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I don't know if it's just me, but to me, the user interface sucks now. I just lost another long message I was trying to post - it just disappeared when I hit SEND. The navigation doesn't work right, either - clicking stuff is often unresponsive, or does something different each time. There top blue bar in the window is now twice its previous height, and it obscures important things like the "HOME" button, which is essential to me anyway, for jumping around. I am disgusted with it.

I suppose it could be due to using WinXP - maybe it's now incompatible. I don't know. I do know that it worked just fine before, and now it sucks, so I've had it, and will soon quit posting any messages. Even looking at messages is difficult now.

I'd like to hear if anyone else is having these kind of troubles - maybe it is just me, but I have to rant anyway.

I will send this message and hopefully it gets through - I'll copy it so I can try again if not. Another symptom is that sometimes it goes through just fine right away, sometimes it opens an error window with a cryptic set of characters, and sometimes it just disappears.

I'll work hard to get this one posted, then one more short version about the shopping cart story, and then that's it for me.

Ed

Tried to confirm it worked fine, then the confirmation went to error and disappeared. Will try again.

On 5/9/2024 9:05 PM, Ed Breya wrote:

I suppose it could be due to using WinXP - maybe it's now incompatible

That is an entirely possible, as WinXP is pretty Jurassic nowadays. I am always running one version late - now that Win11 is out I am still running Win10.

You might be able to eliminate some problems by using an email client. I don't do email on web sites - I use Thunderbird to aggregate my 32 email accounts (I like many accounts through four domains to combat spam). With one click I can download new email from all 32 accounts, including maybe 40 reflectors and email posted from my hundreds of web pages in my two private domains.
--
Dale H. Cook, GR/HP/Tek Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA

Type your reply in Notepad or Wordpad as plain text, then copy and paste it.
Are you zoomed in on the website? Some web pages only work properly at 100*

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 9:06?PM Ed Breya via groups.io <edbreya=
[email protected]> wrote:

I don't know if it's just me, but to me, the user interface sucks now. I
just lost another long message I was trying to post - it just disappeared
when I hit SEND. The navigation doesn't work right, either - clicking
stuff is often unresponsive, or does something different each time. There
top blue bar in the window is now twice its previous height, and it
obscures important things like the "HOME" button, which is essential to me
anyway, for jumping around. I am disgusted with it.

I suppose it could be due to using WinXP - maybe it's now incompatible. I
don't know. I do know that it worked just fine before, and now it sucks, so
I've had it, and will soon quit posting any messages. Even looking at
messages is difficult now.

I'd like to hear if anyone else is having these kind of troubles - maybe
it is just me, but I have to rant anyway.

I will send this message and hopefully it gets through - I'll copy it so I
can try again if not. Another symptom is that sometimes it goes through
just fine right away, sometimes it opens an error window with a cryptic set
of characters, and sometimes it just disappears.

I'll work hard to get this one posted, then one more short version about
the shopping cart story, and then that's it for me.

Ed

I tend to agree, although I haven't catalogued all the things that are worse now, after the re-write.

As a retired engineer who has written a lot of code, including HDLs, I have never liked "improvements" that cannot be linked to user requiements, either formal or informal. It is quite frustrating. And, of course, this characteristic is ubiquitous; most of the software programs that I use on the internef (to look for products from a vendor with which I have used for decades, or to pay bills online, etc., etc.) keep changing so that I often have to spend extra time figuring out how to do things using the new and "improved" website that I used to be able to do without a lot of thought using the previous version.

Ok, rant finished.

One specific note: I almost never use the web or mobile versions of groups.io to read and write posts; I pretty much always use my email client (Thunderbird).

DaveD
KC0WJN

Thunderbird just did an 'upgrade' to their email UI layout. It looks worse,
and with low vision it is more difficult to use.

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 9:28?PM Dave Daniel via groups.io <kc0wjn=
[email protected]> wrote:

I tend to agree, although I haven't catalogued all the things that are
worse now, after the re-write.

As a retired engineer who has written a lot of code, including HDLs, I
have never liked "improvements" that cannot be linked to user requiements,
either formal or informal. It is quite frustrating. And, of course, this
characteristic is ubiquitous; most of the software programs that I use on
the internef (to look for products from a vendor with which I have used for
decades, or to pay bills online, etc., etc.) keep changing so that I often
have to spend extra time figuring out how to do things using the new and
"improved" website that I used to be able to do without a lot of thought
using the previous version.

Ok, rant finished.

One specific note: I almost never use the web or mobile versions of
groups.io to read and write posts; I pretty much always use my email
client (Thunderbird).

