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Sailors,
First, I would like to thank Signal Charlie for creating, maintaining and moderating this resource. ?It truly is excellent.
The Super Sailfish Prints, located in the files section, shows the side planks with vertical notches cut periodically in the forward sections, presumably to help the plank make the curve in the bow. ?In all of the restorations that have been done, has anyone seen a boat with these sides? ?In the research I have done, (this group, on Sailing Forums, Smallboatrestorations, small boats monthly, and any number of other websites) I haven't found any mention to a boat with these sides.
This question is more specifically for Signal Charlie, but all input is welcome. ?During the restoration of ZSA ZSA, you mentioned that you now have the measurements for the new style bow, and then you provide a link to the plans. ?Are those measurements reflected in the prints, or are they different? ?Are there any other significant measurement differences in ZSA ZSA from the prints?
Finally, what are the basic dimensions for the new style sunfish rudder gudgeon? ?Length / Width / Height? ?Again, I can't seem to find that anywhere...
Thank you for your time and attention,
EMNCSS
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Hello
You're welcome. It was started years ago by a great group of Sunfish Sailors.
The vertical notches are called kerfs. Depending on the stiffness of the wood used, they are cut if needed to bend the wood, on the inside face of the plank. I have only seen one or two boats with the deck or bottom off, and no mention of the kerfs. So kerf if needed. Or steam bend
The newer bow measurements are not included, I can post them later today. They are within an inch or so width and depth , in the first 3 feet of the bow, making the later version a little fuller to keep the bow from submarining as much. There are no other significant differences.
I'll also measure the new style gudgeon.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
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Hi , I recently built a Sailfish- attached is a photo of the kerfs in the side timber.(unfortunately already epoxied up)
The plank is initially too stiff to bend( even with steaming) , but the kerfs make it amazingly pliable.
Details are on the plans .
Nico Louw South Africa
On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 2:25 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Hello
You're welcome. It was started years ago by a great group of Sunfish Sailors.
The vertical notches are called kerfs. Depending on the stiffness of the wood used, they are cut if needed to bend the wood, on the inside face of the plank. I have only seen one or two boats with the deck or bottom off, and no mention of the kerfs. So kerf if needed. Or steam bend
The newer bow measurements are not included, I can post them later today. They are within an inch or so width and depth , in the first 3 feet of the bow, making the later version a little fuller to keep the bow from submarining as much. There are no other significant differences.
I'll also measure the new style gudgeon.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Hi all,
I built a Sailfish years ago, Serial No. 77739, which I still have in my shop. I also have the the assembly instructions, with pictures. There are no kerfs cut into the side planks. However, the photos do show that they are bent -- so they must have been steam bent at the factory. If it helps, the instructions show attachment to the bow (port and then starboard) before working your way aft as you bring the sides in.
My recollection is is that a can of "cuprinol" came with the kit. We used it all up coating and recoating the insides before we nailed on the bottom panels...
Best regards, Jerry Culik
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:37 PM nico louw < njlouw@...> wrote: Hi , I recently built a Sailfish- attached is a photo of the kerfs in the side timber.(unfortunately already epoxied up)
The plank is initially too stiff to bend( even with steaming) , but the kerfs make it amazingly pliable.
Details are on the plans .
Nico Louw South Africa
On Sun, Jan 19, 2020 at 2:25 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Hello
You're welcome. It was started years ago by a great group of Sunfish Sailors.
The vertical notches are called kerfs. Depending on the stiffness of the wood used, they are cut if needed to bend the wood, on the inside face of the plank. I have only seen one or two boats with the deck or bottom off, and no mention of the kerfs. So kerf if needed. Or steam bend
The newer bow measurements are not included, I can post them later today. They are within an inch or so width and depth , in the first 3 feet of the bow, making the later version a little fuller to keep the bow from submarining as much. There are no other significant differences.
I'll also measure the new style gudgeon.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Thank you all for the replies. ?I especially like the pictures of the kerfs you provided Nico. ?
As you probably guessed, I am considering building a Super Sailfish myself. ?I am excited to hear that others have already done this.
I have drawn about 80% of the parts in a 3D CAD program (complete with the kerfs in the sides) with the intention to find a local shop that will cut the pieces out with a CNC router. ?Currently, my thoughts have moved to how to finish the inside, the outside, and which rudder (and hardware) I want to use. ?I initially want to use fiberglass and epoxy, similar to how a cedar strip canoe would be "encapsulated", but I am afraid of making the boat excessively heavy. ?
