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Oops,

Diagrams with dimensions are already available on the net. They are
part of the ISCA Rules posted at the ISCA web site.

So, let me take my big foot out of my mouth.

Copies have been posted in the group FILES section for your
convenience.


Wayne


--- In sunfish_sailor@..., "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@f...>
wrote:

Hmmmmmm...., I wonder how much of a fuss
Vanguard would make over "sketches" if some
were to just appear on the Net.

Hi Wayne,

Bravo!

Bravo!

I've just gained new respect for cats.

That is a lot of information. All of it useful. Thank you very much
for the insight.

Adi

--- In sunfish_sailor@..., "Gail M. Turluck"
<turluck@c...> wrote:

Dear Adi,

If you're only going to be sailing recreationally and won't be

racing, then

any "knockoff" sail you buy will likely serve you long and strong.

I have

sails in my garage that are 2, 5, 10, 15 and 20 and more years old.

The

only thing that has truly worn a Sunfish sail to the point that they

won't

make a Sunfish go is their having been left on a deck in the sun all

summer,

stored someplace where mice/squirrels/etc. could get at them, or

other

horrendous storage incidents occurred. It takes years and years of

sailing

in big breezes (not likely in North America) to truly wear out a

Sunfish

sail to the point that it disintegrates. The first racing sail I

bought I

sailed hard and frequently for over nine years and it will still

make a boat

go for many years. It just didn't have the shape and became porous

(as all

sailcloth does) that new sails do ...

A recreational sail will easily give you 20 years of service if you

take

good care of it--keep it covered when on the road, store it where it

will be

kept dry, clean and unbothered by vermin, and loaded and tied in a

way when

you travel that vibration doesn't put holes in the material.

Occasionally

you may have an incident which causes a tear, but for a day-sailed

boat, any

sailmaker can make a quick patch and it will not materially affect

your

enjoyment. So, at that rate, if you buy a knockoff recreational

sail for,

say, $200, then for approximately $10 a year you will have sail

power. I

always recommend that you simply GO SAILING!

This points to your being able to go out and get a sail which is

made with

modern materials, as they will hold up well, get your boat together

and hit

the water. If you don't want to buy a commercially made sailbag,

44-45"

material (I recommend a heavy polyester, not canvas, as canvas molds

when it

gets wet), 16-1/3 feet long, folded over and sewn into a tube (with

a 5/8"

seam allowance) with one end closed makes an inexpensive sail cover

for on

the road. Tie it closed securely. If you can put in a sleeve and

feed the

rope through the sleeve at that second end of the bag and pull it

shut and

tie it shut that way, well, then you're a pro! Check the sale rack

at the

material store for heavy, ugly, polyester or other material that

won't hold

water, will dry quickly and won't rot. Doesn't matter what

color/pattern it

is so long as it will protect your sail, gaff, boom and mast. That

way,

too, you have one handy unit for tying to your rooftop or trailer

and for

storing wherever it is you store that part of your set up.

When you go to roll up your sail you can leave it on the boom and

gaff.

Pull all of the sail to the port side of the boat/boom/gaff.

Keeping the

boom and gaff tips together, pull the sail out taught at the end of

the sail

(makes sail in half). Start rolling from that point of the sail,

keeping it

flat, so you end up with a 3rd small tube--the boom, the gaff and

the sail.

Double check to make sure that the sail is not at all fouled on the
gooseneck to avoid holes being worn from sharp points on the

gooseneck while

stored in the sailbag. I leave my halyard through the tip of the

mast and

keep the mast in the gooseneck hole. I coil the halyard so it is

snug to

the tip of the mast to keep that mast in that position, just in case

the bag

opens on the road (keeps you from losing the mast, I know people it

has

happened to).

If you ever think you will end up racing, you would eventually end

up buying

a Racing sail (from a dealer, only way to get them, built by North

but only

available through dealer network). But, don't get the racing sail

now to

learn and practice with. An inexpensive copy will suit you just

fine.

There are quite a few sailmakers who make generic type lateen-rig

sails.

