The best on-line tutorial on Stuffing Boxes is here:??https://marinehowto.com/re-packing-a-traditional-stuffing-box/
Study it well before you attempt any boat yoga trying to access this spot.
Scott spotted and noted the rustic looking hose clamps that should be replaced (and yes, you need 2 for all under waterline applications).??
I will add that it is probably time to replace the packing (that goes into the stuffing box) as this is a maintenance/wear item that should be replaced something like every 10 years, or sooner.? I believe the marinehowto page makes a reccommendation on which packing to use.? Interestingly they do not call it "stuffing" that goes into a "stuffing box".? It is more like you just put "stuff" in there that will wear down over time while keeping your boat mostly dry.??
I have done this a couple of times and it is not so difficult that it can't be done with the boat in the water.? You just need to plan ahead so the job goes smoothly and quickly.? If you replace the packing material it may take some minor adjustments in the beginning to get the # of drips to where you want it.? You should be able to get it mostly dry with the shaft not spinning and only a few drips per minute with the shaft rotating.
Best of luck with this.
Caleb D.
T27 #328
?
-----Original Message-----
From: aksjghkajshd <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Nov 12, 2020 3:54 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Stuffing Box
In the picture, 4 doesn't look like it's immediately next to a nut but it looks like 2 in the most astern nut and 3 the slightly forward one. 2 and 3 are currently screwed against each other.? 3 is a "locknut". Friction against 2 and against the threads keep it and 2 from moving. So you'd back 3 off of 2 a bit, with a wrench on each, then tighten 2 a bit, then with two wrenches again, tighten 3 on to 2 while keeping 2 from moving. It may be time to replace the stuffing in the stuffing box. And that rusted stainless on the hose clamps is no good.? Can you replace those, one at a time? Hmm, someone else was just telling me about stuffing boxes a few months back. Water looks incredible. And yup, not a fun position.? I spent a lot of time cleaning up bilge paint and rough fiberglass under the stern tube before laying up more fiberglass, apparently due to cracking from the wrong size cutlass bearings being hammered in creating a spiderweb of cracks. Good luck! -scott On? 0, patrick.mcgough@... wrote: >? ? How appropriate to be talking about stuffing 2 weeks before >? ? Thanksgiving...oh wait a second....not the same type of stuffing!!!!! > > >? ? I am looking for a little help here with my Tartan 27 and the stuffing >? ? box and the packing and adjustments.? I have my Tartan 27 right out >? ? back on my pier so it is right here to monitor and keep an eye on, and >? ? so I went out to start her up and run her for a bit and check on the >? ? drip that is supposed to be 1-2 drops per minute is more like a steady >? ? stream. > > >? ? It is a tight fit for my 250# girth sliding in along the engine and so >? ? I want to make sure I get it right when I try and stop or slow this >? ? drop. > >? ? Here is a picture.? The drop is coming from right around #4.? Is that >? ? where it is supposed to drip?? What do I want to adjust and which way >? ? do I want to adjust them in?? I can go take more pictures and video, >? ? but I thought labeling this picture might at least start a discussion. > > >? ? Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.? I am not in risk of >? ? sinking as the water isn't that deep anyway...in the other picture you >? ? can see how she was high and dry just a little bit ago... > > >? ? [cid: image002.jpg@...] >? ? [cid: image004.jpg@...]
>
>
>? ? Patrick
>
>
>
|
Yes that is correct location for drip.
A constant stream is not acceptable though as things are beginning to get loose and will eventually become significantly worse.
The stuffing box on the 27 is fairly easy to access despite your circumferential limitations. Some modifications of access panels might help.. it¡¯s important to be able access this area.. I did some cutting on my current boat!???
Richard Shearley
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 12, 2020, at 15:54, aksjghkajshd <scott@...> wrote:
?In the picture, 4 doesn't look like it's immediately next to a nut
but it looks like 2 in the most astern nut and 3 the slightly forward
one.
2 and 3 are currently screwed against each other. 3 is a "locknut".
Friction against 2 and against the threads keep it and 2 from moving.
So you'd back 3 off of 2 a bit, with a wrench on each, then tighten
2 a bit, then with two wrenches again, tighten 3 on to 2 while keeping
2 from moving.
It may be time to replace the stuffing in the stuffing box.
And that rusted stainless on the hose clamps is no good. Can you replace
those, one at a time?
Hmm, someone else was just telling me about stuffing boxes a few
months back.
Water looks incredible.
And yup, not a fun position. I spent a lot of time cleaning up bilge
paint and rough fiberglass under the stern tube before laying up more
fiberglass, apparently due to cracking from the wrong size cutlass
bearings being hammered in creating a spiderweb of cracks.
Good luck!
-scott
On 0, patrick.mcgough@... wrote:
How appropriate to be talking about stuffing 2 weeks before
Thanksgiving...oh wait a second....not the same type of stuffing!!!!!
I am looking for a little help here with my Tartan 27 and the stuffing
box and the packing and adjustments. I have my Tartan 27 right out
back on my pier so it is right here to monitor and keep an eye on, and
so I went out to start her up and run her for a bit and check on the
drip that is supposed to be 1-2 drops per minute is more like a steady
stream.
