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Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
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Right you are. A Hiking strap is a piece of webbing (seatbelt) that attaches to the floor or near the floor of the boat's cockpit. It provides a place to hook your feet so you can hang your body over the edge of the boat and not slip overboard. Take a look in the group PHOTOS section - in the member's folder - Blent Artz posted a photo that illustrates how you can lean your whole torso overboard (hike out). As you deduced, Running is sailing the boat with the wind at your back. Have a look at this diagram: I have another boat with the same spring arrangement you have. Either way works - sort of. On my Sunfish the carpet does replace the spring friction and allows me to set the daggerboard at any height I choose - very convenient for approaching the beach - and something the board mounted spring won't let me do at all. I have marked the board so I know when I have 1' and 6" extending below the hull. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Running Flat?
Ed Conley
My sailing experience is limited to about 100hrs in my "Fish-clone" and
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100hrs as a mate on a 35' Pearson. Perhaps I do not fully understand the use of the Hiking strap on the "Fish". Is it being used as an aid in allowing you to lean overboard more to balance the boat? If this is so.... How do you typically hold onto the strap? Is running before the wind the same as having the wind at your back and sailing in the same direction? On my "Fish-clone" the spring clip is mounted on the deck and down into the trunk hole about 3 inches. Are you suggesting that the carpet is a replacement for this spring? Thanks Wayne for your help. Ed -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Carney [mailto:wcarney@...] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 5:31 PM To: sunfish_sailor@... Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? Hi Ed, I'm sorry, I should have elaborated. Sailing flat refers to keeping the hull as level as possible. Sunfish and similar designs have a shallow hull profile known as a planing hull. These boats are fastest when they do not heel over much. Adding a hiking strap allows you to hike out as far as possible to counter the wind leverage and thereby keep the hull level. You are correct about the daggerboard's function to counter side slip. Adjusting the daggerboard depth is separate from keeping the hull level, though. It is commonly lifted when running before the wind in competition to reduce drag and get that extra bit of speed that may help win a race. I also agree with your observation that if you lift the board while on a reach side slip occurs and it reduces your ability to point close to the wind. The racers may have different positions for each angle to the wind, but recreational sailors usually don't mess with it. Sunfish do have a spring that keeps the daggerboard from floating up on the wood boards. The spring is a bowed metal strip about an inch wide that is set into the top 4" of the daggerboard. It puts mild pressure against the side of the trunk to help hold the board in place (when it works). Moving the board while on a reach has the added side pressure of the water and is more difficult. If you want to make the board more easy to move while sailing try the "carpet strips in the daggerboard trunk" method. My 2 cents on crew...., When I sail a Sunfish with a second person, one of takes the tiller and the other the sheet. We trade off from time to time giving both of us practice at honing our skills at one operation at a time. This is an especially useful practice when sailing with and overseeing a novice. Wayne > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed [mailto:conley49@...] > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 4:40 PM > To: sunfish_sailor@... > Subject: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? > > > Wayne, in one of your messages you mentioned running flat by > installing a hiking strap. Does this mean that your Dagger Board > lifts freely from the boat? In my GC14 the board is held in position > by a spring clip so to withdraw it while under sail is extreamly > difficult. Something I have experienced having gone aground in a > lake shallow. Do the real Sunfish have a different set up? > > By reducing the surface area of the Dagger Board in the water doesn't > this allow the wind to push the boat abeam? I understand how the > reduced area would be benificial in a down wind run but in your > described higher speed ab workout wouldn't you loose the ability to > gain in up wind travel? > > Does anyone have any experience in sailing with two hands? My > daughter and I frequently sail together as she is not quite ready for > a solo yet. Actually she is technically proficient (sp?) but has not > demonstrated her ability to right the boat in a blow over. > > Anyone game of a tech discussion? > > Ed > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT If you do not wish to belong to Sunfish_sailor, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... Please do not send unsubscribe requests directly to the group. USEFUL ADDRESSES Post message: sunfish_sailor@... Subscribe: sunfish_sailor-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... URL to egroups page: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
