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Re: Amount of Outhaul Travel?
Thank you, Caleb; good to hear from you. A clam cleat WAS the intended cleating device. Problem is, clam cleats hold only in ONE direction, not both. What I need is a device to hold against either being pulled out OR pulled in. Thoughts?
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On Jun 25, 2020, at 6:15 PM, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote: |
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Re: Amount of Outhaul Travel?
Warren,
If I understand your outhaul setup correctly, wouldn't something like this mounted to the boom act to hold your control line in place? https://www.westmarine.com/buy/sea-dog--mini-clamcleat-for-1-8-1-4-rope--P002_064_002_002?pCode=115675&cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-GSC>NonB>Product%2520Type-_-115675&product_id=115675&creative=108421553284&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwltH3BRB6EiwAhj0IUNSxe-74zEVcAZd4q6y8Bj8VHUeiSn0DM3vta6rptLtLzkRUpsmIWxoCQVIQAvD_BwE
If that link doesn't work then google:? Sea Dog clam cleats
Caleb D
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2020 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Amount of Outhaul Travel? OK, here¡¯s another question for the group: ?Suggestions for an appropriate cleating device for the outhaul in my last post? ?What I think I need is, at least functionally, a pair of visegrips with rubber jaws, to easily and readily clamp or release a piece of straight 8mm line, so it can¡¯t move either way, In or out. ?It has to mount on the boom and not be a head-knocker, and not be too big; and be weatherproof.
My son and I got ambitious and moved forward with the project. ?It was a bear, but I think we¡¯ve succeeded. ?The system is basically two separate multi-part purchases, joined together by their running parts: ?The outhaul itself is Dyneema, running from the clew, into the boom, running forward internally, where it is spliced to the becket of one of two Harken three-sheave blocks, the little mini ones. ? The other ¡®side¡¯ of that 6:1 purchase is a reciprocal Harken mini, with its becket anchored to the gooseneck internally. ? So far, nothing unusual. ?But then, the running part between those two blocks, the part you¡¯d haul in or let out to control the outhaul, is then spliced to 8mm Salsa line, running outside the boom, coming out of the boom thru one exit box and re-entering the boom thru another. ? That¡¯s the only part In this system external to the boom. ? So what that means is, on the lower starboard side of the boom, running from about above the companionway, to about 15¡± in from the end of the boom, or about 7¡¯, is this Salsa line. ? If you pull it from forward to aft, it takes in the outhaul, 6:1. ? So it takes 6¡¯ of Salsa to move the outhaul 1¡¯. ? If you pull it from aft to forward, you¡¯re pulling against the shock cord take-up, but that allows the outhaul to pay out, again, 6:1.? All of this cumbersome description leads to the question: ?what sort of cleating device can anyone suggest for that Salsa line? ? It runs fore-to-aft along the boom, and its slack is automatically taken up, so at all times it¡¯s just a straight piece of line, but pull-able, either way. ? You can pull it forward; you can pull it aft. ?Either way it¡¯s just a straight tensioned piece of line. ?What I hadn¡¯t counted on was this: ? with no cleating device, if you just let it go, the shock cord take-up system goes to work, tensioning the outhaul and pulling it tight. ? I had expected to have to cleat it against pull from the sail, not the pull from the (opposing) shock cord. ? ?Now, in heavier weather, I WILL need to cleat against It being pulled OUT from the force of the main. ?But in calmer weather, it seems that I may have to cleat against it being pulled IN, by the shock cord. ? So I think what I want is some sort of small, non-head-smacking gripping device, ?Mounted on the boom above the cockpit, so I can open it easily, adjust the outhaul, and then close it, cinching the line both ways, so it can¡¯t be either pulled out by the sail or in by the shock cord. ? I¡¯m thinking of something like that Tiller-Tamer. ? ?Any ideas? ? Thanks! |
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Re: Amount of Outhaul Travel?
OK, here¡¯s another question for the group: ?Suggestions for an appropriate cleating device for the outhaul in my last post? ?What I think I need is, at least functionally, a pair of visegrips with rubber jaws, to easily and readily clamp or release a piece of straight 8mm line, so it can¡¯t move either way, In or out. ?It has to mount on the boom and not be a head-knocker, and not be too big; and be weatherproof.