It is a tight fit for my 250# girth sliding in along the engine and so
I want to make sure I get it right when I try and stop or slow this
drop.
Here is a picture. The drop is coming from right around #4. Is that
where it is supposed to drip? What do I want to adjust and which way
do I want to adjust them in? I can go take more pictures and video,
but I thought labeling this picture might at least start a discussion.
Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. I am not in risk of
sinking as the water isn't that deep anyway...in the other picture you
can see how she was high and dry just a little bit ago...
[cid:image002.jpg@...]
[cid:image004.jpg@...]
Patrick
|
In the picture, 4 doesn't look like it's immediately next to a nut
but it looks like 2 in the most astern nut and 3 the slightly forward
one.
2 and 3 are currently screwed against each other. 3 is a "locknut".
Friction against 2 and against the threads keep it and 2 from moving.
So you'd back 3 off of 2 a bit, with a wrench on each, then tighten
2 a bit, then with two wrenches again, tighten 3 on to 2 while keeping
2 from moving.
It may be time to replace the stuffing in the stuffing box.
And that rusted stainless on the hose clamps is no good. Can you replace
those, one at a time?
Hmm, someone else was just telling me about stuffing boxes a few
months back.
Water looks incredible.
And yup, not a fun position. I spent a lot of time cleaning up bilge
paint and rough fiberglass under the stern tube before laying up more
fiberglass, apparently due to cracking from the wrong size cutlass
bearings being hammered in creating a spiderweb of cracks.
Good luck!
-scott
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 0, patrick.mcgough@... wrote: How appropriate to be talking about stuffing 2 weeks before
Thanksgiving...oh wait a second....not the same type of stuffing!!!!!
I am looking for a little help here with my Tartan 27 and the stuffing
box and the packing and adjustments. I have my Tartan 27 right out
back on my pier so it is right here to monitor and keep an eye on, and
so I went out to start her up and run her for a bit and check on the
drip that is supposed to be 1-2 drops per minute is more like a steady
stream.
It is a tight fit for my 250# girth sliding in along the engine and so
I want to make sure I get it right when I try and stop or slow this
drop.
Here is a picture. The drop is coming from right around #4. Is that
where it is supposed to drip? What do I want to adjust and which way
do I want to adjust them in? I can go take more pictures and video,
but I thought labeling this picture might at least start a discussion.
Thank you in advance for any help you can provide. I am not in risk of
sinking as the water isn't that deep anyway...in the other picture you
can see how she was high and dry just a little bit ago...
[cid:image002.jpg@...]
[cid:image004.jpg@...]
Patrick
|
How appropriate to be talking about stuffing 2 weeks before Thanksgiving¡oh wait a second¡.not the same type of stuffing!!!!! ? I am looking for a little help here with my Tartan 27 and the stuffing box and the packing and adjustments.? I have my Tartan 27 right out back on my pier so it is right here to monitor and keep an eye on, and so I went out to start her up and run her for a bit and check on the drip that is supposed to be 1-2 drops per minute is more like a steady stream. ? It is a tight fit for my 250# girth sliding in along the engine and so I want to make sure I get it right when I try and stop or slow this drop. Here is a picture.? The drop is coming from right around #4.? Is that where it is supposed to drip?? What do I want to adjust and which way do I want to adjust them in?? I can go take more pictures and video, but I thought labeling this picture might at least start a discussion.? ? Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.? I am not in risk of sinking as the water isn¡¯t that deep anyway¡in the other picture you can see how she was high and dry just a little bit ago¡ ?  
? Patrick
|
With the rudder hard to starboard, a sharp burst of reverse will shift the stern to port (prop walk] but only until the boat is moving. Then, keeping the rudder in the same spot, pair that with forward thrust,? until reverse movement stops. The bow will have started to turn starboard. Then, another burst in reverse until you start moving. Repeat. You can spin the boat clockwise in one spot in calm conditions. Practice until you can tell how much power it takes to counteract the forward movement. Backing up straight can be harder than turning, depending on the wind and current. Congratulations on the new boat. Great choice.?
|
Thanks, that makes much more sense. Sounds like the washer at the shoe end is not a common fix. Im going to focus on the upper end this time and inspect the shoe well.
|
? Re-reading your post, I realize I didn¡¯t do much of a job of addressing your actual questions. ? I think I fell into the ¡°I asked him what time it was, and he told me how to build a watch¡± syndrome. ? Apologies. ?Anyway, I¡¯m sure you¡¯ve gleaned that what I was talking about was a bearing at the top of the rudderpost. ? The one I described does an excellent job of keeping the rudder post centered in the tube and eliminating any slop or thump. ?I think that¡¯s what most folks use, and it¡¯s probably the most effective form of rudder bearing, but that doesn¡¯t mean you couldn¡¯t also put bearings elsewhere. ? But your questions went to, what can you do while in the slings??