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Re: Rudder VIbration
Wayne Carney
Charles,
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I use contact cement. So far it has lasted over five years. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Rudder VIbration
What kind of adhesive do you use? And how often would you have to replace
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the carpet? Charles Wayne wrote: The other thing you can do is to line the daggerboard trunk with |
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Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Hi Ed,
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I'm sorry, I should have elaborated. Sailing flat refers to keeping the hull as level as possible. Sunfish and similar designs have a shallow hull profile known as a planing hull. These boats are fastest when they do not heel over much. Adding a hiking strap allows you to hike out as far as possible to counter the wind leverage and thereby keep the hull level. You are correct about the daggerboard's function to counter side slip. Adjusting the daggerboard depth is separate from keeping the hull level, though. It is commonly lifted when running before the wind in competition to reduce drag and get that extra bit of speed that may help win a race. I also agree with your observation that if you lift the board while on a reach side slip occurs and it reduces your ability to point close to the wind. The racers may have different positions for each angle to the wind, but recreational sailors usually don't mess with it. Sunfish do have a spring that keeps the daggerboard from floating up on the wood boards. The spring is a bowed metal strip about an inch wide that is set into the top 4" of the daggerboard. It puts mild pressure against the side of the trunk to help hold the board in place (when it works). Moving the board while on a reach has the added side pressure of the water and is more difficult. If you want to make the board more easy to move while sailing try the "carpet strips in the daggerboard trunk" method. My 2 cents on crew...., When I sail a Sunfish with a second person, one of takes the tiller and the other the sheet. We trade off from time to time giving both of us practice at honing our skills at one operation at a time. This is an especially useful practice when sailing with and overseeing a novice. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Running Flat?
Ed
Wayne, in one of your messages you mentioned running flat by
installing a hiking strap. Does this mean that your Dagger Board lifts freely from the boat? In my GC14 the board is held in position by a spring clip so to withdraw it while under sail is extreamly difficult. Something I have experienced having gone aground in a lake shallow. Do the real Sunfish have a different set up? By reducing the surface area of the Dagger Board in the water doesn't this allow the wind to push the boat abeam? I understand how the reduced area would be benificial in a down wind run but in your described higher speed ab workout wouldn't you loose the ability to gain in up wind travel? Does anyone have any experience in sailing with two hands? My daughter and I frequently sail together as she is not quite ready for a solo yet. Actually she is technically proficient (sp?) but has not demonstrated her ability to right the boat in a blow over. Anyone game of a tech discussion? Ed |
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Rudder Humm
Wayne Carney
Ed,
Here is an excerpt from the sunfishclass.org, FAQ and two additional links to articles addressing rudder and daggerboard humm. The first of the links applies to aluminum blades and the second to plastic. I think the one for plastic foils would also apply to wood and fiberglass. Wayne ------------------------------------------ From: sunfishclass.org Frequently Asked Questions Sunfish Tuning Guide for Racers "Two operations should be performed to the daggerboard trunk to ensure a scratch- and vibration-free board. First, sand the sides of the trunk, both top and bottom, until any sharp ridge is eliminated. Secondly, add 13-inch by 1-inch carpet or other protective strips to the fore and aft walls of the trunk. Silicone glue or contact cement works well in applying the strips. Before installing the strips, insert your board into the trunk and determine the amount of extra space. Use enough glue [or carpet thickness] to eliminate this play." ------------------------------------------ Article from eZine, "On The Wire" Eliminating Rudder or Dagger Board Hum By Gary Willcox This was written for aluminum blades. The J24 link for monohulls contained within this article is no longer working so I have included the