My son and I got ambitious and moved forward with the project. ?It was a bear, but I think we¡¯ve succeeded. ?The system is basically two separate multi-part purchases, joined together by their running parts: ?The outhaul itself is Dyneema, running from the clew, into the boom, running forward internally, where it is spliced to the becket of one of two Harken three-sheave blocks, the little mini ones. ? The other ¡®side¡¯ of that 6:1 purchase is a reciprocal Harken mini, with its becket anchored to the gooseneck internally. ? So far, nothing unusual. ?But then, the running part between those two blocks, the part you¡¯d haul in or let out to control the outhaul, is then spliced to 8mm Salsa line, running outside the boom, coming out of the boom thru one exit box and re-entering the boom thru another. ? That¡¯s the only part In this system external to the boom. ? So what that means is, on the lower starboard side of the boom, running from about above the companionway, to about 15¡± in from the end of the boom, or about 7¡¯, is this Salsa line. ? If you pull it from forward to aft, it takes in the outhaul, 6:1. ? So it takes 6¡¯ of Salsa to move the outhaul 1¡¯. ? If you pull it from aft to forward, you¡¯re pulling against the shock cord take-up, but that allows the outhaul to pay out, again, 6:1.? All of this cumbersome description leads to the question: ?what sort of cleating device can anyone suggest for that Salsa line? ? It runs fore-to-aft along the boom, and its slack is automatically taken up, so at all times it¡¯s just a straight piece of line, but pull-able, either way. ? You can pull it forward; you can pull it aft. ?Either way it¡¯s just a straight tensioned piece of line. ?What I hadn¡¯t counted on was this: ? with no cleating device, if you just let it go, the shock cord take-up system goes to work, tensioning the outhaul and pulling it tight. ? I had expected to have to cleat it against pull from the sail, not the pull from the (opposing) shock cord. ? ?Now, in heavier weather, I WILL need to cleat against It being pulled OUT from the force of the main. ?But in calmer weather, it seems that I may have to cleat against it being pulled IN, by the shock cord. ? So I think what I want is some sort of small, non-head-smacking gripping device, ?Mounted on the boom above the cockpit, so I can open it easily, adjust the outhaul, and then close it, cinching the line both ways, so it can¡¯t be either pulled out by the sail or in by the shock cord. ? I¡¯m thinking of something like that Tiller-Tamer. ? ?Any ideas? ? Thanks! |
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Amount of Outhaul Travel?
I¡¯m installing a new outhaul system with a 6:1 purchase internal to the boom. ? Can anyone offer guesstimates of how much actual travel distance to allow for the outhaul, from ?a fully flattened sail, to one let all the way out? ? 6¡±? ?12¡±? ?More? ? The main is loose-footed and I¡¯ve never had one of those. ? I¡¯m aware of using a velcro¡¯d strap to secure the clew ring, allowing it to slide along the boom; but how much travel should I allow for?
I want to make sure I¡¯ve allowed for ample travel, but at 6:1 the amount of tail could get excessive if I¡¯m allowing way more than is reasonable. ? Since I am The Lord of Overkill, I¡¯m running that tail thru an exit box, then outside the boom for about 7¡¯ over the cockpit, then back into the boom thru another exit box, where a shock cord system takes it up. ? In other words, no accumulation of line hanging in my face. ?Instead, all you see is a 7¡¯ length of (salsa) line outside of and parallel to the boom. ? To adjust the outhaul, I¡¯ll grab it and pull it aft, and the ¡®tail¡¯ generated by that action will be pulled into the boom by the shock cord system. ?The ¡®setting¡¯ will lock in place with a clam cleat. ?? Thanks! ? ?Warren Stein ?? |
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Re: Replacing wire runing rigging with Dyneema
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýThe rope to wire splice is the weak link, my Dynema is thicker than you would think, much larger than the wire that rode on the shives. It¡¯s a simple remedy for outdated technology?On Jun 21, 2020, at 6:05 PM, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote:
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Re: Replacing wire runing rigging with Dyneema
Cyric Halyards that small will be hard to handle, will not fit a clutch or winch, and will be very slippery as well. Better choice is a braid with a vectran or dyneema core of 5/16 or 3/8 diameter.? On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 3:05 PM j c <anvil3a@...> wrote: On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 01:28 PM, Richard Elmquist wrote: --
Cheers Brian |
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Re: Replacing wire runing rigging with Dyneema
On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 01:28 PM, Richard Elmquist wrote:
Cyric,Hello Mr. Elmquist Thanks for the info. i have thankfully have the .pdf of the Tartan Handbook. it lists the wire part of the halyard as 1/8in.? the breaking and working strengths of 7x19 316 stainless cable is?1,670 lbs and?335 lbs give or take according?to the info i have found. I found this on west marine, the 1/8in has a breaking strength of 1200 ibs, which doesn't measure up, but the 5/32 which is 1mm bigger has a strength of 1900 ibs. i don't think the extra MM of size should interfere with things much?? im just trying to figure this all out i guess. |
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Re: Replacing wire runing rigging with Dyneema
Cyric,
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I don¡¯t know what size DyNema I used, my rigger friend did not have to remove the jacket. Runs like butter with the original equipment! The shives are close together, When hoisting the man I have to keep the thumb tab on the locking pin opposite the other shive line. I installed a PVC conduit which holds all the wiring and keeps things from slapping, Good luck Rich 440 Naughty Lass On Jun 20, 2020, at 10:42 PM, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote: |
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Replacing wire runing rigging with Dyneema
Hay all.
