Keyboard Shortcuts
ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
ctrl + shift + f :
Find
ctrl + / :
Quick actions
esc to dismiss
Likes
Search
Steering in reverse
|
Yuuuuuup.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Copying and pasting a long reply I wrote to someone else, who was more new to sailing and single handing, with a different cut-away-full-keel boat, on Reddit, a while ago: --------8<------- Guessing she's similar to other cut-away-full-keel designs in that you basically don't have steerage in reverse. Any current will grab your keel and spin you stern down current. Any wind will grab your mast and spin you bow down wind. Prop walk might spin you too. Hopefully you don't actually have current in your marina. That simplifies calculations a lot, not to. For the most part, you need to anticipate what the boat is going to do and simply not leave the berth if she's going to do something you're not prepared to deal with. demonstrates maintaining way backwards while using forward thrust to make adjustments in which way you're pointing. A long time ago, I read that "backing then going forward repeatedly seldom works out well" but being able to do exactly that successfully is often what you need to do. If wind and current aren't spinning you faster than you can cope with by backing to give yourself room ahead of you then going forward with steering, you're okay. If conditions are relatively calm, do everything slowly... back only to maybe 2mph max, and forward to the same when you go forward. Getting out of the slip, you'll probably either be slowly and gently sliding along bumpers and/or walking the boat back so she's already hanging out a bit. Having help casting off lines is nice but if conditions are agreeable and you tolerate some sliding against fenders, single-handing is possible. I try to balance the boat so the that she's hanging from one line by the cockpit. It might be a line around a pylon. Then I can undo one cleat and pull the line free of the pylon all at once and make sure it's on board and free of lines that pull it overboard, then gently reverse out. Remember that rubbing things slowly is far better than hitting things quickly. Error on the side of calm. Have a plan B. If you can't get pointed how you want, have lines on the stern in larks heads you can quickly pull out so you jump on to the end of a finger with a line and snub it then reel the boat back in. Then if things go south, all you have to do is slowly come along side something. Likewise if you're going slow, you can throw the engine in neutral and run forward with a boat hook or broom or oar and gently fend the boat off of other boats and docks. I find 1-2mph offers a good mix of steerage and ability to manually intervene with a 27' boat's mass in fending the bow, jumping off and catching the boat and physically controlling her, etc. You can still give bursts of power but keep your actual speed well under control. Another useful trick for full-keel and cut-away-full-keel boats is rudder sculling. Pushing the tiller firmly to one side, pausing for a fraction of a second, then pushing firmly the other direction creates thrust. You can do that directionally, pushing firmly in one direction but mostly letting the tiller straighten on its own the other way, or on focusing your sweep towards one side. Doing that focused on one side with one or both of those techniques turns you even when you're not making way or going very slowly. That's something you can practise in the berth with docklines slacked. Depending on which way your prop spins in forward and reverse, prop walk will be opposite. Test giving bursts in forward and reverse in your berth with lines slacked too. I know that's a lot of stuff, but like sailing, this is really about having a Plan B, Plan C, Plan D, etc. I've seen owners of fancy new highly maneuverable yachts hit the rocks because they stubbornly persisted in trying to do things one way when it wasn't working. There's plenty of time later for a postmortum on why prop walk or making way in reverse while giving thrusts forward or whatever technique didn't work. For now, just put her in neutral and run forward and fend or grab a finger end or some empty slip. More than anything else, go slow and come and go in calm conditions with light traffic while you're getting the hang of it and build confidence and skill that way. If there's a slip on the end of a dock that's relatively open or even a large fuel or pump out dock that's wide open, practise coming and going from that. If you're ever coming in and it's blowing and you don't feel like you can make it in to your own slip, stay at the pump out dock until it's calm. Always Plan B, C, D. You're half Manatee and half seabird. There's no room for pride. Any time you can test something before doing it, do so. Want to know what the wind is going to do to your boat? Slack lines in the berth and push her to wind ward and watch what happens. Want to know how much time you have to get out of the slip before the wind pushes your bow in to the finger? Slack lines and push the boat away and count the seconds. Do dry runs with at least one line still attached and see what she does when you start to push her stern out clear of the finger if you're bow-to-wind right now. Push her all of the way out so she hands from a bow line but make sure you have plenty of line and know how to snub it and keep your hands well away from cleats while wrapping line around to snub. Consider trading your slip for one where you're bow-to-wind if you don't already have that. It makes coming and going in sailcraft easier. --------8<------- Pasted in its entirety in case any of the extra bits are helpful, with apologies for the wall of text. Definitely check out that youtube video link of using forward thrust to steer while making way backwards. Welcome, and congratuations on your boat purchase. Obviously, we're fans here =) -scott On 0, Howard Fidel <howard@...> wrote:
We bought our Tartan this past summer, and have observed that it is |
|
Howard,
Welcome to boat ownership, T27 boat ownership specifically.?
