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-----Original Message-----
From: calebjess@... [T27Owners] <T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <T27Owners@...>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 8:51 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard







Monica,


I think that most T27's have the pivot pin encased in pipe caps as shown in the picture. They sorta look like the bolts sticking out of Frankenstein's neck. I believe there is a short section of pipe glassed in and the pipe caps fit/screw in and are water tight. At least this way you can gain access to the pivot pin without ripping apart laminate.


I wouldn't feel comfortable with the pin just encased in fiberglass. The weight of the board (~ 75 - 100 #s) on the pin with the board moving up and down is asking for the laminate to give out at the pin ends. The pipe caps and internal bits of pipe take all the chafing from the pin; not the fiberglass.


Caleb D.
T27 #328









-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Malone monicam@... [T27Owners] <T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <T27Owners@...>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard




Scott,
That picture looks like the ends of the pin are NOT encased in fiberglass. My fiberglass completely encases EVERYTHING, including the ends of the pin. Thanks for the pics !


Monica Malone PsyD
monicam@...




-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Walters scott@... [T27Owners] <T27Owners@...>
To: Monica Malone monicam@... [T27Owners] <T27Owners@...>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 1:19 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard

housing to get to the pin. (Based on some of the responses, I'm wondering
if this is true of all Tartan 27s.) So, after the trip to the lift, I

Here are some other people's cabin soles. I don't have a photo of mine handy,
but my W.D.Schock-built Tartan has a partial floor pan with a large removeable
wooden sole for access to the bilge.

Okay, here's a not great pic. Access goes all of the way to the engine and
the floor pan stops there, so really it's two pieces of floor pan.

Pivot pin seems to be just like anyone else's though other in photos, the
centerboard trunk looks sturdier than mine (I was dealing with some weeping
hairline cracks on the portside of the trunk right around the pivot pin and
I started beefing the trunk up after that).

If you don't have bilge access, I imagine you could cut a similar panel or
panels, put a lip beneith them, clean up the edges on the panels you've
removed, and set the panel back on top.

Hope that helps.

-scott

On 0, "Monica Malone monicam@... [T27Owners]" <T27Owners@...> wrote:

Thanks for the input, Dave. On my boat, I have to cut the centerboard
housing to get to the pin. (Based on some of the responses, I'm wondering
if this is true of all Tartan 27s.) So, after the trip to the lift, I
still have fiberglass repair, whether I install it from the top or bottom.
I'm a little gunshy about boatyards after my last experience. Even though
Patrick Kennedy moved here, it is still mainly a powerboat area. The only
marina I could find that had a lift adequate for a sailboat, did not know
how to lift the boat & damaged it. In addition, he would not let me get
under to boat to inspect the centerboard well, so he is certainly not
going to let me work on it from underneath.. My local sailing friends tell
me the best place to have it lifted is an hour up the coast. The issue is
not one drive of an hour. I then have to repair the fiberglass, either
around the pin or the whole top. This has to be done in phases, requiring
multiple trips to the boat. ( An additional glitch is my fiberglass artist
doesn't drive.) So. I either do that at the boatyard, before putting the
mast up and launching it, or trailer the boat back to my place. The
inventory of vehicles among my friends and relatives does not include one
adequate to pull the boat.
Yes, this is much more complicated than it would be if I had local access
to a lift. And, in my mind, once I cut into the fiberglass, there's not a
whole lot of difference between a little cut and a big cut.

Monica Malone PsyD
monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Jepsky davejepsky@... [T27Owners]
<T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <T27Owners@...>
Sent: Tue, Dec 12, 2017 4:19 am
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard


Hi Monica,
I have to put in my 2 cents. I think you are making a relatively simple
centerboard replacement a major activity by cutting and trying to replace
the board from the top. Putting the boat in slings at the boatyard and
installing the board from the bottom is the way to go.
After sailing thousands of miles and having no centerboard trouble; I know
the centerboard design is solid. Once you replace the pivot and pennant
you should be good for many years. Old age is the main centerboard issue.
Dave
T27 #427 Dejale'

----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Monica Malone [1]monicam@... [T27Owners]"
<[2]T27Owners@...>
To: [3]T27Owners@...
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard

Warren,
You have verbalized the temptation I've been trying to chase from my mind.
I would love to be able to check on the condition of the pennant, holes,
etc to reassure myself the centerboard is not about to run away from home.
However, since I can't seem to get the windows water-tight (I have the
ones that open), I know better than to risk something on the bottom of the
boat that could leak. But, it really is tempting.