DaveD
KC0WJN

On May 9, 2024, at 21:06, Ed Breya via groups.io <edbreya=

[email protected]> wrote:

?I don't know if it's just me, but to me, the user interface sucks now.

I just lost another long message I was trying to post - it just disappeared
when I hit SEND. The navigation doesn't work right, either - clicking
stuff is often unresponsive, or does something different each time. There
top blue bar in the window is now twice its previous height, and it
obscures important things like the "HOME" button, which is essential to me
anyway, for jumping around. I am disgusted with it.

I suppose it could be due to using WinXP - maybe it's now incompatible.

I don't know. I do know that it worked just fine before, and now it sucks,
so I've had it, and will soon quit posting any messages. Even looking at
messages is difficult now.

I'd like to hear if anyone else is having these kind of troubles - maybe

it is just me, but I have to rant anyway.

I will send this message and hopefully it gets through - I'll copy it so

I can try again if not. Another symptom is that sometimes it goes through
just fine right away, sometimes it opens an error window with a cryptic set
of characters, and sometimes it just disappears.

I'll work hard to get this one posted, then one more short version about

the shopping cart story, and then that's it for me.

Ed

I heard a very good explanation of why someone changes a perfectly fine product into something unnecessarily annoying to re-learn and then call it “new and improved.” The reason is the same reason that dogs piss on fire hydrants; to make it theirs!

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 10:05 AM, Ed Breya wrote:

I suppose it could be due to using WinXP - maybe it's now incompatible.

Oh my.
You are using Windows XP, online?
How did you even find a browser that is compatible with modern SSL/TLS requirements?
That there is your problem, outdated software trying to run a modern website. :D

It's almost certain that you are compromised too and don't even know it... There are multiple known unpatched exploits for XP that have existed for decades.....

A few random comments.

I too hate the "newer is better by definition" attitude. I hate that in
spades with some modern "flat GUIs", since you have to randomly click until
you stumble across a hieroglyph that is actually a button. Yes Windows>8,
I'm looking at you! My preference is for the "WinXP GUI experience", and
fortunately it is still available with modern OS+applications.

I too sometimes use an unjustifiably old OS, and have noticed in the past
couple of months that more websites are "not behaving". I must get over my
inertia, and completely flip to a new OS!


If you don't like the Thunderbird email client, it might be worth trying
SeaMonkey. It is very similar, but the GUI might be older and/or their
might be several different themes. I haven't tried it in the last 5 years
or so, but it certainly used to be possible to use them
interchangeably/interoperably on the same mbox files, spam filters, address
books, etc. Just don't have both running simultaneously!



Someone having problems using WinXP and old applications might like to try
an alternative to see if it avoids the pain points for them. Switching to a
new OS is always a fraught affair, but is is possible to try them *without
touching your existing OS.* That means if you don't like the new
OS+application, then *instantly* revert to whatever you are currently using.

The key point is to use a "LiveCD" or "LiveUSBStick" variant. Plug in the
USB stick or insert the CD, if necessary tell you PC's BIOS to boot from
USB/CD, and restart the PC. It will boot and run the OS without touching
your existing hard disks. That means the initial boot will be slower than
from a hard disk, but nowhere near as slow as a Windows installation (but
then nothing else is that slow!).If you don't like it, simply remove the
CD/USB, reboot and you will be where you were before. Just make sure you
download a 32bit or 64 bit .iso file, as appropriate for your machine.

Since I think the best GUI is the WinXP GUI (everything visible, nothing
hidden, nothing changes underneath you because the "OS know better than
you"), I normally use a WinXP theme in the Xfce window manager. That can be
found in any of the OS variants with an "x" at the beginning, e.g. xubuntu,
mint xfce edition, etc.

I was using Seamonkey, until it became too outdated to access Gmail. Then I
switched to Thunderbird.

On Fri, May 10, 2024 at 3:53?AM Tom Gardner via groups.io <tggzzz=
[email protected]> wrote:

A few random comments.

I too hate the "newer is better by definition" attitude. I hate that in
spades with some modern "flat GUIs", since you have to randomly click until
you stumble across a hieroglyph that is actually a button. Yes Windows>8,
I'm looking at you! My preference is for the "WinXP GUI experience", and
fortunately it is still available with modern OS+applications.

I too sometimes use an unjustifiably old OS, and have noticed in the past
couple of months that more websites are "not behaving". I must get over my
inertia, and completely flip to a new OS!


If you don't like the Thunderbird email client, it might be worth trying
SeaMonkey. It is very similar, but the GUI might be older and/or their
might be several different themes. I haven't tried it in the last 5 years
or so, but it certainly used to be possible to use them
interchangeably/interoperably on the same mbox files, spam filters, address
books, etc. Just don't have both running simultaneously!