Since you¡¯ll be in the slings, that¡¯s by far the best opportunity to drop the rudder; because otherwise you¡¯d need to dig a hole in order to get the clearance to drop it. ?AMHIK, as they say. ? You asked about a bearing at the base of the post above the rudder blade. ?I think that would make very little difference to anything, and I don¡¯t think that it¡¯s worth it, but if you wanted one you¡¯d probably have to drop the rudder fully out to install it. ? Given that that means that the top of the rudder post has to drop below the bottom of the rudder post tube, it¡¯s very possible that the Travelift won¡¯t go that high, so that¡¯s a consideration. ?? ?? A bearing between the bottom of the rudder blade and the rudder shoe is good, since that¡¯s where all the load is, at least based on weight. ?We did one out of UHMW, making a thick washer out of that stuff. ?Now, the thicker that washer is, the less rudder post stub there remains to go into the shoe, so there are limits or at least tradeoffs. ?But while you¡¯re in the slings would be a good time to install one, bearing in mind (pardon the pun) that once you remove the shoe, the whole rudder, post and all, is free to drop out; be very careful not to risk bending the shaft. ? You should probably consider, what if some PO had put the shoe back on with, say, 5200? ? That¡¯d be a beast. ?OTOH, removing and inspecting the shoe is probably a very good thing to do, considering that if the shoe let go, I doubt that the clamping action of the tiller head would be enough to keep you from losing the rudder altogether. ?And I will relate that I have a nice heavy bronze casting rudder shoe in my collection, complete with a crack all the way thru it...not good.
SO back to the beginning: ?the most important rudder bearing is at the top, as I previously described; but you don¡¯t have to be in the slings to do that one. ? IF you decide to do a lower bearing, it¡¯d be that washer between the bottom of the rudder blade and the shoe, and that¡¯s the one to do while in the slings. ? Hope this helps. ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 3, 2020, at 2:50 AM, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:
? We used a chunk of UHMW plastic, I think from Ebay. ??It¡¯s thru-bolted to the deck. ?As I recall, the rudder was out of the boat, so we used a long dowel, the same diameter as the rudder shaft, and wrapped it with tape to center it in the tube, and slid it down the tube a distance, so we now had what was essentially a longer rudder shaft sticking out the top of the tube by at least several inches. ?We then drilled a hole the same diameter as the rudder shaft in the chunk of UHMW, and slid it over the extended ¡®shaft.¡¯ ?Of course, because the tube emerges from the deck at an angle and not ¡®normal¡¯ to the deck, i.e. not at right angles, that meant the bottom of the UHMW chunk didn¡¯t lay flat. But because it was plainly visible it was then no big deal to grind the bottom of the UHMW until it lay flat on the deck, while still remaining aligned on the extended ¡®shaft.¡¯I think the actual tube itself stuck up maybe 1/8¡± or so above the deck, but we had already ground it flush to the deck. ?That way we didn¡¯t have to make allowances for its diameter or make the hole in the UHMW complicated. Now that the bottom of the UHMW was indeed flush to the deck AND had the hole drilled at the correct angle, we now had a reference surface to work from: ?if the bottom of the UHMW was flush to the deck, then that same flat surface could just sit flat on the drill press table so we could vertical drill holes for the mounting bolts; and those holes for the mounting bolts would be square to the deck, even if they weren¡¯t square to the top of the chunk of UHMW. ?Then shape the UHMW to whatever shape/contours you want.Finally, the holes in the deck were drilled per the standard protocol: ?Overdrill, then fill with thickened epoxy. ?Place the UHMW bearing on the fake shaft, slide it down so it¡¯s flush to the deck and sits exactly as you¡¯d like, and now you¡¯ve got a guide for drill holes, in the form of the holes already drilled in the UHMW. ??Use them as guides to drill thru the deck, thru-bolt, and as my Canadian friend says, Bob¡¯s your uncle and it¡¯s all tickety-boo.Warren Stein On Nov 3, 2020, at 2:11 AM, dcsavitzky <dcsavitzky@...> wrote:
?Planning to haul Sleekit out this weekend and thinking about preventive maintenance while i have it in the lift overnight - has anyone installed a rudder post bearing and was it useful? I have a looseness and clunk sound when i tack and it gets stiff when there is a lot of wind. Also, where does the bearing go? Between the shoe and the rudder, at the base of the post above the rudder blade, or at the top of the post? Thanks,
David Savitzky
"Sleekit"
Rhode Island
|
We used a chunk of UHMW plastic, I think from Ebay. It¡¯s thru-bolted to the deck. As I recall, the rudder was out of the boat, so we used a long dowel, the same diameter as the rudder shaft, and wrapped it with tape to center it in the tube, and slid it down the tube a distance, so we now had what was essentially a longer rudder shaft sticking out the top of the tube by at least several inches. We then drilled a hole the same diameter as the rudder shaft in the chunk of UHMW, and slid it over the extended ¡®shaft.¡¯ Of course, because the tube emerges from the deck at an angle and not ¡®normal¡¯ to the deck, i.e. not at right angles, that meant the bottom of the UHMW chunk didn¡¯t lay flat. But because it was plainly visible it was then no big deal to grind the bottom of the UHMW until it lay flat on the deck, while still remaining aligned on the extended ¡®shaft.¡¯
I think the actual tube itself stuck up maybe 1/8¡± or so above the deck, but we had already ground it flush to the deck. That way we didn¡¯t have to make allowances for its diameter or make the hole in the UHMW complicated.