The colored recreational sails sold by Vanguard are not all cut to

the

racing sail pattern, either, though if they have the "racing

approved"

sticker on them from Vanguard/North, then they are legal. The

Vanguard rec

sails (and all their predecessors) are 7-12% smaller than the

Vanguard/North

racing sails. I can't say whether it's worth extra money to get an
"official" sail or not, though my guess would be that it is not.

This likely is more information than you ever wanted to know about

Sunfish

sails.

Get that boat together and go sailing! Good luck.

Sincerely,

Gail
~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~
Gail M. Turluck
ISCA Masters Coordinator
USSCA Masters Coordinator
~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Carney [mailto:wcarney@f...]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:31 PM
To: sunfish_sailor@...
Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Re: Sunfish parts


Adi,

Is the sail cloth quality better for
the official Sunfish sail (North Sails?)

In short, not necessarily. A good sailmaker will provide just as

good a

sail.

I believe there are a couple of qualities to look at - Material,

Cut, and

Workmanship. The official Sunfish sail specs are elusive. The

material is no

doubt polyester in the 3.6 oz to 4.0 oz range. That would be typical

for

small boat sails. The cut might be patented so unofficial sails may

have to

be slightly different. Look at the exact square footage for a quick
comparison. Workmanship will be a matter of inspection when you get

a sail.

From what I know about basic sail technology I believe the material

in the

"official" sail is most likely polyester. Nylon was a popular sail

material

before polyesters came on the scene and is still used today for jibs

and

inexpensive mainsails. However, Nylon looses it's stiffness quickly,

absorbs

water (gets heavy when wet), and also expands when wet (changing

it's

shape). It is lighter and more supple than polyester - why it's

popular for

jib material, but not desirable for mainsails any longer. I

recommend shying

away from nylon even if it makes the price a bit less.

"Dacron" is the DuPont trade name for a variety of polyester widely

used in

sails. Sailcloth is tightly woven and has a coating that functions

to help

it maintain fiber alignment and keep the surface uniform. Look for

these

qualities. Any good sail will be made with thread that has a UV

inhibitor

added at the time the polymer was formulated. It may also have an

additional

UV coating. Look for UV resistant materials. The length of the

sailmaker's

warranty can be one indicator for degree of UV protection as well as

the

workmanship.


Keep us posted on what you find,

Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: Aditya Garg [mailto:gaajar@y...]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:33 AM
To: sunfish_sailor@...
Subject: [sunfish_sailor] Re: Sunfish parts


Thanks for all the pointers guys. I have one more question: Is the
sail cloth quality better for the official Sunfish sail (North

Sails?)

as compared to the other vendors.

Thanks,
Adi

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I would like to invite everyone to visit the DATABASE section of the
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and add your favorite sailing spot to the HOME PORT data.

Thanks,

Wayne

"Can you digest any of the following: DXF, IGS, SolidWorks, ProE,
CAD-Key
I have an idle CMM ...
If this is all Greek (or Geek) maybe it would be better to just have
the ol' 2D diagrams available."

Hey, I'm a mechanical engineer! I've digested more DXF than peanut
butter sandwiches. If you can get it, that's great. If you think
Vanguard would make a fuss, don't worry about it - I'll scale up the
2D drawings. How thick are these boards? Would 0.75" material do
the trick?

Thanks for the history lesson. Sounds like minor improvements to an
historically great boat design.

-Mike


--- In sunfish_sailor@..., "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@f...>
wrote:

Hmmmmmm...., I wonder how much of a fuss Vanguard would make

over "sketches"

if some were to just appear on the Net.

Can you digest any of the following: DXF, IGS, SolidWorks, ProE,

CAD-Key

I have an idle CMM ...

If this is all Greek (or Geek) maybe it would be better to just

have the ol'

2D diagrams available.

[play "I Dream of Jeannie" music]

mmmmm mmmmmm let's see what pops up....



OBTW the answer to your original question/subject line is: 1971

Mike,

Strike that first response > OBTW the answer to your original
question/subject line is: 1971

It should probably be 1987 for the "new" hull design.


Here's a partial list of the changes I am aware of:
(some dates may be off - corrections and additions appreciated)

60's Wood hull to Fiberglass.
60's Wood Mast and spars to Aluminum.
1967 Sail shape changed to a fuller cut.