Monica Malone PsyD
[4]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Stein [5]wrsteinesq@... [T27Owners]
<[6]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[7]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 11, 2017 7:48 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard


Devil***s advocate here. Just tossing out an idea, probably worth what
you just paid for it. I HAVE taken part of the top off the centerboard
trunk, not to install a centerboard but because I miscalculated when
installing a new stern tube (long story), and had to lower the top of the
trunk under the (newly installed) engine by about an inch. It (the
trunk) was fairly stout, and I was indeed able to glass in an appropriate
repair.
Here***s what I***m thinking: IF you go that way (cutting the top off),
might there be some way to make that top removable at some later date?
Why? Because you***ve needed that access once, and might again. Because
barnacles and/or other growth IN the trunk are otherwise an absolute bear
to get at. Because even if the boat has to be out of the water to make
this useful, it***s still way safer to be inside the boat looking down,
than under the boat looking up. Because all manner of things can lock up
a centerboard, and they***re generally inaccessible.
I***m thinking building a ***shoulder*** on the lower (remaining) portion
of the trunk and then fastening the top to it, I***m sure with appropriate
gasketing. Maybe epoxy 1/4*** x 2*** G10 horizontally around the trunk.
That ***shoulder*** would undoubtedly strengthen/stiffen the trunk
considerably, probably more than mitigating any loss in rigidity caused by
the top-cutting. Hell, if you were in doubt, you could glass in some
sort of athwartships ribs port and starboard, running from each side of
the trunk to the (rising) hull.
Not saying this is a good idea, just saying that if you***re committed to
top-chopping, you might as well at least think about getting the most
benefit from it.
Warren Stein, Hulls No. 90 and 535, Waterford, VA

Sent from my iPad
On Dec 11, 2017, at 7:19 PM, Monica Malone [8]monicam@...
[T27Owners] <[9]T27Owners@...> wrote:


Jack,
You have described well why I think it is safer to install it from the
top.

Monica Malone PsyD
[10]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Wyman [11]jackwyman@... [T27Owners]
<[12]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[13]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Mon, Dec 11, 2017 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard


Monica,
Only an hour's drive to avoid a potential disaster? Sure, there will be
glitches with your centerboard. But even an hour away, they'll be far
easier to deal with than a boat on its side in your yard. Not to mention
possible injuries or much, much worse.
See [14] and note how many
times safety issues are addressed by Master Shipwright Louis Sauzedde as
he raises a relatively small 22-foot fishing boat only a few inches off
its trailer. Your Tartan is probably four times heavier and taller?
Top-heavy. Think gravity at 32 feet per second per second. In a
near-instant way too many things can go hugely wrong with four tons of
boat perched high on stands.
Here in Michigan, I've seen winterized sailboats with their keels (and
weight) on the ground, braced with stands, yet laying on their side.
Why? Conjecture was wet/soft earth and/or high winds.
And even with all the time and precautions taken in the video, note the
viewer comments below asking why opposite stands weren't chained
together. This would be even more important with the continuously curved
hull of your Tartan.
Please take your boat to a boatyard with a Travelift. Other than during
the very busy putting in/taking out times, many(?) most(?) yards will
give you time to work on your centerboard. Make sure the lifting straps
are tied together.
Jack Wyman
T27-2 #667
Tartango
Michigan

On Dec 10, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Monica Malone [15]monicam@...
[T27Owners] wrote:


The fiberglass work does not concern me because I have a good friend
who is a phenomenal fiberglass worker. He repaired the huge hole Sandy
put in the boat & no amount of scrutiny reveals where that hole used
to be. He is a perfectionist. However, working under that much weight,
supported by jackstands, does concern me. The boat is on my property,
so I would have to take it to a boatyard to have it lifted. I think
the closest one that allows owners to work on their own boats is an
hour away. I am assuming there will be glitches in this project & it
would be easier to deal with them closer to home.

Monica Malone PsyD
[16]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: [17]calebjess@... [T27Owners]
<[18]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[19]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sun, Dec 10, 2017 1:19 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard


Monica,

When a boat is supported by jack stands the bulk of the weight is
supported by the keel, not the jack stands. The jack stands merely
keep the boat upright. I have heard of people digging a trench under
the keel to access the centerboard trunk while the boat is held up by
jack stands, assuming your boat yard is not paved in concrete ;-) One
might also be able to put blocks under the keel while still allowing
access to the centerboard trunk using jack stands to keep the boat in
place. In any case moving your boat off your trailer would be
necessary to access the slot from below.
The safest way to access the centerboard trunk from the bottom is with
a TravelLift or crane that can handle 4 tons of weight (our boats
weigh around 7200 #s - a bit more than a Sunfish). The lifting straps
would have to be positioned to allow access to the centerboard slot.
I'd expect it might cost you somewhere around $500 to have your boat
put in jack stands or have a crane or travel lift raise your boat for
this job.

The hull shapes between the type 1 & type 2 T27's should be
identical. It is the deck and cabin that is different on the type 2.

The thing that would most worry me about cutting the top off the
centerboard slot, as you are contemplating, would be making the
centerboard trunk air-tight again, since it is all below the water
line. A good fiberglass technician should be able to do this though.
If you proceed with this idea you would be able to easily
inspect/replace the pivot pin as well as
inspect/repair the hole that the lifting pennant requires.

Good luck however you proceed.

