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First, a bit of back story, I did not build this airframe.. it was started in 80's and ?90's. I took over this project from Jim Howell.. I only have a photo album full of actual pictures of the original build..otherwise we're trying to finish this airplane without much info.
I bought Matco MC5 and am trying to set them up and the brake geometry has got us scratching?our heads. The lower tabs anre not exactly welded straight, not sure if there was a reason as to why, or perhaps trying to match the build of the pedals. Toe brakes have the upper arms welded on top of the pedals (Unlike what JC has said to weld them lower on the upper toe brake parts) which add to the angle being wrong..? I am trying to figure out if I should just rebuild the lower mounting tabs to lower the MC's all together to get the angles right? Here are some pictures. One pic from the original builder as he was testing them out, but I cant think that taxi'ing around would also actuate the brakes based on the location and the angle of the MC's.?
I also can have Matco swap out the shafts to their shorter shafts which *I THINK* would achieve the same effect as lowering the lower mounting points??
Any thoughts, other pics, suggestions, advice highly appreciated!
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Andy
However you do it, i think you are going to have to move the tabs down on the pedals because i don't think you will get enough leverage the way they are now..? the are some good articles on the Internet about brake geometry.??
My guess is you would have to lower the whole mc in order to make it work.? But if you can get shorter rods that could work. I think you will need to move the tabs down at least 1/2 ways down the pedal.?
Keith
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The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope
Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Should be close to a parallelo
gram.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Toes only on the rudder pedals.?
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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While the brake part stays vertical, no brake should be applied.
El jue, 27 de feb. de 2025 a la(s) 16:48, David Powell via groups.io <dpowell102459@...> escribi¨®: Toes only on the rudder pedals.? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike?
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via groups.io <iwillfly4food@...> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike?
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Do it like this.? It solves the lack of pressure due to lever arm.? The geometry has been discussed ad infinitum...
I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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My Buttercup plans show one way for this
Do it like this.? It solves the lack of pressure due to lever arm.? The geometry has been discussed ad infinitum...
I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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The pictures I sent were of Earl's final setup... You can see that the "horn" was lowered twice, and the link plates allow much more leverage and therefore hydraulic force applied to the calipers.? Earl worked this out with Matco people in person at Oshkosh at least 18 years ago...
Keith recently sent pictures of his build of the cylinder mounting geometry and it looks like the drawing you sent.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 5:11?PM Sean Pitkin via <seanpitkin68= [email protected]> wrote: My Buttercup plans show one way for this
Do it like this.? It solves the lack of pressure due to lever arm.? The geometry has been discussed ad infinitum...
I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in. Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Clement method, works great lasts a long time no issues with inadvertent brake application. I don't do hammerheads in the Tailwind so no need for much rudder except taxiing in a strong wind.?
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 04:24:21 PM MST, DjD via groups.io <twind.dan@...> wrote:
The pictures I sent were of Earl's final setup... You can see that the "horn" was lowered twice, and the link plates allow much more leverage and therefore hydraulic force applied to the calipers.? Earl worked this out with Matco people in person at Oshkosh at least 18 years ago...
Keith recently sent pictures of his build of the cylinder mounting geometry and it looks like the drawing you sent.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 5:11?PM Sean Pitkin via <seanpitkin68= [email protected]> wrote: My Buttercup plans show one way for this
Do it like this.? It solves the lack of pressure due to lever arm.? The geometry has been discussed ad infinitum...
I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in. Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Andy,
I did like exactly like your proposed setup.? When I did my first engine run I had two people on the wings helping to keep the plane from rolling.? Now, the brakes hadn't been broken in yet.? But, I went ahead and installed Matco's brake intensifier kit on the master cylinders and now it works perfect.? Even though the brake pedal rocks forward a little bit with rudder.? It isn't a problem.?
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 03:16:17 PM CST, Andy via groups.io <hypnofonic@...> wrote:
I¡¯ve been trying to figure out my redesign as the way it was built won¡¯t work. Thank you all for replies and links been reading alot on this.. I drew up my current setup and proposed setup. Not truly to scale but close-ish, just helps me visualize what I will need to do¡?
Brady, one of the key things to making the geometry on the pedals work is to keep the base of the master cylinder as close to the pivot point of the rudder padal I did this and when I press on the rudder pedal the brake pedal moves with the rudder pedal without applying the brakes, to get braking action I just use the top part of my foot to apply brakes like on a old cessna 172
On Thursday, February 27, 2025 at 01:59:13 PM CST, Michael Richardson via <iwillfly4food= [email protected]> wrote:
Here is how I solved the excess MC push rod length.? What you see is a 3/8 x 3/4 x 1.5" long piece of key stock, drilled and tapped to thread onto the MC with a jam nut, drilled hole for the pedal connection and use a waffer disc to cut the slot for pedal connection to fit in.   Mike? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Keith Klos
Merle W
Brady William Cope
Alex Frizzell