?? Tapered mast to straight.
?? Fore mainsheet block moved forward.
?? Eye bolt on boom replaced by endcap with eye lip.

1971-72 Rounded rudder and brass hardware changed to
"new style" tapered rudder and stainless steel hardware.
70's Tapered (Shadow) Daggerboard replaces round end board.
1972 Storage compartment added.

1980 Barrington (squared) style daggerboard replaces tapered Shadow
board.
1987 Rolled gunwales and larger cockpit.
?? Racing Sail option introduced
?? Plastic rudder cheeks replace cast aluminum cheeks.

1993 Foam core, urethane coated daggerboard (22% larger).
1996 No-loop bridle.

Hmmmmmm...., I wonder how much of a fuss Vanguard would make over "sketches"
if some were to just appear on the Net.

Can you digest any of the following: DXF, IGS, SolidWorks, ProE, CAD-Key

I have an idle CMM ...

If this is all Greek (or Geek) maybe it would be better to just have the ol'
2D diagrams available.

[play "I Dream of Jeannie" music]

mmmmm mmmmmm let's see what pops up....



OBTW the answer to your original question/subject line is: 1971

Yup - and he's still at it

Aahh, the humor of one Bill Mattson. That heat seeking missile story had me absolutely rolling on the floor the first time I read it! Hilarious.

John

From: "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@...>
Reply-To: sunfish_sailor@...
To: <sunfish_sailor@...>
Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Re: Newbie launching question
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:35:30 -0600

Hi Ed,

I'm a trailer jockey too..... I jockey the trailer right into a parking
spot, slide the Fish onto a dolly I call my "silent partner", and stroll to
the grass or beach at water's edge. I rig up at my leisure and shove off
(noting that I'd still be 10th in line at the ramp if I'd gone that route).
8^)


Ski boats have their place so long as they aren't attempting to capsize
sailboats for additional sport.

There ARE consequences for buzzing MY sailboats:



and




;^)

Wayne










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I hope to buy new hardware and make the actual rudder and dagger
board out of UHMW (plastic). Once I get the smaller parts (such as
the gudgeon bracket) I think I can use the actual measurements to
scale up the drawings that are on Vangarde's website. Of course, it
would be a lot easier if there were templates out there.

Anyone know how thick these boards are?

-Mike

--- In sunfish_sailor@..., "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@f...>
wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: fnhspartan [mailto:marquette_93@h...]
Subject: At what year did the "old style" Sunfish
become the "new style"?


And where can I find templates for making rudders and keel boards?

Do you have the hardware?

Hi Ed,

I'm a trailer jockey too..... I jockey the trailer right into a parking
spot, slide the Fish onto a dolly I call my "silent partner", and stroll to
the grass or beach at water's edge. I rig up at my leisure and shove off
(noting that I'd still be 10th in line at the ramp if I'd gone that route).
8^)


Ski boats have their place so long as they aren't attempting to capsize
sailboats for additional sport.

There ARE consequences for buzzing MY sailboats:



and




;^)

Wayne

Being a trailer jockey I have found that I can leave my "Fish-clone" fully
secured on the trailer and rig while on land.

Here is my process:

1. Stop just before entering the launch area.
2. install or check the drain plug.
3. Check the rudder assembly (which remains on the boat with a latch pin
which holds the rudder fully up during travel)
4. Remove and truck the sail and boom travel tube
5. Attach mast booms and sail
6. Rig Halyard and Sheet lines
7. Rig any other items being taken.
8. Hoist sail and check for damage or other things of interest (boat is
still attached to trailer and truck so wind will not flip)
9. Insert dagger just enough to hold in place but without extending below
hull
10. Lower sail with booms slightly to either port or starboard of dagger
corresponding to the opposite side I expect the dock to be on after launch
11. Use small bungee around booms, sail, and tiller to hold parallel to
center of boat
12. Drive into position to launch.
13. remove and truck the trailer straps
14. launch and tie to dock or shore (I usually find some kid or other person
willing to hold or watch the boat while I park the truck)
15. (after parking the truck) push away from the dock
16. Drop the dagger to appropriate depth
17. pull the rudder latch pin dropping the rudder
18. undo the boom / tiller bungee
19. raise the sail and wave goodbye

I have only had to beach the boat once for inconsiderate wave mongering
power boaters. (Note: I also have a ski boat) Most of the lakes I've
sailed either have well designed and positioned no wake zones or are no
power boats allowed.