My best,
Caleb Davison
T27 #328
NY

-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Malone [20]monicam@... [T27Owners]
<[21]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[22]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sun, Dec 10, 2017 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centerboard

Thanks, Jack. you make it sound so easy. I need to put in a new pivot
bushing, so suggestions are welcome on that. I'm still hung up on
lifting the boat. The folks who have responded make it sound like
you're discussing moving a Sunfish around. I'm thinking I have to get
the boat off the trailer to get access to the centerboard slot. Are
jackstands the way to do this ?
I am also wondering if there are differences between the original and
the type 2 that are relevant to this discussion. Mine is a type 2. I
have to cut the inside fiberglass to get access to the pivot pin. So,
since I have to do fiberglass repair anyway, I was thinking of cutting
the whole top off the centerboard housing & dropping it in from the
top.

Monica Malone PsyD
[23]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Jack T Grant' [24]jack@... [T27Owners]
<[25]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[26]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sun, Dec 10, 2017 9:47 am
Subject: RE: [T27Owners] Centerboard


Monica, I have just finished updating and reinstalling the
centerboard on #345 which was damaged and out of the boat when I
purchased it.
My advice is to install from the bottom (outside) . I
can't imagine what you would have to go through on an internal
installation but it would certainly be far more involved than lifting
the boat 12" to 14" or digging a pit a comparable amount.
w Secondly, if your centerboard is currently out of the
boat, critically examine the pivot bushing for wear. Nor is the time
and opportunity to upgrade a potential failure point. It also is an
excellent time to examine how the pulley system works and attaches to
the centerboard.
Finally, remove the portion of the cabin floorboards
and remove and inspect the centerboard pivot pin.
Actual installation is relatively easy assuming you
have adequate clearance, a couple of floor jacks and a strong friend.
For we "first timers " it took about 45 minutes. I'm certain a boat
yard could do it in a comparable amount of time at launching. However
, it certainly is not a job a typical owner would find overwhelming, I
would think the most critical element would be examining and updating
the pivot bushing if required.
Best regards, and good luck Jack Grant
From: [27]T27Owners@...
[[28]mailto:T27Owners@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 12:36 AM
To: [29]T27Owners@...
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centreboard


Thanks, Caleb. I'm sure I'm going to need lots more advice once I get
into this project.
Monica Malone PsyD
[30]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: [31]calebjess@... [T27Owners]
<[32]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[33]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 9, 2017 11:20 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centreboard

Monica,

I have owned #328 for nearly 15 years now but have not had to do
anything major with my centerboard other than scrape barnacles and
paint it, so take this with a grain of salt.
I also keep my boat on a cradle in the off season so the centerboard
trunk is usually at least partially blocked as it might be on a
trailer (eg, no downward movement possible).
I think you could replace the board from inside the cabin but you
would have to remove most of the top of the centerboard trunk to do so
(limited space for manouvering the board). You might even have to
jack you T27 up an inch or two off the trailer frame to get the board
back in there from above. I have never heard of anyone doing it this
way so I do not recommend it, but I am sure it is possible. Quite a
few members here have replaced the centerboard from below and some
would be glad to talk you through that operation (Marty Levenson has
offered).

My best,
Caleb D.
T27 #328





-----Original Message-----
From: Monica Malone [34]monicam@... [T27Owners]
<[35]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[36]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 9, 2017 11:04 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centreboard

Yes, sinking the boat was not part of the plan.
The boat is on a trailer. I don't know how to get it high enough to
get the centerboard in from the bottom without taking it to a boatyard
to use their lift. My thought was that doing the project on my
property gives me more flexibility timewise to deal with the
unexpected. I thought about digging a grease pit under the boat, but
I'm sure the city would be there in a second demanding a building
permit. Going in from the top would solve the access issue.
Monica Malone PsyD
[37]monicam@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Marty Levenson [38]martylev@... [T27Owners]
<[39]T27Owners@...>
To: T27Owners <[40]T27Owners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 9, 2017 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Centreboard

I just did this last spring, but from the bottom. Hopefully you
already know the boat has to be on the hard. I don***t really see the
advantage of doing it from the top.

It wasn***t that difficult to do, but had some good strong people
below. It took a bit if wiggling around to get it aligned.

In my case I needed new bushings for the pivot pin. Are you clear on
all that, and how the pennant attaches? Not hard to do but a bit
confusing until the penny drops.

There was a bit of last minute adjustment as I had a bronze pin and
custom machined bronze bushings ready to go. Unfortunately the glassed
in (bronze?) fittings that the bushings were to sit in weren***t quite
aligned. Had to grind down two brass nipples to fit, but I know those
won***t last many years.

Fire away with questions if you run into trouble: I had lots of help
from this list, as well as on the phone from Tartan Marine.

Marty
Poseidon T27
Bowen Island, BC.

[41]www.vancouverarttherapy.com

*** sent by carrier pidgeon ***
On Dec 9, 2017, at 7:19 PM, [42]monicam@... [T27Owners]
<[43]T27Owners@...> wrote:


I have a beautifully refurbished centerboard ready to go in my boat.
As I contemplate the difficult logistics of this, I'm wondering if
anyone has installed one from the top ? I have a great fiberglassing
resource, so sealing the trunk up again won't be a problem.





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