Now that the bottom of the UHMW was indeed flush to the deck AND had the hole drilled at the correct angle, we now had a reference surface to work from: if the bottom of the UHMW was flush to the deck, then that same flat surface could just sit flat on the drill press table so we could vertical drill holes for the mounting bolts; and those holes for the mounting bolts would be square to the deck, even if they weren¡¯t square to the top of the chunk of UHMW. Then shape the UHMW to whatever shape/contours you want.
Finally, the holes in the deck were drilled per the standard protocol: Overdrill, then fill with thickened epoxy. Place the UHMW bearing on the fake shaft, slide it down so it¡¯s flush to the deck and sits exactly as you¡¯d like, and now you¡¯ve got a guide for drill holes, in the form of the holes already drilled in the UHMW. Use them as guides to drill thru the deck, thru-bolt, and as my Canadian friend says, Bob¡¯s your uncle and it¡¯s all tickety-boo.
Warren Stein
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Nov 3, 2020, at 2:11 AM, dcsavitzky <dcsavitzky@...> wrote:
?Planning to haul Sleekit out this weekend and thinking about preventive maintenance while i have it in the lift overnight - has anyone installed a rudder post bearing and was it useful? I have a looseness and clunk sound when i tack and it gets stiff when there is a lot of wind. Also, where does the bearing go? Between the shoe and the rudder, at the base of the post above the rudder blade, or at the top of the post? Thanks,
David Savitzky
"Sleekit"
Rhode Island
|
Planning to haul Sleekit out this weekend and thinking about preventive maintenance while i have it in the lift overnight - has anyone installed a rudder post bearing and was it useful? I have a looseness and clunk sound when i tack and it gets stiff when there is a lot of wind. Also, where does the bearing go? Between the shoe and the rudder, at the base of the post above the rudder blade, or at the top of the post? Thanks,?
David Savitzky
"Sleekit"
Rhode Island
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
Here are a couple photos of how I reworked the pennant attachment point (I wish I had a better closeup after it was painted up and finished).
The first photo shows the new steel glasses in and nylon bushing at the pivot point.?
If you zoom in on the photo with my dad holding the board you can see how I attached the hardware.
  XR mobile device
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 23, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Brent Bass via < BJBass@...> wrote: Well done with the removal. Here are a few photos from the inside of a similar looking T27 CB that I recently refurbished (there were a few different configurations over the years so they are not all 100% the same inside and out, and who knows what previous owners have done with modifications etc).
You will likely want to open it up and replace the 16x4x1/4 inch plate where the pennant attaches, as well as the bushing. There are other bits of steel embedded here and there, too. A strong magnet should tell you where. I had a crack and some corrosion in the lower end of the board, opened that up and found a smaller steel plate that I cleaned up and re-glassed.
The pin pivot is likely bronze.
I¡¯ll dig up a photo of mine after repair and attach that to a later email.
Brent S/V Lola, T27 #438 Cataumet, MA
<image1.jpeg>   <image4.jpeg><image5.jpeg> XR mobile device Now that you have the centerboard out and definitely have to replace the centerboard cable, it is a good time to take a good look at the fairlead pipe that the pennant cable runs through. On many Tartan 27s, the stainless steel pennant cable spent decades slowly sawing a hole through that bronze pipe and the hull. Now is the best chance you'll ever get to fix that damage. The pipe is below the waterline, so if it saws all the way through, it is game over. Not all boats had this issue, but many do.
You can see photos in my gallery,
One preventative measure some people take is to add a bushing that keeps the cable better centered so it can not so easily rub on the pipe. I opted to make my bushing out of UHMW-PE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) which is self lubricating, durable, and does not expand when wet. Other people have opted to switch to Dyneema for the pennant cable. Dyneema would have a hard time sawing through the bronze. However, I'd be concerned that barnacles and other hard growth inside the centerboard trunk could saw through the cable.
My centerboard pin had some visible crevice corrosion, so I just got a piece of 316 stainless steel from mcmaster and made a new one with a hacksaw and some sanding to round the edges a bit. Probably not required, but I don't want to think about the centerboard again for at least a decade.
When you reinsert the centerboard, do not overtighten the cap for the centerboard pin or you could rip that pipe right out of the hull, and then you'd have a big project on your hands.
The centerboard is a 'weak point' of these boats. Especially because a proper inspection is so tedious. Since it is hard to inspect, many people never do, and so the boards and fairlead pipe have gone uninspected for 40+ years. Another weak point on the Tartan 27 is that the chainplates are fully encapsulated on both sides in fiberglass. This can lead to crevice corrosion and makes them hard to inspect. Many people have redone their chainplates, and those that have not, probably should consider it. If you are lucky, someone already redid yours. The wood under the mast step has been known to rot. I am not sure how many people this affects. I still need to inspect mine, once I figure out how.