Cheers,

Ed ;q}

Howard,

IMHO, it's still a whole lot easier to raise sail and check that all is
ready to go while on a beach, but I'm glad to hear that someone is thinking
of us small boat sailors anyway.

Re: Daggerboards

I put carpeting in my daggerboard slot. It holds the board anywhere I want
it, the board is still easy enough to slide, there's no messing with
bungees, and it helps prevent damage to the board/trunk in the event of
grounding.


Wayne

At Hueston Woods (OH), the docks work very well for
small boats, so well that only rarely do you see
anyone using the dinghy beach for launching - even
though the beach is only a matter of a hundred yards
or so from the normal position of the committee boat
(as opposed to around 1/2 mile). This is pretty
clearly an exceptional ramp/dock arrangement.

When using wooden daggerboards, I've had some success
in tying a bowline knot in the db rope, and hooking it
to a bungee which in turn goes around the mast. The
knot can be placed where needed to maintain tension,
and the bungee can have one or both ends in the loop
depending on what fits. With the plastic board I've
done this as well, then run a peice of (good)
kitestring to the db retainer clip (where the rope
would normally go). Inefficient, but it works.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

I fully agree that launching a Sunfish at a ramp is 100% where you don't
want to be. Very occasionally the docks at them are constructed to be
protective to all boats, but that is rare. Anyone would do better to put
their Sunfish in the water, immediately paddle (even laying on your stomach
and doing it with your hands) someplace where you could pull up onto land
and rig the rest after moving your car. Let the hysterical get angry and
blow their horns that they're having to wait. You don't have to damage your
boat to get them into the ramp two minutes faster. If they're that
impatient, maybe they'll come protect your boat while you move!

Whenever possible, it is easier to pull your sail up on shore. Then you can
check to make sure that the halyard is where you want it on the gaff, that
the halyard is all the way up and won't stretch, that the mainsheet is
clear, etc. You just have to position your hull so the bow is close to
into-the-wind. If it's bow out that's super convenient, but sometimes you
may have the transom to the water. Whether launching off sand or off grass,
it's fairly simple to pull the boat out.

I have 2 36" bungee cords (the kinds with hooks on them) that I have made
into a daggerboard holder. In one of them I have put 4 overhand knots, not
near the center (to tighten the cord and provide enough resistance). In the
center of each of the cords I have wrapped electrical tape to protect the
cords from chafe. I hook the knotted cord into the wound part of the other
cords' hooks. At this point the device looks ugly. Keep going. I put a
little bit of electrical tape over the ends of the splash rail (protection)
and hook each of the un-knotted bungee cord onto the splash rail. Stretched
out now, it lays over the daggerboard trunk. Pull back on the knotted cord,
slide your daggerboard into place. When the tension on the cords is right,
the daggerboard stays in place vertically, no matter how high or low you
have it! Adjust your tension with more/fewer knots. This is the best $2
I've ever spent. Is also a perfect daggerboard retainer so you don't lose
it in a capsize.

This lets you set your daggerboard for when you are ready to launch, too.
Now you can get your boat into the water, position it so it is on the easier
tack for getting away from shore, slide the board into the slot with minimal
projection from the bottom of the hull (even mark the board ...). Often
I'll push off at this point, climbing onto the back deck over the tiller.
Rarely, you can kick the rudder down before you jump on. Most of the time,
right after you push out you need to put the daggerboard down a little more
and immediately flip the rudder down. Then you can sheet in, get that
little bit more clearance from shore, and finish getting set up and enjoy
your sail.