As the prints don't specify (unless i missed it) I assumed the stations to be 1/2" plywood. ?Now, after some review of different restorations and such, I am starting to doubt that. ?Are they 1/4" in the kits and home builds?
Nico / Jerry, what were some of your greatest challenges during your builds? ?
Thank you
EMNCSS
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Skip the fiberglass, prime and paint it. Or epoxy with epoxy based paint over the top. Cloth will add unneeded weight.?
Stations are 1/4 inch plywood, with lightening holes cut into them.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
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I'd at least glass the bottom and bottom edges, that's only being practical. ? I wonder if anybody's re-imagined the construction of the Sailfish or SuperSailfish in glassedfoam planks? ?With a few more thin glassed bulkheads inside, it could be super-stiff yet light. And unsinkable.
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We had resorcinol glue -- not epoxy -- back then, so tight fit of wood joints was important. That's probably where getting the kit paid off. Today we have epoxy, so you've got some leeway. If I was building it today, I would coat the inside with epoxy to seal it (not coat with cuprinol...). Our biggest challenge was finishing it since the paints didn't come with the kit. Today we've got West Marine, and lots of choices, and better (tougher) bottom paints.?
If you want to follow the kit sequence, build it with the bottom up. Attach the framing to the deck, then add the sides and transom. The kit had ringed nails to attach the bottom panels -- I would probably just epoxy them now. I think the outer keel was something pretty tough (oak?) -- it's still fine in spite of plenty of beaching.
For years we cartopped the boat from Maine to Michigan and were pretty hard on it. Then my brother used it with HIS kids for years. Since we didn't have epoxies, we didn't glass it, and the hull is still in very good shape. I would build it light -- it's a small boat. Limit your glassing -- and maybe leave out the ringed nails.
I took my father out once into the St. Lawrence River. Can you imagine the boat nosing down into the chop? We did make it home without capsizing ; )
Jerry
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 6:47 PM EMNCSS < knrooney@...> wrote: Thank you all for the replies.? I especially like the pictures of the kerfs you provided Nico. ?
As you probably guessed, I am considering building a Super Sailfish myself.? I am excited to hear that others have already done this.
I have drawn about 80% of the parts in a 3D CAD program (complete with the kerfs in the sides) with the intention to find a local shop that will cut the pieces out with a CNC router.? Currently, my thoughts have moved to how to finish the inside, the outside, and which rudder (and hardware) I want to use.? I initially want to use fiberglass and epoxy, similar to how a cedar strip canoe would be "encapsulated", but I am afraid of making the boat excessively heavy. ?
As the prints don't specify (unless i missed it) I assumed the stations to be 1/2" plywood.? Now, after some review of different restorations and such, I am starting to doubt that.? Are they 1/4" in the kits and home builds?
Nico / Jerry, what were some of your greatest challenges during your builds? ?
Thank you
EMNCSS
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While I don't plan to glass my wood super sunfish based on Signal Charlie's experience, I came across this boat recently that seems to apply a similar design concept to the sailfish?
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Frames were 1/4-inch ply with cleats on each end. Looks like there is a notch at each frame end, and around the deck beam and keel -- top and bottom -- for good drainage.?
Without epoxy, the biggest delam problem is along the edges of the ply panels, and around the nail heads, even though they were sunk and filled. When I repaint the boat I'm going to use epoxy to seal the plywood edges (SOP today...). Then fill, sand, prime and paint. I might treat the bottom panels to a couple of coats of epoxy to seal it. No glass is needed.?
Jerry
I'd at least glass the bottom and bottom edges, that's only being practical. ? I wonder if anybody's re-imagined the construction of the Sailfish or SuperSailfish in glassedfoam planks?? With a few more thin glassed bulkheads inside, it could be super-stiff yet light. And unsinkable.