And, finally, the original thru-hulls were just bronze nipples fiberglassed into place. Obviously, that is not up to modern standards. Many people eventually replace them with proper seacocks.
Those are the 4 big weak points.
The icebox is terrible and leaks when it rains (or just in general). But that is just annoying -- and unlikely to sink your boat.
Overall these are great boats -- as shown by how many are still around after 40+ years. And, fortunately, the weak points can be addressed.
- jeremy
?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
Well done with the removal. Here are a few photos from the inside of a similar looking T27 CB that I recently refurbished (there were a few different configurations over the years so they are not all 100% the same inside and out, and who knows what previous owners have done with modifications etc).
You will likely want to open it up and replace the 16x4x1/4 inch plate where the pennant attaches, as well as the bushing. There are other bits of steel embedded here and there, too. A strong magnet should tell you where. I had a crack and some corrosion in the lower end of the board, opened that up and found a smaller steel plate that I cleaned up and re-glassed.
The pin pivot is likely bronze.
I¡¯ll dig up a photo of mine after repair and attach that to a later email.
Brent S/V Lola, T27 #438
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 23, 2020, at 12:50 PM, jeremy@... wrote: Now that you have the centerboard out and definitely have to replace the centerboard cable, it is a good time to take a good look at the fairlead pipe that the pennant cable runs through. On many Tartan 27s, the stainless steel pennant cable spent decades slowly sawing a hole through that bronze pipe and the hull. Now is the best chance you'll ever get to fix that damage. The pipe is below the waterline, so if it saws all the way through, it is game over. Not all boats had this issue, but many do.
You can see photos in my gallery,
One preventative measure some people take is to add a bushing that keeps the cable better centered so it can not so easily rub on the pipe. I opted to make my bushing out of UHMW-PE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) which is self lubricating, durable, and does not expand when wet. Other people have opted to switch to Dyneema for the pennant cable. Dyneema would have a hard time sawing through the bronze. However, I'd be concerned that barnacles and other hard growth inside the centerboard trunk could saw through the cable.
My centerboard pin had some visible crevice corrosion, so I just got a piece of 316 stainless steel from mcmaster and made a new one with a hacksaw and some sanding to round the edges a bit. Probably not required, but I don't want to think about the centerboard again for at least a decade.
When you reinsert the centerboard, do not overtighten the cap for the centerboard pin or you could rip that pipe right out of the hull, and then you'd have a big project on your hands.
The centerboard is a 'weak point' of these boats. Especially because a proper inspection is so tedious. Since it is hard to inspect, many people never do, and so the boards and fairlead pipe have gone uninspected for 40+ years. Another weak point on the Tartan 27 is that the chainplates are fully encapsulated on both sides in fiberglass. This can lead to crevice corrosion and makes them hard to inspect. Many people have redone their chainplates, and those that have not, probably should consider it. If you are lucky, someone already redid yours. The wood under the mast step has been known to rot. I am not sure how many people this affects. I still need to inspect mine, once I figure out how.
And, finally, the original thru-hulls were just bronze nipples fiberglassed into place. Obviously, that is not up to modern standards. Many people eventually replace them with proper seacocks.
Those are the 4 big weak points.
The icebox is terrible and leaks when it rains (or just in general). But that is just annoying -- and unlikely to sink your boat.
Overall these are great boats -- as shown by how many are still around after 40+ years. And, fortunately, the weak points can be addressed.
- jeremy
?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
Now that you have the centerboard out and definitely have to replace the centerboard cable, it is a good time to take a good look at the fairlead pipe that the pennant cable runs through. On many Tartan 27s, the stainless steel pennant cable spent decades slowly sawing a hole through that bronze pipe and the hull. Now is the best chance you'll ever get to fix that damage. The pipe is below the waterline, so if it saws all the way through, it is game over. Not all boats had this issue, but many do.
You can see photos in my gallery,
One preventative measure some people take is to add a bushing that keeps the cable better centered so it can not so easily rub on the pipe. I opted to make my bushing out of UHMW-PE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) which is self lubricating, durable, and does not expand when wet. Other people have opted to switch to Dyneema for the pennant cable. Dyneema would have a hard time sawing through the bronze. However, I'd be concerned that barnacles and other hard growth inside the centerboard trunk could saw through the cable.
My centerboard pin had some visible crevice corrosion, so I just got a piece of 316 stainless steel from mcmaster and made a new one with a hacksaw and some sanding to round the edges a bit. Probably not required, but I don't want to think about the centerboard again for at least a decade.
When you reinsert the centerboard, do not overtighten the cap for the centerboard pin or you could rip that pipe right out of the hull, and then you'd have a big project on your hands.
The centerboard is a 'weak point' of these boats. Especially because a proper inspection is so tedious. Since it is hard to inspect, many people never do, and so the boards and fairlead pipe have gone uninspected for 40+ years. Another weak point on the Tartan 27 is that the chainplates are fully encapsulated on both sides in fiberglass. This can lead to crevice corrosion and makes them hard to inspect. Many people have redone their chainplates, and those that have not, probably should consider it. If you are lucky, someone already redid yours. The wood under the mast step has been known to rot. I am not sure how many people this affects. I still need to inspect mine, once I figure out how.
