.io wrote:
This App note explains: Or just search on resistor
VCR.
A very interesting read! But I was hoping he would explain a mechanism behind the variation. Also, he describes using pulsed measurements in order to minimize heat buildup and therefore the confounding influence of Tcr. I wonder how much of the resistance reduction could be due to capacitive effects - that would indeed lower the effective resistance on a short pulse.

Steve Hendrix


 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 01:13 AM, Joe wrote:


You do not have to buy expensive precision parts for that experiment but
select almost exact values from a dozen or so cheap 10%
does anyone make, or sell 10% resistors?
1% resistors are cheap. (like 0.10USD per @ 1/4 watt)
They are used a lot.


--
Roy Thistle


 

On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 05:03 AM, Gianni Becattini wrote:


Provided I check the value, could I use normal resistors even if they are not
specific for high voltage?
You could... and some designs do.. but they use a series string of them to reduce the voltage across each one.
The current is common to all... and the power dissipation of each resistor should be factored in.
See the resistor's data sheet, for the 'maximum working voltage."

--
Roy Thistle


 

Roy, I have no idea if 10% resistors are still en vogue.
I have been fixing (or trying to fix) tube gear for some decades now, so there's plenty of that stuff in stock. And I'm sure I'm not the only one out here.

Regards, Joe