So you have discovered that backing up a Tartan 27' is not as easy as you had hoped it would be.? Most of us have been there at one time or another.??
I think one of the main issues is that with a 2 blade prop (what is on your boat?) the inboard engine has a hard time making the T27 go straight back, no matter which way the tiller is pointing.? There is prop walk so my boat usually pulls the stern to the right, not straight back.? The tiller has little effect until there is some water flow passing over it.? Turning the tiller to the left or right mostly acts as a brake with slight turning ability going in reverse.? The tiller all the way over going forward also applies some braking to your speed.
My advice when backing out of a slip is to have the engine in neutral and the tiller down the centerline (middle), then you start pushing the boat (or pulling on some arranged line) so that it starts moving backwards.? Once your boat starts moving (doesn't have to be fast, just moving as there is a lot of inertia stored in the 7200 #'s of boat, then you engage reverse and the boat will continue to (mostly) move in the direction it was moving when you pushed it.? The more speed, the more water flow over the rudder, the more it will steer a little in reverse.? It will never work as well as it does going forward so you will have to experiment with this - I expect slight deviations from the center line from the boat should work best rather than hard over this way or that.
So arrange some lines from nearby pilings or docks that you can use to help get your boat moving by heaving on them.? You could even winch on those lines.
Congrats.
Best, Caleb D.
T27 #328
?? -----Original Message-----
From: Howard Fidel <howard@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2020 3:27 pm Subject: [T27Owners] Steering in reverse We bought our Tartan this past summer, and have observed that it is nearly impossible to steer the boat with the tiller when backing out of the slip. I was wondering if this is a common problem with this boat, and if anyone has a solution.
Thanks, Howard
|
|
Good tips all.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sep 24, 2020, at 3:42 PM, aksjghkajshd <scott@...> wrote: |
|
I find the wind dictates best way. It pushes the bow regardless of what I do with the rudder so I just go with it. If it pushes the bow in the direction I need to go, great, if not I back out and do a U turn.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Thursday, September 24, 2020, 3:27 PM, Howard Fidel <howard@...> wrote:
|
|
Robert Hauge
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýCommon problem, practice it will get easier . Backing into a slip is even harder. It¡¯s a great sailing boat however. All the best , Hull 700.On Sep 24, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Howard Fidel <howard@...> wrote:
|
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýAgree with what¡¯s been said.?Gotta add my two bits. No shame in bringing a line over to an upwind dock finger or piling to pull yourself out of a difficult spot! Very seaman-like.?Marty Marty Levenson Poseidon? Bowen Island, BC ? sent by carrier pigeon ? On Sep 24, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Robert Hauge via groups.io <r.hauge@...> wrote:
|
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýThanks for posting the YouTube instructions. ?The timing was perfect, as I spent a good deal of time on a windless day yesterday, practicing backing into my slip. Going forward is much more satisfactory!Robin
|
|
As others have noted, it's not you, it's the boat. There is no shame in using lines, bumpers, and other devices to make the boat do what you want. The aim of docking is to be in control at all times. There is no bonus prize for only using the engine and rudder.The upside is that the T27 handles very well at slow speeds in forward. I also sail an Ericson 34. That handles almost as well in reverse as it does in forward. However -- once you drop below 1.5 knots, you lose almost all steerage (in forward or reverse). With the Tartan 27 I can still steer at very slow speeds. On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 3:27 PM Howard Fidel <howard@...> wrote:
|
|
The best way I have found to control reversing, such as leaving a mooring string, is to give the engine a burst of power in reverse followed by returning the engine to neutral.
