开云体育

ctrl + shift + ? for shortcuts
© 2025 开云体育

Building a rudder #rudder


 

I own a compass cat boat. L16’. Beam 6’6”

the barn door style rudder is made of plastic and weighs too much. It also flexes. ?


has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?


 

开云体育

has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?

I made one that’s perfectly stiff, and works beautifully, but it isn’t light at all — this was for a Tech dinghy whose original rudder sank in a capsize. ?Its weight comes from:

— the blade is laminated of 5 layers of 1/4” lauan ply, ground to a NACA 0012 profile and then glassed with two layers of 6 oz glass fabric in WEST epoxy.

— it’s housed in a cassette with a kick-up pivot, and the cassette is 1/4’ lauan ply too, 1 layer thick at the top and two layers down where it sandwiches the blade, with solid lumber 1 1/4 square or so around the front, top, and half the back (the places that don’t interfere with the blade, down or up).

The original was sort of a halfway-barn-door layout but I ditched that for narrow and deep to have better performance, which I definitely got (but paid for with the kick-up complication, necessary if the rudder were to reach deep in a beachable boat. ?When it kicks up then it functions as a long barn-door shape.

For light?and stiff, I’d try?
— one piece, no kick-up scheme
— ‘glass/epoxy over a styrofoam core, probably at least four layers of 6 oz glass (maybe 6 near the tiller joint and leading edge), and with something like a 1” x 4” (full inches) stick of wood as the front edge of the core, to receive the tiller torque and to bolt the pintles into without crushing it.

(DO NOT attempt to use polyester resin, including Bondo, on a styrofoam core — you’ll find the core dissolving.)

— I think a wood core along the lower edge would also be prudent for when it runs aground.

For barn-door rudders, NACA profiles are a bit silly but still if the rudder protrudes below the transom I’d round the nose of that portion with something like a 2” long half-ellipse. ?Otherwise just shape it to fit the pintles.

I’d ?taper the trailing edge for about 4”, but not to so thin an edge it became fragile — maybe to 1/4” or so, and maybe put a wood core in the aft inch or so.

For extra stiffness and sturdiness, I’d use 1.5” foam instead of 1” and taper it a bit to the leading edge, maybe with some filler to fair the joint there. (Thickened epoxy — silica for thickener and microballoons to minimize weight) (NOT BONDO). ?And taper the trailing 6” instead of 4”.

Bending load is going to be max at the leading edge and taper off to near zero at the trailing ?edge, so you might use only 2-3 layers of glass full length but build up steadily as you go forward, to 6 layers wrapped around the leading edge and reaching back a foot or so. ?Every layer should wrap the leading edge, to help pick up the tension from the tiller torque and deliver it aft.

Minimize weight by taking care to use only just barely as much resin as you need to get each layer of glass fully wet, with diligent stippling with your chip brush. ?Do get it fully wetted, no entrained air, but count on stippling each layer for some minutes to get it there. ?If you just slather it and drown it, you get much thicker epoxy layers than you need, and extra weight.

To minimize the stair-step effect from the successively fewer layers of glass, you could glass it with all but the last layer of glass, then fair it with thickened epoxy (silica for thickener and microballoons to minimize weight) and sand it (sparingly — don’t go through the glass you just put on)?
— and then put on the last layer of glass.

If you let the epoxy set between applying one layer and the next (which does keep the work more controllable — you might manage two layers at a time but I wouldn’t attempt more), then take steps to remove the “amine blush” that will interfere with adhesion of the next layer, and also sand off any projecting glass fibers and resin that would prop up the next layer.

Rounding and tapering are prior to glassing, of course. ?I’d blue up the core including whatever wooden edges you fit into it, and then fair the whole thing, then glass it. ?Do beware that the sander will chew way faster on the foam than on the wood.