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Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
I'm going to build another one this summer (current one is a flying fish from the 50s and has issues).? My plan is to build it like a stitch and glue boat with 1/4 plywood for the skin and 1/2 plywood for the frames.? I'll use some mechanical fasteners, since I'll be glassing and fairing / painting the hull but it'll mainly be held together with epoxy?fillets. My thought was to make the frames and then either drill large holes in them, or saw out the middle to save as much weight as possible without causing structural issues, and to allow more air to circulate inside.? Planning on painting the inside with epoxy to keep it waterproof.? I've also been considering using some 2-part foam for extra flotation, but there's a lot of negatives with that -- mainly getting / keeping it dry.? My son also suggested putting a much bigger drain plug in -- something more the size of a small inspection port.? That should allow a lot of airflow.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:45 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Hi, My biggest challenge was to master the scarfing technique of plywood sheets for the deck and hulls. Took many practice runs on some off-cut pieces in order to perfect the technique.( Scarf technique is used to join two pieces of ply) .
I did also add an inspection port toward the front of the deck. Also drilled large holes into the frames.
I have attached some photos.
Nico Louw
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 6:56 PM Shawn L < shawn@...> wrote: I'm going to build another one this summer (current one is a flying fish from the 50s and has issues).? My plan is to build it like a stitch and glue boat with 1/4 plywood for the skin and 1/2 plywood for the frames.? I'll use some mechanical fasteners, since I'll be glassing and fairing / painting the hull but it'll mainly be held together with epoxy?fillets. My thought was to make the frames and then either drill large holes in them, or saw out the middle to save as much weight as possible without causing structural issues, and to allow more air to circulate inside.? Planning on painting the inside with epoxy to keep it waterproof.? I've also been considering using some 2-part foam for extra flotation, but there's a lot of negatives with that -- mainly getting / keeping it dry.? My son also suggested putting a much bigger drain plug in -- something more the size of a small inspection port.? That should allow a lot of airflow.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:45 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
A little technique I use to dry out a hull.? I did it on my Force5 but is easily applied to my Sunfish.? I have an old Electrolux vacuum cleaner that I insert into an app 1’5 inch hole I cut in forward cockpit.? I reverse the hose on the
vacuum so it is blowing, and use a small heater to warm the incoming air.? The air blows forward but escsapes out of my rear inspection port or the drain plug.? In a day or so it will be as dry as you are gonna get it. ?I made a plug for the hole. ?Foam provides
buoyancy as well as rigidity but being pourous, it holds water.
?
Mr Mike
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Sent from for Windows 10
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From: nico louw
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 2:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SunfishSailor] Sailfish Prints
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Hi,
My biggest challenge was to master the scarfing technique of plywood sheets for the deck and hulls. Took many practice runs on some off-cut pieces in order to perfect the technique.( Scarf technique is used to join two pieces of ply) .
I did also add an inspection port toward the front of the deck. Also drilled large holes into the frames.
I have attached some photos.
?
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 6:56 PM Shawn L <shawn@...> wrote:
I'm going to build another one this summer (current one is a flying fish from the 50s and has issues).? My plan is to build it like a stitch and glue boat with 1/4 plywood for the skin and 1/2 plywood for the frames.? I'll use some mechanical
fasteners, since I'll be glassing and fairing / painting the hull but it'll mainly be held together with epoxy?fillets.
?
My thought was to make the frames and then either drill large holes in them, or saw out the middle to save as much weight as possible without causing structural issues, and to allow more air to circulate inside.? Planning on painting the
inside with epoxy to keep it waterproof.? I've also been considering using some 2-part foam for extra flotation, but there's a lot of negatives with that -- mainly getting / keeping it dry.? My son also suggested putting a much bigger drain plug in -- something
more the size of a small inspection port.? That should allow a lot of airflow.
?
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:45 PM Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our
lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or
pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Kent Lewis is a great guy!
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
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-------- Original message -------- From: nico louw <njlouw@...> Date: 1/21/20 2:20 PM (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [SunfishSailor] Sailfish Prints
Hi, My biggest challenge was to master the scarfing technique of plywood sheets for the deck and hulls. Took many practice runs on some off-cut pieces in order to perfect the technique.( Scarf technique is used to join two pieces of ply) .
I did also add an inspection port toward the front of the deck. Also drilled large holes into the frames.
I have attached some photos.