Someone having problems using WinXP and old applications might like to try
an alternative to see if it avoids the pain points for them. Switching to a
new OS is always a fraught affair, but is is possible to try them *without
touching your existing OS.* That means if you don't like the new
OS+application, then *instantly* revert to whatever you are currently
using.

The key point is to use a "LiveCD" or "LiveUSBStick" variant. Plug in the
USB stick or insert the CD, if necessary tell you PC's BIOS to boot from
USB/CD, and restart the PC. It will boot and run the OS without touching
your existing hard disks. That means the initial boot will be slower than
from a hard disk, but nowhere near as slow as a Windows installation (but
then nothing else is that slow!).If you don't like it, simply remove the
CD/USB, reboot and you will be where you were before. Just make sure you
download a 32bit or 64 bit .iso file, as appropriate for your machine.

Since I think the best GUI is the WinXP GUI (everything visible, nothing
hidden, nothing changes underneath you because the "OS know better than
you"), I normally use a WinXP theme in the Xfce window manager. That can be
found in any of the OS variants with an "x" at the beginning, e.g. xubuntu,
mint xfce edition, etc.

WRT to "upgrading" an OS, particularly Windows, another path to take is to install the new OS on a new HDD/SSD while keeping the current drive intact:

- make a backup of your current drive

- buy a new hard drive of equal or higher capacity than the one you are presently using that can replace your current drive

- swap the new drive for the current drive. Keep the old drive safe, preferably in an ESD bag

- intsall ths new OS on the new drive

- install the applications you need on the new drive

- copy your user files from the old drive to the new drive

WRT to the last step, having an ATAPI-to-USB bridge is extremy useful. This allows one to copy files to and from the old drive as if it were a normal external USB drive. It helps to always keep all your user files under one directory so that they can all be copied en masse from anywhere to any other place. Some bridges come with sofware that can be used to copy the data on a drive to a larger drive (say, copy from a 1 TB drive to a 2 TB drive) with ratiometrically scaled larger partitions on the new drive; hey presto, you just increased your storage capacity without having to rebuild all your "stuff" from scratch onto the new, larger drive.

DaveD
KC0WJN

On 5/9/24 19:05, Ed Breya via groups.io wrote:

I'd like to hear if anyone else is having these kind of troubles

Not a bit. Using thunderbird email reader.

no issues using thunderbird 68.12.1 on linux mint xfce machine. ( did not like the changes after TB 68) handling 9 email accounts.
搁别苍é别

No big issues using my iPhone SE nor with my Firefox browser on Ubuntu/Linux.

Lately it doesn’t correctly indicate read or unread posts but that doesn’t bother me.

My few and infrequent replies seem to be unmolested but they always seem less important after I read my own posting.

I use an old XP machine for email so as not to clutter up my main machine. But now I can no longer send replies via the groups.io page. When sending the message it no longer goes through and I only receive a “{"DraftID":26752611}” reply. But replying through the digest I receive via my email (use Yahoo for these types of sites) sending messages is successful.

Somewhat unrelated to this there is the “Your Browser is No Longer Supported” that occasionally pops up when bringing up a webpage. This XP computer is using the last version of the FireFox browser that can be used under this system. The computer has some issues trying to support other later browser variants. So one has to look at an upgrade to a later OS. But this computer also has a multitude of older software that will not work with later operating systems unless upgraded.

Solution?

1. Buy new computer with recent operating system: ~$1000.00
2. Purchase new software to work on new operating system: ~$2800.00

Nearly 4 thousand dollars expenditure just to look at a single website? I think not.

Problem here is that the people who design websites simply let those who have older systems fall through the cracks. The young puppy programmers are not willing to learn legacy systems. That serves as a good reflection on how companies nowadays distribute their respect for customers. Not everybody is on the bleeding edge of technology for many reasons.

It’s interesting to note that some actual vary good and professional organizations have coded their websites to honor older browsers when they send out probes to see what the client has. These are people who really care for their website visitors. I have also experienced some companies who will offer a XP patch for their upgraded software if requested.

Fundamentally things are working well with this older machine except for the occasional “surprises” like the one that has now occurred with groups.io.

I realize that there are many people out there who enjoy a brisk encounter doing “scientific experiments” to accommodate website changes but I simply don’t have the luxury of a lot of time to do so. When something works well I simply stick with it. And I’m not about to jump through a dozen hoops just to satisfy a variant introduced by just one website. I do understand the aspects of technical progress but it has been my impression to have companies concentrate on “neat, new & nifty” advances purely for profit/stockholder motives is one of the issues doing damage to many people out there from a user and cost standpoint.