Place the rudder in neutral or slightly off in the direction you want to go prior to the burst, then when some steerage is gained by the burst of power slowly move the rudder to just coax the stern in the desired direction. Returning the engine to neutral negates any prop walk, which makes the rudder more effective.
However moving the tiller too much will stall it in the water, effectively loosing any control.? If needed, continue to? burst power and use pressure on the rudder pressure (which will be great) to maneuver. ? Remember, the bow will effectively be uncontrollable, so plan to maneuver accordingly.
Jim Dobbs
Morgenfrau
Norwalk CT
-----Original Message-----
From: jeremy@... To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Sep 30, 2020 10:37 am Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Steering in reverse As others have noted, it's not you, it's the boat.
There is no shame in using lines, bumpers, and other devices to make the boat do what you want. The aim of docking is to be in control at all times. There is no bonus prize for only using the engine and rudder.The upside is that the T27 handles very well at slow speeds in forward. I also sail an Ericson 34. That handles almost as well in reverse as it does in forward. However -- once you drop below 1.5 knots, you lose almost all steerage (in forward or reverse). With the Tartan 27 I can still steer at very slow speeds.
On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 3:27 PM Howard Fidel <howard@...> wrote:
|
|
carlkotheimer
I am a lurker who actually owns a Pearson 28 MK1. Beside prop walk, it has a lot of freeboard which catches the wind.? A solution we use, especially when the wind is on the starboard side and pushing the boat off the dock sideways is a spring line from the bow to a forward cleat on the dock.? While backing, crew on the foredeck feeds out the spring line?keeping the bow centered in the space until clear of the dock.? The line is dropped in the water and retrieved on returning.? As often as not, it is safer to back down the fairway to open water than to sweat trying to back right then left.? That is, one left turn until in open space where the boat can be turned going forward. On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 10:55 AM JAMES DOBBS via <jdob3542=[email protected]> wrote:
--
|
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý
All: A perhaps forgotten technique is to rig a "pier bannister" on the dock to keep the bow in as you back out. Works less well singlehanded. j From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of carlkotheimer <cjkotheimer@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2020 11:25 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Steering in reverse ?
I am a lurker who actually owns a Pearson 28 MK1. Beside prop walk, it has a lot of freeboard which catches the wind.? A solution we use, especially when the wind is on the starboard side and pushing the boat off the dock sideways is a spring
line from the bow to a forward cleat on the dock.? While backing, crew on the foredeck feeds out the spring line?keeping the bow centered in the space until clear of the dock.? The line is dropped in the water and retrieved on returning.? As often as not,
it is safer to back down the fairway to open water than to sweat trying to back right then left.? That is, one left turn until in open space where the boat can be turned going forward.
On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 10:55 AM JAMES DOBBS via
<jdob3542=[email protected]> wrote:
|
|
With the rudder hard to starboard, a sharp burst of reverse will shift the stern to port (prop walk] but only until the boat is moving. Then, keeping the rudder in the same spot, pair that with forward thrust,? until reverse movement stops. The bow will have started to turn starboard. Then, another burst in reverse until you start moving. Repeat. You can spin the boat clockwise in one spot in calm conditions. Practice until you can tell how much power it takes to counteract the forward movement. Backing up straight can be harder than turning, depending on the wind and current. Congratulations on the new boat. Great choice.?
|
|
Reverse power followed by neutral. Rudder has some effect when coasting as others have mentioned.? Careful not to over steer and stall as others have mentioned.
Back and fill,? the process of gaining way in reverse then use a short burst of forward combined with reversing the rudder to use prop wash to shove the stern in the desired direction. Then back to reverse and coast. Takes practice and doesn't always work as desired.? -- Carl Damm DAMSELv 1976 #593 Stuart Fl |
to navigate to use esc to dismiss