Nico Louw
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 6:56 PM Shawn L < shawn@...> wrote: I'm going to build another one this summer (current one is a flying fish from the 50s and has issues).? My plan is to build it like a stitch and glue boat with 1/4 plywood for the skin and 1/2 plywood for the frames.? I'll use some mechanical fasteners, since I'll be glassing and fairing / painting the hull but it'll mainly be held together with epoxy?fillets. My thought was to make the frames and then either drill large holes in them, or saw out the middle to save as much weight as possible without causing structural issues, and to allow more air to circulate inside.? Planning on painting the inside with epoxy to keep it waterproof.? I've also been considering using some 2-part foam for extra flotation, but there's a lot of negatives with that -- mainly getting / keeping it dry.? My son also suggested putting a much bigger drain plug in -- something more the size of a small inspection port.? That should allow a lot of airflow.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:45 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Re: foam for stiffening and flotation
The brown?formaldehyde?foam, and "styrofoam", that were used in flotation chambers back in the old days will hold water until they are saturated -- well known to the Sunfish tribe. The two-part polyurethane foams used today are supposedly "closed cell" and don't hold water. Extruded polystyrene (XPS) foams that you find at the big box stores (e.g., "Foamular") are very low cost, easy to cut and fit, and don't absorb water (and are fairly stiff, too). That's been my choice.?
Jerry
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:56 AM Shawn L < shawn@...> wrote: I'm going to build another one this summer (current one is a flying fish from the 50s and has issues).? My plan is to build it like a stitch and glue boat with 1/4 plywood for the skin and 1/2 plywood for the frames.? I'll use some mechanical fasteners, since I'll be glassing and fairing / painting the hull but it'll mainly be held together with epoxy?fillets. My thought was to make the frames and then either drill large holes in them, or saw out the middle to save as much weight as possible without causing structural issues, and to allow more air to circulate inside.? Planning on painting the inside with epoxy to keep it waterproof.? I've also been considering using some 2-part foam for extra flotation, but there's a lot of negatives with that -- mainly getting / keeping it dry.? My son also suggested putting a much bigger drain plug in -- something more the size of a small inspection port.? That should allow a lot of airflow.
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 7:45 PM Signal Charlie < lewis.kent@...> wrote: Great info Jerry. You are right, I didn't think about it when I put the bottom back on our Super Sailfish with thickened epoxy, I could have screwed it down while it dried, then removed the screws and puttied the holes...like I did on our lapstrake Penobscot. The sides, longerons, transom and stem were oak. Trunk and step as well.
We painted the inside of ZSA ZSA while she was open with topside paint. I have read that the insides were either left bare, like we found our Sunfish CHIP, or coated with something similar to Cuprinol. We left CHIP's innards bare. A thinned coat of epoxy or pick your brand of wood sealer would work as well, just enough to get any water that got inside to sheet off and run to a drain hole.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
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Shawn, I have to agree with earlier comments that 1/4 inch ply is strong enough for your frames. After all, the frames are side loaded, and the plywood (like most materials) is much stronger in that direction. If 1/4 inch is strong enough for the planking, it is certainly strong enough for the frames.
-Worth
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Thank you very much to everyone that has responded with their personal experiences, clarifications of details, photos, and recommendations. ?It is all so useful.
I'll give an update once I get all the parts drawn up.
Keep the knowledge coming... ?This is great!
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The Super Sailfish we have has the bow tucked up about 3/4 inch compared to the Super Sailfish prints, in other words it is not as full at the bow as the print measurements. It eases over about 4 feet and the measurements are the same after that. I read that Alcort tucked the bow up a bit to help prevent submarining.?
As for the Stainless gudgeon, how about buying one, then you can test fit it? I checked one a few years back for potential conversion and what you'd have to do is add short wooden shims on the deck and the keel, less than an inch each. I'll try to get tone to measure it, when I can remember!
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Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
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Thanks for the details about the bow measurements. ?I might include those changes in my iteration.
I seriously considered buying one of the rudder gudgeons to ensure my design worked. ?$40ish just seemed like an avoidable cost at this stage in my project development, given the number of boats out there with this part. ?
Aware that the gudgeon would extend approximately an inch below the bottom of the boat, I made some rough guesses at size and developed a shim/fairing that would support the use of the newer style rudder. ?The part needs a little bit of refinement, but as is, would be functional (assuming i guessed at the measurements correctly). ?It has been a fun project. ?Honestly, doing the research into each part of the Super Sailfish has been a fun project. ?I don't even have one of these boats and am already having a blast.
Thanks again.
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Signal Charlie