--G

~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~
Gail M. Turluck
~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~/)~~~~/)~

Wayne,
Yes, I've followed thebeachcat group for a few years now. I love sailing cats but the set up and launch are the pits. When you sail mostly lakes and rivers it can be a real hassle to get out on the water. I trailer my Hobie from Ky to Destin Florida every year at least once for the family vacation. You can't beat it in the Gulf of Mexico. It's quite a thrill when you sail through a dolphin pod or schools of flying fish. Last year I had a superb day of sailing in just the right conditions to surf the front of some large rollers. Talk about smooth sailing and hauling #$ss! I hope to piggyback the sunfish on top of the Hobie in August. The Choctawhatchee Bay would make for some good Sunfish sailing, and if conditions are mild, it might be decent on the gulf as well. My main objective though, is to get my 9 year old son and 8 year old daughter into sailing with the Sunfish.

John

From: "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@...>
Reply-To: sunfish_sailor@...
To: <sunfish_sailor@...>
Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Sunfish upgrades...
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:51:34 -0600

John,

I have a cam cleat mounted on the vertical portion of the cockpit lip where
the old hook once was. I use it on calm days or when I'm daring. It requires
leaning inboard which is a deterrent to using it on windy days when I
shouldn't.

The most common cleat system I've seen is "V" cleats mounted port and
starboard as far out as the cockpit runs under the deck. Personally, I just
use the ratchet friction which works well for me.

H18 eh? You on thebeachcat group?


Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: John Campbell [mailto:jkcjohn@...]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:08 PM
To: sunfish_sailor@...
Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Sunfish upgrades...


Yes, but after further consideration the hexaratchet is probably
the way to
go.
I'm used to larger boats where no cleat would wear you out after a

little

while. When it's howlin', I keep my Hobie 18 main sheet loose
and in hand,
but on a forgiving day I run with it cleated most of the time.

John C

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John,

I have a cam cleat mounted on the vertical portion of the cockpit lip where
the old hook once was. I use it on calm days or when I'm daring. It requires
leaning inboard which is a deterrent to using it on windy days when I
shouldn't.

The most common cleat system I've seen is "V" cleats mounted port and
starboard as far out as the cockpit runs under the deck. Personally, I just
use the ratchet friction which works well for me.

H18 eh? You on thebeachcat group?


Wayne

Yes, but after further consideration the hexaratchet is probably the way to go.
I'm used to larger boats where no cleat would wear you out after a little while. When it's howlin', I keep my Hobie 18 main sheet loose and in hand, but on a forgiving day I run with it cleated most of the time.

John C

From: "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@...>
Reply-To: sunfish_sailor@...
To: <sunfish_sailor@...>
Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Sunfish upgrades...
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:31:39 -0600

John,

Is this the picture?



The Harken Little Hexaratchet can be an option too.


I use one attached on the deck.

Be careful using a cam cleat. They promote a lot of swimming... 8^)


Wayne

-----Original Message-----
From: John C [mailto:jkcjohn@...]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 8:24 AM
To: sunfish_sailor@...
Subject: [sunfish_sailor] Sunfish upgrades...


I am still looking for a late style rudder set to go with my '76
Sunfish.

In the mean time I want to upgrade the main sheet handling system.
Mine has the little 'hook' sort of cleat with no real cleating
capability. I think the new fish have a swivel cam cleat with bulls
eye fairlead from the factory, correct? If I get one, does it
connect in the same location as the original cleat, or does it need
to be installed to the horizontal deck section above the original
location? I have seen a photo of one, but forget where.

John C

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Charles,

I had my boat pinned under a dock by the wake of a big $*&%#@ motorboat.
Docks are just the last place you want to launch a beach boat from. I know
there isn't always an option.

I will shanghi helpers to carry, or I will dolly my boat into a beach
whenever possible. At some places there is an area for sailboards where the
"authorities that be" will let you launch from.

Anything but a dock in my book.

This doesn't answer your question, but avoidance may be a better solution.



just a thought.... You could buy a "Swim Noodle" and
cut it into sections.


I don't know how you'd attach it though.

Maybe like this:




8^)


Wayne

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Wayne Carney wrote:

... The boat can now be launched and tied to the
dock while you park the trailer etc.

I chipped some gelcoat once when the boat banged against some hardware on
the dock.

Any ideas on a makeshift fender for a Sunfish? The fenders in marine
stores seem too big, and I don't feel like putting on a rub-rail.

Charles