Since i got my mast cap off and can inspect everything. i thought i might replace the runing rigging wire halyards with Dyneema or other quality synthetic line. To do away with the old wire, one has already been replaced by standard size line, but it does not run very freely and i see it wearing excessively due to its larger size in the smaller sheave. so i thought i might replace it with 1/8 Dyneema (tartan book says wire is 1/8?) would be easier. what is everyone's thought on this? i did a search, but only came up with Dyneema for centerboard use.so thought i should ask specifically.? Thank you all for your time and attention Cyric |
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Re: Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
A note on the masthead sheaves (pulleys):
When they made the T27 type 1's the trend was to use a wire/rope halyard which was part wire and a spliced on section of rope.? The wire sections went through the mast to the top and conncected to a bit of rope.? To accommodate this Tartan installed "V" shaped sheaves in the sheave box (to handle the wire section).? For all rope halyards it is advisable to either re-shape the sheaves as I think Warren Stein described or get new "U" shaped sheaves which are more accommodating for rope.? The "V" shaped sheaves can handle modern rope but expect some chafing of the rope's outer cover in the places it goes through the sheave under pressure.? I think I used to replace my halyards about every 10 years as by then the cover was shot from chafing.? It is not a bad idea to inspect your sheave box if your mast is down to see what condition the original sheaves are in, as they can be abraded by the wire rope and have sharp edges showing if they are badly worn, which will chafe your rope halyard quickly.
Modern ropes like dyneema have made the wire/rope halyard mostly obsolete for boats around 27'.? Even Stay-Set-X did not exist when our boats were made.
As you were.
Caleb D
T27 #328
ny
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-----Original Message-----
From: fred4936 via groups.io <fred4936@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2020 8:12 pm Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question I rewired our mast a few years ago. It is a 27-2, so not sure if it is the same. The cap has some screws that go in from the side. Probably habe to be drilled out to get cap off. But you probably do not have to. I rewired mine with it on. I also replaced the two sheaves while it was down. With the sheaves out there was plenty of room. They use clevis pins as axles.? I think I used a snake to pull a messenger through, then pulled down the new harness with it. Zip ties were installed every 2-3 feet with tells left on in groups of three, so they can't slap inside, which was very annoying. There were two harnesses actually. One went all the way up, the other went to the bow light, foredeck light. There was a channel to house the wires, but it only went up the the bow light. The old wiring was not secured. Come to think of it, I may of used the old co-axial cable as the first messenger.
Fred Liesegang
Eagle #662
On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 06:33:48 PM EDT, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote:
Hay All
This is a bit of a 2 part question I have my Mast down, so was checking the wiring, and found the mast had been rewired (YAAAaaaa). But the old wires where still in the mast just cut about 6" in (BOOoooo), and they are in there good, wont budge, wont pull out, and dont want to pull to hard for messing something else up. does anyone know how the original wires where attached, and how to take them lose? The second question is kind of related to the first, i also would like to run a new radio cable to the mast top and was wondering does the cap on the mast top come off? and if so How? Any help anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. |
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Re: Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
I have not looked at my mast for last 5 years been in storage @ $75 per year. Plan on getting it out within the next few weeks . Plan in launching end of July . Will have plenty of pictures and questions coming up !