And, finally, the original thru-hulls were just bronze nipples fiberglassed into place. Obviously, that is not up to modern standards. Many people eventually replace them with proper seacocks.
Those are the 4 big weak points.
The icebox is terrible and leaks when it rains (or just in general). But that is just annoying -- and unlikely to sink your boat.
Overall these are great boats -- as shown by how many are still around after 40+ years. And, fortunately, the weak points can be addressed.
- jeremy
?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
Well, I'm glad you got the board out.? It has issues, clearly.? Of course, those issues would have resolved themselves for you, when it fell out.?? An observation:? I have NO IDEA how the wire you show ever worked in the first place.? It certainly appears to be not the proper 7x19 or even 7x7, but 1x19 which is used for standing, not running, rigging.?? In other words, what's broken off there was never intended to be flexible, and certainly not flexible enough to wrap around the small pulley side of the winch.? No clue how it worked before--and maybe it didn't, which is maybe why it got stuck...
I think the Dyneema suggestion is? good one.? Dyneema's ungodly strong, and really pretty resistant to chafing, but I'm a belt-AND-suspenders kinda guy, especially where a fix is tough to get at again, so be aware that New England Ropes (NER) makes not just the Dyneema rope you can use for the pennant, but also a Dyneema chafe jacket, which is a sort of sleeve that you slip over the Dyneema pennant.?? This stuff isn't real expensive, and you don't need a lot of it.?? So here's what we did recently:? used what was some? lime-green Dyneema as the pennant.? I think it was 1/8, but maybe it was 5/32.? WITH the jacket over it it's too thick to go into the hole in the edge of the centerboard, so just the lime-green Dyneema went thru the edge into the hole in the centerboard, where it got serious stopper knottage, with some burn enough to make sure it wasn't coming undone.? Then the white jacket went over the lime green Dyneema, snug up to the hole; and I sewed thru both with some synthetic rigging twine, to keep the jacket from slipping.?? Then the rope-in-a-rope went thru the bronze fitting on top of the centerboard trunk.? The white jacket doesn't have to be the full length of the remaining lime-green dyneema, but if it's not, sew that thru at the top end, too. ? Why? Funny you should ask.? Because if you don't, and the white jacket top end, not sewn to the lime-green, makes it back down the hole in the bronze fitting, the next time you go to raise the board, the lime-green will come up, but the white jacket will stay stuck below the bronze fitting.? And as you raise the board, the white jacket will get all bunched up and prevent you from fully raising the board.?? And maybe you won't realize what just happened, and maybe you'll rediscover some archaic terms you didn't remember you once knew.?? AMHIK, I think the acronym is.??
I'm NOT saying you need the jacket in the first place.? I AM saying it's cheap insurance and may ward off evil spirits.?? Oh, and DO take a moment to chamfer the edges of where the pennant enters the board and any other place(s) you can get to where the pennant might chafe.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosasco <scottrosasco@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 5:09 pm
Subject: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
I grew up in Huntington. ?My Dad had a Tartan 27 there in the mid-60s, when I was but a young lad; it was the first real sailboat I remember. ?My legs weren¡¯t long enough to reach from the high side across the cockpit. ?I worked at both the Knutson yard and the Willis yard as a rigger in my teens. ? Small world.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Scott Rosasco <scottrosasco@...> wrote:
? We only paid $250 for the boat. Full asking. Could have gotten it for $200, but didn¡¯t have the heart to nickel and dime the 85 year old owner. Anything that could be broken on this boat, is already broken. Sailed it from Huntington NY to Tarrytown NY with its diesel engine though. On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Caleb Davison via groups.io <calebjess@...> wrote:
?
Somehow I am reminded of my favorite EB White quote on sailing:
¡°If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most. A small?sailing?craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble.¡±
That hint of trouble may be the next thing that fails on your boat.
Good job getting that centerboard down & out.
My best,
Caleb D
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: aksjghkajshd <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 5:16 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
If you can find someone you trust to correctly braid an eye in to Dynema, a Dynema uphaul doesn't rust and does well under water. It's hard to anticipate what thing on the boat is going to break next, but... there is something on the boat that is going to break next, and when it does, it'll piss you off. -scott
On? 0, Scott Rosasco < scottrosasco@...> wrote: > ?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement. > > >
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
We only paid $250 for the boat. Full asking. Could have gotten it for $200, but didn¡¯t have the heart to nickel and dime the 85 year old owner. Anything that could be broken on this boat, is already broken. Sailed it from Huntington NY to Tarrytown NY with its diesel engine though.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 22, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Caleb Davison via groups.io <calebjess@...> wrote:
?
Somehow I am reminded of my favorite EB White quote on sailing:
¡°If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most. A small?sailing?craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble.¡±
That hint of trouble may be the next thing that fails on your boat.