article at the end of this post. ------------------------------------------ Tech Tip from Hobie Cat This is for molded plastic blades. The flatted trailing edge should apply to wood and fiberglass foils as well, but the next article by Bill Moore adds another perspective. ------------------------------------------ [Granted the J24 is a much larger boat than a Sunfish, but I think the principle still applies] Hummmmm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- by Geoff Moore - Shore Sails Ltd One of the strangest noises you will ever hear on a sailboat is a mysterious humming noise. Usually, it happens when the boat starts to plane or surf, but sometimes it happens even at moderate speeds. I must have been very young when I first heard it because I never questioned why it was there. It probably made sense to me in the same way an airplane, or a big truck made noises when they went fast. So why not sailboats. Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! It wasn't until a non sailing friend asked me what that noise was that I even gave it any thought. You would think that it takes energy to cause this vibration. That energy must be coming from somewhere. So wouldn't you think it is robbing you of speed? That was when I started asking questions. It amazed me how few people cared. If it is adding drag it isn't very obvious. I have been on some very fast boats that have had some very loud hums. Some people actually grow fond of this high frequency hum. Maybe it has some kind of hypnotic calming effect on certain individuals. I eventually received many different explanations why this occurs, the most common being that the noise is the result of turbulence produced by an unfair [uneven] centerboard, keel, or rudder. Another popular story is that the rudder vibrates as it strikes turbulence from the keel or centerboard. Other people will swear it is the slack in the rudder hardware. I have even heard so called experts say that it is caused by air trapped under the hull. I am sure there are some very smart "technical type" people who know exactly what is happening, but this is what makes sense to me. First, almost every underwater foil has a squared off trailing edge. Why square? Well, razor sharp edges are difficult to maintain and in the case of a capsize they could be down right dangerous. Round is out because the eggheads tell us that water releases better from a sharp angles. So that leaves us with square. Actually a perfectly square trailing edge has a better chance of vibrating than an unsquare trailing edge. Imagine the keel [or rudder or daggerboard] splitting one big drop of water into two little ones. If the keel is perfectly fair [smooth] they should both reach the trailing edge of the keel at exactly the same time. When they get there they both can't exit the keel together or there would be a void in the middle. Since "nature abhors a vacuum" one side has to pop over to the other side as it exits. Since the keel is symmetrical there is nothing to keep the water exiting from a consistent side, so the sides alternate. The resulting vibration is the mysterious hum!! At least that is the way I picture it. As evidence I note that the vibration never happens up wind...and if you file the trailing edge, or one corner of the trailing edge, so that the keel, or rudder, is slightly asymmetrical the hum will either be eliminated or greatly reduced. Good Luck Article found at www.j24class.org Tips and Tricks |
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Re: Sunfish Bible
Wayne Carney
Hi Ed,
Where can you find one?What Charles Neuman said...... plus this contact from the Sunfish Class Association web site. Here's the parent site address again: www.sunfishclass.org Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Mystery Boat Breakthrough
Wayne Carney
Ed,
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Wow, what a find.... good sleuthing. I'd love to have some scans of that brochure on the group web site if you can manage it. It might help someone in the future. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Sunfish Bible
Most Sunfish dealers should carry one. I ordered mine from the Corpus
Christi Sailing Center, because they advertised on the Sunfish Message Board (which you can get to from www.sunfishclass.org). Their site is at www.constant.com/sailing They are also very friendly and helpful. The Sunfish Bible talks about vibrating dagger boards. Ones on Ebay are expensive because the buyers don't know that it's back in print, so they think they are getting something they can't get elsewhere. Charles Neuman Long Island, NY On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Ed wrote: Where can you find one? I have checked Amazon.com and eBay but no--- |
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Mystery Boat Breakthrough
Ed
I just talked to the grandson of the person who manufactured my