… and be warned that when you sand styrofoam it goes everywhere, and it clings. ?Wear breathing protection and keep a shop vac close by. ?If at all possible use a sander with a vac hose on it.

have fun
Crispin Miller


On Oct 26, 2019, at 3:55 PM, yermanjf <jfyiii.mail@...> wrote:

I own a compass cat boat. L16’. Beam 6’6”

the barn door style rudder is made of plastic and weighs too much. It also flexes. ?


has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?



 

开云体育

Sentence near the end should read

滨’诲?glue?up the core….

sorry

(and for glue I’d use epoxy, moderatel thickened so it doesn’t drool out)

cm

On Oct 26, 2019, at 6:15 PM, Crispin Miller <crispinmm@...> wrote:

has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?

I made one that’s perfectly stiff, and works beautifully, but it isn’t light at all — this was for a Tech dinghy whose original rudder sank in a capsize. ?Its weight comes from:

— the blade is laminated of 5 layers of 1/4” lauan ply, ground to a NACA 0012 profile and then glassed with two layers of 6 oz glass fabric in WEST epoxy.

— it’s housed in a cassette with a kick-up pivot, and the cassette is 1/4’ lauan ply too, 1 layer thick at the top and two layers down where it sandwiches the blade, with solid lumber 1 1/4 square or so around the front, top, and half the back (the places that don’t interfere with the blade, down or up).

The original was sort of a halfway-barn-door layout but I ditched that for narrow and deep to have better performance, which I definitely got (but paid for with the kick-up complication, necessary if the rudder were to reach deep in a beachable boat. ?When it kicks up then it functions as a long barn-door shape.

For light?and stiff, I’d try?
— one piece, no kick-up scheme
— ‘glass/epoxy over a styrofoam core, probably at least four layers of 6 oz glass (maybe 6 near the tiller joint and leading edge), and with something like a 1” x 4” (full inches) stick of wood as the front edge of the core, to receive the tiller torque and to bolt the pintles into without crushing it.

(DO NOT attempt to use polyester resin, including Bondo, on a styrofoam core — you’ll find the core dissolving.)

— I think a wood core along the lower edge would also be prudent for when it runs aground.

For barn-door rudders, NACA profiles are a bit silly but still if the rudder protrudes below the transom I’d round the nose of that portion with something like a 2” long half-ellipse. ?Otherwise just shape it to fit the pintles.

I’d ?taper the trailing edge for about 4”, but not to so thin an edge it became fragile — maybe to 1/4” or so, and maybe put a wood core in the aft inch or so.

For extra stiffness and sturdiness, I’d use 1.5” foam instead of 1” and taper it a bit to the leading edge, maybe with some filler to fair the joint there. (Thickened epoxy — silica for thickener and microballoons to minimize weight) (NOT BONDO). ?And taper the trailing 6” instead of 4”.

Bending load is going to be max at the leading edge and taper off to near zero at the trailing ?edge, so you might use only 2-3 layers of glass full length but build up steadily as you go forward, to 6 layers wrapped around the leading edge and reaching back a foot or so. ?Every layer should wrap the leading edge, to help pick up the tension from the tiller torque and deliver it aft.

Minimize weight by taking care to use only just barely as much resin as you need to get each layer of glass fully wet, with diligent stippling with your chip brush. ?Do get it fully wetted, no entrained air, but count on stippling each layer for some minutes to get it there. ?If you just slather it and drown it, you get much thicker epoxy layers than you need, and extra weight.

To minimize the stair-step effect from the successively fewer layers of glass, you could glass it with all but the last layer of glass, then fair it with thickened epoxy (silica for thickener and microballoons to minimize weight) and sand it (sparingly — don’t go through the glass you just put on)?
— and then put on the last layer of glass.

If you let the epoxy set between applying one layer and the next (which does keep the work more controllable — you might manage two layers at a time but I wouldn’t attempt more), then take steps to remove the “amine blush” that will interfere with adhesion of the next layer, and also sand off any projecting glass fibers and resin that would prop up the next layer.