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On Jun 16, 2020, at 6:33 PM, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote: |
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Re: Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
I rewired our mast a few years ago. It is a 27-2, so not sure if it is the same. The cap has some screws that go in from the side. Probably habe to be drilled out to get cap off. But you probably do not have to. I rewired mine with it on. I also replaced the two sheaves while it was down. With the sheaves out there was plenty of room. They use clevis pins as axles.? I think I used a snake to pull a messenger through, then pulled down the new harness with it. Zip ties were installed every 2-3 feet with tells left on in groups of three, so they can't slap inside, which was very annoying. There were two harnesses actually. One went all the way up, the other went to the bow light, foredeck light. There was a channel to house the wires, but it only went up the the bow light. The old wiring was not secured. Come to think of it, I may of used the old co-axial cable as the first messenger. Fred Liesegang Eagle #662
On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 06:33:48 PM EDT, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote:
Hay All This is a bit of a 2 part question I have my Mast down, so was checking the wiring, and found the mast had been rewired (YAAAaaaa). But the old wires where still in the mast just cut about 6" in (BOOoooo), and they are in there good, wont budge, wont pull out, and dont want to pull to hard for messing something else up. does anyone know how the original wires where attached, and how to take them lose? The second question is kind of related to the first, i also would like to run a new radio cable to the mast top and was wondering does the cap on the mast top come off? and if so How? Any help anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. |
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Re: Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
Weeeelllllllllll......Yeah, I¡¯ve done that. Yes, there will be corrosion. I used some sort of penetrating oil, I don¡¯t remember what, and lots of patience, but all the screws came out. I think I used an impact driver, but gingerly. Once I had them out I drilled them a size larger and re-tapped. Bigger screws have a bigger cross-section relative to their circumference, which is where the threads (and the corrosion) are; so bigger screws (machine screws) are probably less likely to shear off. So while it was out I rebuilt the sheave box. That was a hassle, because the aluminum side plates had holes that had worn oval, so the sheaves would bind, so I had to make new sideplates. Got new bushings for the sheaves, I think on Ebay. Found a way to chuck the old sheaves in my drill press and clean them up with emery cloth. But the end result was good-as-new. It¡¯s a LOT easier to run wires with the cap off. Can¡¯t speak to old wires, for mine had been renewed at one time. If you run a conduit (to keep things protected and QUIET at anchor) consider making it bigger than you think you need. Your wires will be pulled far more easily, and god-only-knows what the next electrical development will be, in terms of future ability to upgrade. Honestly, relative to the labor involved, the wire, even the good marine tinned stuff, is cheap, so you might consider going all new, considering that IF yours is original, it¡¯s no newer than what? 1979? What¡¯s it cost to pull the mast mid-season if an old wire goes wonky? FWIW. Warren Stein
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On Jun 16, 2020, at 6:33 PM, j c <anvil3a@...> wrote: |
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Re: Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
Hi,
I'm not sure how the original mast wires were attached inside the mast.? Presumably with a few rivets to secure them at a few points - just guessing here really.
I have looked pretty closely at the top of my mast and I am pretty sure that the cap or top can be taken off.? Expect some difficulty with this as you may have stainless screws in the aluminum mast - hence some corrosion.? There is also the small problem of the masthead sheaves (pulleys) for the halyards, which are located just below the mast cap and may be difficult to thread a wire around.? The spreaders may also offer some obstruction as well but could be removed temporarily.? I would use an electricians snake tool to thread your wire through the obstructions in there.
Good luck.