Good job getting that centerboard down & out.
My best,
Caleb D
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: aksjghkajshd <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 5:16 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
If you can find someone you trust to correctly braid an eye in to Dynema, a Dynema uphaul doesn't rust and does well under water. It's hard to anticipate what thing on the boat is going to break next, but... there is something on the boat that is going to break next, and when it does, it'll piss you off. -scott
On? 0, Scott Rosasco < scottrosasco@...> wrote: > ?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement. > > >
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
Somehow I am reminded of my favorite EB White quote on sailing:
¡°If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most. A small?sailing?craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble.¡±
That hint of trouble may be the next thing that fails on your boat.
Good job getting that centerboard down & out.
My best,
Caleb D
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: aksjghkajshd <scott@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, Oct 22, 2020 5:16 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
If you can find someone you trust to correctly braid an eye in to Dynema, a Dynema uphaul doesn't rust and does well under water. It's hard to anticipate what thing on the boat is going to break next, but... there is something on the boat that is going to break next, and when it does, it'll piss you off. -scott
On? 0, Scott Rosasco < scottrosasco@...> wrote: > ?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement. > > >
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
If you can find someone you trust to correctly braid an eye in to Dynema,
a Dynema uphaul doesn't rust and does well under water.
It's hard to anticipate what thing on the boat is going to break next,
but... there is something on the boat that is going to break next,
and when it does, it'll piss you off.
-scott
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 0, Scott Rosasco <scottrosasco@...> wrote: ?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues, Part II.
?Ok. So we followed all the suggestions and Warren¡¯s plan and dropped the whole thing. Only took 1/2 hour and some bruised fingers that the board fell on. The cable snapped as soon as the pressure from the pin was released. It will get repaired over the winter. Thanks for all the encouragement. Here are some photos and video for your amusement.
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues
?Oh, OK. ? If it¡¯s out then a couple of points: ?one, I had mentioned that you only need about 22¡± or 23¡± inches of clearance, i.e. how high the Travelift has to go. ? That¡¯s because the board is about that wide. ?Maybe (?) you¡¯re thinking that the board has to be installed vertically, like in your picture. ?It doesn¡¯t. ? If you have the bottom of the keel 2¡¯ off the ground, you can place the board horizontally. ? Attach the pennant. ? Lift the board into the centerboard trunk using the pennant. ? Yes, somebody has to be on the boat, in the slings, because they¡¯re going to have to insert the pin anyway; so there¡¯s no reason they can¡¯t also be lifting with the winch. ?You may have to keep the (suspended) board pushed forward, from below. ? Forward¡¯s important, because it¡¯s the alignment of the forward edge of the board, pushed/lifted up, which brings the hole in the centerboard into alignment with the bronze flanges, thru which you push the pin. ?The top corner of the board is rounded, and that rounding apparently corresponds with the rounding of the inside forward top corner of the centerboard trunk, so that when it¡¯s (the centerboard) pushed up fully and forward fully it means the pin lines up.?
Don¡¯t ignore that if the board is all crapped up, so is the inside of the trunk. ?A handsaw works wonders. ? ? ?
FWIW, I fully appreciate your desire not to turn this into a time-suck or a money pit. ?But I think if you don¡¯t deal with it you won¡¯t end up happy with the outcome. ??
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 21, 2020, at 5:42 PM, Scott Rosasco <scottrosasco@...> wrote:
? I think you misunderstand. The board is out. We are limited only by how high the travel lift operator was willing to go up. See the picture.
<image.jpg> On Oct 21, 2020, at 5:34 PM, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:
? I also think you should drop the board, because if the board is bad in the spot you show, it will likely have some pin issues, too, or maybe pennant-attachment issues. ?It would be frustrating indeed to spend the time and aggravation fixing the split in place, only to find that now you have to drop it anyway to deal with the pin or the pennant. ? ? ? ? ? ?FWIW: ?Home Depot and other similar stores sell a modern version of what were once lag screws. ? Now they have Torx- or similar heads with integral washers, on shanks that are significantly skinnier than the DEEP threads. ? Once you sink them into something, they have a hell of a bite! ? But yes, you CAN back them out, too. ?So if you can¡¯t get the board out of the slot, perhaps you could drill into the lower, trailing edge of the board, that¡¯s already exposed to you, and put one or more of these into the edge of the board that¡¯s exposed, and work a sort of 2x4 lever arrangement to extract the board from the slot. ?Sure, you¡¯d have to fill the screw holes with thickened epoxy; but that¡¯s the least of it. ?? On Oct 21, 2020, at 5:10 PM, jeremy@... wrote:
? Do you plan to drop the centerboard or repair it in place?
Given what I see in the photo, I'd drop the whole thing and see what other horrors are hidden above the centerboard trunk line.
- jeremy
?Caleb,
Thanks. We had an opinion that the slot had something to do with letting the centerboard cable into the board, but I don¡¯t think so. My thought was to drill one or two small holes In the sides near the slot and let it drain over the winter. Then in the spring fill it with epoxy, mixed with some chopped roving and squeeze it tight with some clamps and hope for the best.