Rounding and tapering are prior to glassing, of course. ?I’d blue up the core including whatever wooden edges you fit into it, and then fair the whole thing, then glass it. ?Do beware that the sander will chew way faster on the foam than on the wood.

… and be warned that when you sand styrofoam it goes everywhere, and it clings. ?Wear breathing protection and keep a shop vac close by. ?If at all possible use a sander with a vac hose on it.

have fun
Crispin Miller


On Oct 26, 2019, at 3:55 PM, yermanjf <jfyiii.mail@...> wrote:

I own a compass cat boat. L16’. Beam 6’6”

the barn door style rudder is made of plastic and weighs too much. It also flexes. ?


has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?




 

If you don't mind doing surgery on the existing rudder, you could drill some lightening holes thru it, then wrap the outside in glass or carbon fiber mat, with epoxy. Light and very stiff is using the carbon fiber. ?If carbon fiber mat costs too much, you can use carbon fiber tape, laid out in strips, almost as good. They might even act as turbulators, unless your overcoat of epoxy is well-faired.


 

Beautiful boat and salty crew dog.

What are the dimensions of the rudder? And sometimes we might not want lightweight for balance issues. I just got a leeboard for a Grumman canoe and it is a huge piece of mahogany, heavy. The 17 Double ender carried 2 of them, I can feel how it would have helped with balance. I'd consider a 3/4" piece of marine grade plywood, sealed with 3 coats epoxy, 2 coats marine primer and then marine paint. Or if you can find a good piece of 3/4" cypress, spline or dowel (drift pin) 2 pieces together, like they did old school.

Where is her homeport?

--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?


 

开云体育

On Oct 26, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Mark Suszko <mark.suszko@...> wrote:

If you don't mind doing surgery on the existing rudder, you could drill some lightening holes thru it, then wrap the outside in glass or carbon fiber mat, with epoxy. Light and very stiff is using the carbon fiber. ?If carbon fiber mat costs too much, you can use carbon fiber tape, laid out in strips, almost as good. They might even act as turbulators, unless your overcoat of epoxy is well-faired.

I agree and this could save a lot of work — since you’re going to be transforming it to serve as just the core, you could drill it out quite radically, in a honeycomb layout, and with careful hole spacingmaybe cut its weigh by 50% or more.

To avoid waterlogging in case of leaks, you could temporarily tape over the back side to close the holes and then fill them with, for example, polyurethane insulation foam ("Great Stuff,” or more professional two-component versions that will set more uniformly) and sand it flush after it sets, then pull off the tape and apply glass/carbon as Mark has suggested. ?Test it first to learn how much expansion to expect — it’s a lot.

But looking at the shape of your rudder in the photo, unless the narrow stem reaching down from the tiller joint is especially thickened, I wonder if a lot of your flex may be from twist in that area. ?If it is, you might need to add especially much fiber here, of whatever kind — and if it’s tape, run the fibers at 45-degree slopes in both directions, so that they give torsional stiffness — wrapping on around the edges and continuing their spiral on the far side, until they finally run off the top or bottom. Or for the tapes that end up lining up with the broader blade, those can run on down across it, delivering the tiller torque to the blade. ?The you can fair those and put a second layer straight fore-aft on the blade. ?Or maybe slightly better, put the fore-aft layer on first, so then the torsion layer, which carries a more severe load, is farther out and gets a bit more mechanical advantage. ?Not a big difference, though.

All this assumes that the flexy plastic you’re complaining about is not polyethylene or polypropylene, which epoxy can’t stick to. ?You might still get away with it if you drill it out so much, and put in such good foam, that the foam in your holes becomes your structural core…

best,
cm



 

开云体育

Yes, I have built a nice rudder out of ash with splines in the joined edges to prevent warping.



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: yermanjf <jfyiii.mail@...>
Date: 10/26/19 3:55 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [SunfishSailor] Building a rudder #rudder

I own a compass cat boat. L16’. Beam 6’6”

the barn door style rudder is made of plastic and weighs too much. It also flexes. ?


has anyone constructed a light weight and stiff rudder?