Greg

I have never paid that much for a computer. You can buy a new computer, but
I typically buy recent, used business computers for under$100 and get
several years of life out of them.
I prefer a used business grade, to a new, consumer grade system which isn't
likely to survive as long as its installed OS. Keep the old computer, with
the old software if it will still do the job.
I have working computers back to Win 95. and several older Commodore
computers to run old software, or to convert files

On Sat, May 11, 2024 at 2:28?PM Greg Muir via groups.io <big_sky_explorer=
[email protected]> wrote:

I use an old XP machine for email so as not to clutter up my main
machine. But now I can no longer send replies via the groups.io page.
When sending the message it no longer goes through and I only receive a
“{"DraftID":26752611}” reply. But replying through the digest I receive
via my email (use Yahoo for these types of sites) sending messages is
successful.

Somewhat unrelated to this there is the “Your Browser is No Longer
Supported” that occasionally pops up when bringing up a webpage. This XP
computer is using the last version of the FireFox browser that can be used
under this system. The computer has some issues trying to support other
later browser variants. So one has to look at an upgrade to a later OS.
But this computer also has a multitude of older software that will not work
with later operating systems unless upgraded.

Solution?

1. Buy new computer with recent operating system: ~$1000.00
2. Purchase new software to work on new operating system: ~$2800.00

Nearly 4 thousand dollars expenditure just to look at a single website? I
think not.

Problem here is that the people who design websites simply let those who
have older systems fall through the cracks. The young puppy programmers
are not willing to learn legacy systems. That serves as a good reflection
on how companies nowadays distribute their respect for customers. Not
everybody is on the bleeding edge of technology for many reasons.

It’s interesting to note that some actual vary good and professional
organizations have coded their websites to honor older browsers when they
send out probes to see what the client has. These are people who really
care for their website visitors. I have also experienced some companies
who will offer a XP patch for their upgraded software if requested.

Fundamentally things are working well with this older machine except for
the occasional “surprises” like the one that has now occurred with
groups.io.

I realize that there are many people out there who enjoy a brisk encounter
doing “scientific experiments” to accommodate website changes but I simply
don’t have the luxury of a lot of time to do so. When something works well
I simply stick with it. And I’m not about to jump through a dozen hoops
just to satisfy a variant introduced by just one website. I do understand
the aspects of technical progress but it has been my impression to have
companies concentrate on “neat, new & nifty” advances purely for
profit/stockholder motives is one of the issues doing damage to many people
out there from a user and cost standpoint.

Greg

Funny how upgrade usually means downgrade and yes my system does not flow as well as it did.
This page came up at the top where I could not see a place to respond.
Going back from a message on the bottom winds up at the top instead of where I was, what next?
--
Jeffeelcr

Need a new-ish computer?

discountelectronics.com -- I have half a dozen from them. Year warranty on
most. Take a look. My only financial interest is the money I save on not
buying new computers at retail.

73
Jim N6OTQ

Not having a problem at all I'm using comcast e-mail with MS Echo in WIN10. Receive all emails with posts and can answer in the post or as a new message in the web site.

Jim O

Thanks to all who suggested purchase of a used computer instead of a new one. Been there, done that. Had good and bad experiences. Some people don’t mention that there may be intermittent problems or other issues with a unit. For new Dell’s offerings range around $500 to $700 for a new machine. That doesn’t necessarily include some of the extra bells and whistles (rapidly approaching $1k).

But this doesn’t address the elephant in the room… having to either upgrade (sometimes purchase) legacy software or purchase new at a cost. That is the big chunk of money.

I relation to this there is the client issue who may have equipment operating in the field that is supported by legacy software that may now no longer be available due to the manufacturer no longer in business. I can’t tell them to purchase new equipment if they cannot afford it. I recently inquired tech services at one company for a legacy software upgrade that was no longer available to find out that one of the agents remember having that upgrade stashed in his software collection he saved from the dumpster. Problem solved when a 3-1/2” floppy arrived in the mail (had security stuff embedded on the disk to prevent copying or downloads).

Some of the legacy software media I am exposed to include floppies, PCMCIA cards, even Casio cards & ZIP media, and a few other very esoteric items. Equipment interfaces frequently include RS232 requiring laptops with mating ports (USB dongles don’t necessarily work). I have a small laptop running WIN 3.1 to help one client who has some DOS/WIN control software. Tried emulators to get that to operate under later WIN OSs with no success.

In all many of these systems have been operating for many decades with few problems and people don’t really have an incentive to change until something really catches fire.

(Speaking of real legacy, I might also add that the US Air Force finally migrated away from using 8 inch floppies in their Minuteman missile launch control facilities five or so years ago. Legacy? A bit.)

Greg