boat. Seems it is a Gulf Coast 14 (GC14) made about 1971. The maker passed about 5 years ago but the company had stopped manufacturing them about 20 years ago. The grandson is going to look to see if he or his grandmother have a broschure I can have. Cool. I found the guy by calling a company called GCBoats I found while surfing the web. After a few e-mails, turns out there was a loose association between the companies. Thanks for everyones help. Cheers, Ed |
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Re: Rudder VIbration
Wayne Carney
Hi Dave,
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You sure can get vibration from the daggerboard. There are some things you can do to reduce this. The leading and trailing edge can be shaped to reduce turbulence. I'll try and find an article about this. BTW, the "racing" (plastic-composite) daggerboard reduces this phenomena considerably. The down side to these boards is that they are expensive. IMHO the composite board is worth it though.... it's longer and has a better design all around. The other thing you can do is to line the daggerboard trunk with indoor/outdoor carpet. I use pieces of a rubber-backed door mat ($1.99 at Target). I placed a 1 1/2" wide strip at the fore and aft end of the trunk and a couple of 2" wide strips along either side. The carpet thickness was chosen to hold the daggerboard snuggly and reduce vibration while still allowing positioning without too much extra effort. It also helps protect the board and trunk at the leading and trailing corners where grounding damage occurs. If you want a real workout, install a hiking strap and then do your darnedest to "sail it flat". You'll get 6-pack abs and the rocket-ride of your life in one package. See a book called, the Sunfish Bible" for details on both the hiking strap installation and the technique of going really really fast. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Rudder VIbration
David King
Hi,
I have the same vibration but only when pressing the boat realy hard,in my opinion the vibration is coming from the centre board as I can't feel any transmitted vibration in the tiller. I must confess that the vibration disapears just before a capsize (opps)on closer examination the reason for this is because I can sail with about a foot of centre board out of the water (I know not very efficient way to sail but you get a realy good work out just trying to keep it upright. may be this vibration is a design fault and they all do it. regards Dave |
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Re: Rudder VIbration
Wayne Carney
Hi again Ed,
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Take a look at the Laser (I think) and Hobie Cat sites. They also use a thin aluminum rudder blade and I have seen some discussion about just such a vibration. Try www.thebeachcats.com and look for the archives of a eZine called "On The Wire". That E-magazine had a tech tips section every month that addressed such things. And, yes I agree that the vibration is inefficient flutter that creates drag, but unless you are racing I wouldn't be too concerned about that aspect. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Re: Sail and Boom Transport
Wayne Carney
Hi Ed,
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I just took a look at your photos. My sail transport method is similar and I just roll the spars in the sail being careful not to crease my window. It would be too much to take off the shower curtain rings and undo the gooseneck. The thing I have that helps protect the rig is a breathable sail bag. Its made of uncoated nylon and holds the sail, spars and mast. Basically it's a long tube with a tie closure like a giant "stuff sack". That's quite a boat you have. It's definitely a Sunfish look-alike, but I can't identify the GC14 logo. It was very popular back in the '70's for all the boat manufacturers to make a Sunfish "clone" due to the extreme popularity of that singlehander design. Hopefully someone will remember it. In the meantime enjoy the sailing. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
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Rudder VIbration
Ed
I have a vibration from the rudder when I get the Fish up to speeds
usually obtainable on fairly windy days. I would suspect that the vibration may be an indication of drag robbing speed from the boat. Has anyone else experienced this? Perhaps it's unique to my rudder design? Are there any sources of information as to the optimal design and dimensions of the daggerboar? Thanks to anyone who responds, obviously by the number of posts I have made I have a few minutes on my hands right now (that'll change shortly!). ;)> Cheers, Ed |
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Sail and Boom Transport
Ed
In noticed some discussion about transporting the sail and booms with
the boat in some earlier postings. I have just posted some picture of my Fish in the Mystery Fish folder and it shows how I transport the sail. My only concern with my rig is that the sail is exposed and although I have been vigulent and seen no damage. Do you remove the sail from the booms before transport using your method? Do you remove the gooseneck from the lower boom? Cheers, Ed |
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