Caleb D
T27 #328
NY
-----Original Message-----
From: j c <anvil3a@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2020 6:33 pm Subject: [T27Owners] Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question Hay All
This is a bit of a 2 part question I have my Mast down, so was checking the wiring, and found the mast had been rewired (YAAAaaaa). But the old wires where still in the mast just cut about 6" in (BOOoooo), and they are in there good, wont budge, wont pull out, and dont want to pull to hard for messing something else up. does anyone know how the original wires where attached, and how to take them lose? The second question is kind of related to the first, i also would like to run a new radio cable to the mast top and was wondering does the cap on the mast top come off? and if so How? Any help anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. |
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Removing old mast wires, and mast cap question
Hay All
This is a bit of a 2 part question I have my Mast down, so was checking the wiring, and found the mast had been rewired (YAAAaaaa). But the old wires where still in the mast just cut about 6" in (BOOoooo), and they are in there good, wont budge, wont pull out, and dont want to pull to hard for messing something else up. does anyone know how the original wires where attached, and how to take them lose? The second question is kind of related to the first, i also would like to run a new radio cable to the mast top and was wondering does the cap on the mast top come off? and if so How? Any help anyone may have would be greatly appreciated. |
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Re: Isla Bleu Tartan 27-2 Hull 688 introduction
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On Jun 14, 2020, at 10:29 PM, a41967t27 <martylev@...> wrote:
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Re: Isla Bleu Tartan 27-2 Hull 688 introduction
¿ªÔÆÌåÓý"The T27 is a very forgiving boat." Marty? "Poseidon"
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Re: Isla Bleu Tartan 27-2 Hull 688 introduction
Ah. Sailing under headsail alone.??
Highly recommended for sailing back onto a mooring as the genoa can be furled easily versus taking down a main sail and since the boat will be going slower it is easier to stop in place once you face into the current.
Also highly recommended after you have skied the mainsail halyard.? I got to sail #328 about 8 miles without the main sail on the gusty Hudson River near the Hudson Highlands which can cause some erratic gusty winds in the valleys.? Pretty sure we were hitting hull speed with the genoa alone in some of the 25+ knot gusts that came down off the hills.? I was surprised at how much the boat still wanted to round up as the gusts hit with only the jib.??
The T27 is a very forgiving boat.
Caleb D
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Pearson via groups.io <Bigisland27@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, Jun 14, 2020 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Isla Bleu Tartan 27-2 Hull 688 introduction That looks pretty good!!? I am thinking about just attaching to metal casting.? I am not sure up underneath it as I have not taking the wood paneling off to see how backing plate looks or what would need to be added.
Today my Yanmar went out just after pulling up anchor after a night out.? Had the wind to my back on the way back in and I dropped the main sail and went into the marina with just the Genoa.? I was surprised at how well she sails with just a headsail.? I had called ahead and had some help from the marina in case things went wrong.? We made our way safely through a very crowded marina area and pulled in the headsail when we made the final turn into our dock and coasted the rest of the way into the slip.? My wife said she had complete confidence that it was going to work great.? I was very nervous a sudden shift in the wind would drive us where we wouldn¡¯t have control.? Im sure people must have thought I knew what I was doing.? Whew!! Fun times!! Glenn Isla Bleu 688 > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:48 PM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote: > > ?So we are on the middle of re-core on the fore deck. Adding an anchor roller(lewmar long) about 23 inches.? I wanted to bring the structure well inboard for leverage.? I have a 22lbs Vulcan. I am going on top of the glass directly against the edge of the stem head casting. This brings the anchor neatly close without chafing the bow. Also I will have a second roller matching on the other side.? We anchor in a lot of current and I like getting two hooks down. Especially if the tide will be reversing. The new caprail will get fitted against the roller. > We had move the fairleads aft about 4 inches. > On the 27-2 bow could you move the fairleads aft? Off the stem head casting.? The roller could run on top of the casting. > If you pick up a roller from somewhere with an easy return policy you could play with it. My whole plan. Changed whe I carried the roller and anchor up on the bow. > -- > Carl Damm > DAMSELv > 1976 #593 > Stuart Fl |
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Re: Isla Bleu Tartan 27-2 Hull 688 introduction
That looks pretty good!! I am thinking about just attaching to metal casting. I am not sure up underneath it as I have not taking the wood paneling off to see how backing plate looks or what would need to be added.
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Today my Yanmar went out just after pulling up anchor after a night out. Had the wind to my back on the way back in and I dropped the main sail and went into the marina with just the Genoa. I was surprised at how well she sails with just a headsail. I had called ahead and had some help from the marina in case things went wrong. We made our way safely through a very crowded marina area and pulled in the headsail when we made the final turn into our dock and coasted the rest of the way into the slip. My wife said she had complete confidence that it was going to work great. I was very nervous a sudden shift in the wind would drive us where we wouldn¡¯t have control. Im sure people must have thought I knew what I was doing. Whew!! Fun times!! Glenn Isla Bleu 688 On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:48 PM, Carl Damm <cfdamm@...> wrote: |
Glenn Pearson
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