 

开云体育

Back to my big-project verson for a minute. ?Just in case this wasn’t clear —

Bending load is going to be max at the leading edge and taper off to near zero at the trailing ?edge, so you might use only 2-3 layers of glass full length but build up steadily as you go forward, to 6 layers wrapped around the leading edge and reaching back a foot or so. ?Every layer should wrap the leading edge, to help pick up the tension from the tiller torque and deliver it aft.

if for example your rudder reaches 30” aft, the if you leave one full layer of glass for last, the schedule preceding that could be:

one layer wrapping leading edge and reaching fully aft from pintles to trailing edge on both faces
one layer wrapping leading edge and reaching 24” aft on both faces
one layer wrapping leading edge and reaching 18” aft on both faces
one layer wrapping leading edge and reaching 12” aft on both faces
one layer wrapping leading edge and reaching 6” aft on both faces
then fair all that

then a final layer wrapping leading edge and reaching fully aft on both faces.


 

If it were mine, I wouldn't work on the existing rudder. For one thing the plastic it's made of is likely heavy and not very rigid. For another, it would mean not sailing the boat until the project was finished.

I would start with foam coring material (e.g. klegecell). This is a lightweight foam that you can easily carve to shape. It comes in various densities and thicknesses. Then I would wrap it lightly with glass and resin, probably adding a bit more glass to the edges for protection. I wouldn't worry about using carbon fiber. There's not enough cloth for that to make a big difference. I would concentrate on using the minimum amount of resin to soak the cloth.

- George

On 10/26/19 6:32 PM, Mark Suszko wrote:
If you don't mind doing surgery on the existing rudder, you could drill some lightening holes thru it, then wrap the outside in glass or carbon fiber mat, with epoxy. Light and very stiff is using the carbon fiber. ?If carbon fiber mat costs too much, you can use carbon fiber tape, laid out in strips, almost as good. They might even act as turbulators, unless your overcoat of epoxy is well-faired.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born. also see:
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
----------------------------------------------------------------------


 

开云体育

I made? my rudder out of an old mahogany center board.? Traced it from a borrowed pattern, ?cut it out and then a lot of planning and sanding.? Drilled holes for hardware and three-four coats of marine poly-urethane.? Pretty easy.

Mr Mike

?

Sent from for Windows 10

?


From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of gdinwiddie <sunfish@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2019 10:27:30 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [SunfishSailor] Building a rudder #rudder
?
If it were mine, I wouldn't work on the existing rudder. For one thing
the plastic it's made of is likely heavy and not very rigid. For
another, it would mean not sailing the boat until the project was finished.

I would start with foam coring material (e.g. klegecell). This is a
lightweight foam that you can easily carve to shape. It comes in various
densities and thicknesses. Then I would wrap it lightly with glass and
resin, probably adding a bit more glass to the edges for protection. I
wouldn't worry about using carbon fiber. There's not enough cloth for
that to make a big difference. I would concentrate on using the minimum
amount of resin to soak the cloth.

? - George

On 10/26/19 6:32 PM, Mark Suszko wrote:
> If you don't mind doing surgery on the existing rudder, you could drill
> some lightening holes thru it, then wrap the outside in glass or carbon
> fiber mat, with epoxy. Light and very stiff is using the carbon fiber.
>? ?If carbon fiber mat costs too much, you can use carbon fiber tape,
> laid out in strips, almost as good. They might even act as turbulators,
> unless your overcoat of epoxy is well-faired.

--
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
?? When I remember bygone days???????????????????????? George Dinwiddie
?? I think how evening follows morn;??????????? gdinwiddie@...
?? So many I loved were not yet dead,??????????
?? So many I love were not yet born.????????????????????????? also see:
??????????????? 'The Middle' by Ogden Nash????
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------







 

Kip from over on the facebook Catboat Association page reports good results with this company?
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?