?
Hi Scott,
I'm going to say that doesn't look right or good.? It is not often that I have seen that side of my centerboard but I certainly do not remember seeing any crevice on any side of it.? It may be worth giving that crevice a quick sand and fill it in with some adhesive.? You could do that in the spring before launching if they could leave you in the travllift over night - to let the adhesive cure.? I'd recommend an epoxy like West Sytems or their 6-10 pre mixed thickened epoxy.? Takes about 1 day to cure.
Good luck.
Caleb D.
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosasco < scottrosasco@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Oct 21, 2020 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues
Okay, so we hauled for the winter and got the centerboard down in the travel lift, before blocking for storage. Sanded it smooth and bottom painted it. Question: is the slot opening, in the top aft end of the board typical for the centerboard, or does that opening represent the centerboard starting to separate. Picture enclosed.
> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Scott Rosasco via <scottrosasco= [email protected]> wrote:
>
> ?Just purchased a 1967 Tartan 27,? hull #270, with two other people who are also on this list. Currently berthed in Tarrytown NY. Previous owner sailed it infrequently and not at all in the past year or two. Boat was stored in the water (Long Island Sound) for at least the past two years. We had the bottom cleaned before we took delivery, but the owner told us he dropped the centerboard once in the past 13 years, but had trouble getting it back up, so he never dropped it again. Told us it sailed fine without it, but our experience differs. We have tried to drop it, but it won¡¯t go down. Perhaps growth fouled in place? Any idea how we might safely get it down and up while the boat is in the water? Failing that, if we put it in a travel lift, how far off the ground does the boat need to be raised? Will there be enough of the board exposed below the boat to attempt to manually pull it down? Looking for opinions. Thanks.
>
>
>
|
Re: Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues
I¡¯d say that without serious intervention you are 90% likely to lose the centerboard soon. The area around the pin has the most stress and is least vIsible. ?Every time the board flops side to side it is stressing the pin, the bushings and the piece of bronze (with a hole in it that the pin goes through) that¡¯s glasses into the board. Having once lost my board Id advise dropping it and seeing what you are dealing with. Maybe it¡¯s salvageable now, a winter project restoring it to a reliable condition. More labour than money, I would think. Replacing it is a whole other story!?
$250 for a Tartan 27!? Marty Poseidon? Bowen Island, BC
? sent by carrier pigeon ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Oct 21, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Scott Rosasco <scottrosasco@...> wrote:
? Jeremy,
?That sounds like a good way to spend a lot of valuable time and money fixing a boat that we only spent $250 to buy. We just want to go sailing, while we¡¯re still alive. We are not going to go looking for more trouble. Thanks anyway. On Oct 21, 2020, at 5:10 PM, jeremy@... wrote:
? Do you plan to drop the centerboard or repair it in place?
Given what I see in the photo, I'd drop the whole thing and see what other horrors are hidden above the centerboard trunk line.
- jeremy
?Caleb,
Thanks. We had an opinion that the slot had something to do with letting the centerboard cable into the board, but I don¡¯t think so. My thought was to drill one or two small holes In the sides near the slot and let it drain over the winter. Then in the spring fill it with epoxy, mixed with some chopped roving and squeeze it tight with some clamps and hope for the best.
?
Hi Scott,
I'm going to say that doesn't look right or good.? It is not often that I have seen that side of my centerboard but I certainly do not remember seeing any crevice on any side of it.? It may be worth giving that crevice a quick sand and fill it in with some adhesive.? You could do that in the spring before launching if they could leave you in the travllift over night - to let the adhesive cure.? I'd recommend an epoxy like West Sytems or their 6-10 pre mixed thickened epoxy.? Takes about 1 day to cure.
Good luck.
Caleb D.
T27 #328
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Rosasco < scottrosasco@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Oct 21, 2020 3:36 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Tartan 27 Centerboard Issues
Okay, so we hauled for the winter and got the centerboard down in the travel lift, before blocking for storage. Sanded it smooth and bottom painted it. Question: is the slot opening, in the top aft end of the board typical for the centerboard, or does that opening represent the centerboard starting to separate. Picture enclosed.
> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:09 PM, Scott Rosasco via <scottrosasco= [email protected]> wrote:
>
> ?Just purchased a 1967 Tartan 27,? hull #270, with two other people who are also on this list. Currently berthed in Tarrytown NY. Previous owner sailed it infrequently and not at all in the past year or two. Boat was stored in the water (Long Island Sound) for at least the past two years. We had the bottom cleaned before we took delivery, but the owner told us he dropped the centerboard once in the past 13 years, but had trouble getting it back up, so he never dropped it again. Told us it sailed fine without it, but our experience differs. We have tried to drop it, but it won¡¯t go down. Perhaps growth fouled in place? Any idea how we might safely get it down and up while the boat is in the water? Failing that, if we put it in a travel lift, how far off the ground does the boat need to be raised? Will there be enough of the board exposed below the boat to attempt to manually pull it down? Looking for opinions. Thanks.
>
>
>
|
