Keyboard Shortcuts
ctrl + shift + ? :
Show all keyboard shortcuts
ctrl + g :
Navigate to a group
ctrl + shift + f :
Find
ctrl + / :
Quick actions
esc to dismiss
Likes
- SunfishSailor
- Messages
Search
|
Re: water in Sunfish
Wayne Carney
Hi Judy,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sounds like you have a real problem there. Let's start with the basics - Have you opened the drain plug and tried letting the water out? Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
water in Sunfish
Judy Maier
I have enjoyed sailing a sunfish for many years but can no longer even pick up the boat to put in the water. The boat itself if full of water that is in the hull and will not come out. Some had suggested how to get the water out and fix it so water no longer comes in but I lost the information. Can anyone help me.
Thank youGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- Most competitive sailors have installed an adjustable Gooseneck. The lower spar(boom) is back for light air and forward for heavy air. Exactly where you put it can be found in the tuning guides and is also a matter of crew(you) weight and your preference based on your experience. see: Also, it's a good practice to tie a stopper knot in the end of your main sheet so you don't accidentally loose it. A double overhand or figure eight knot are the usual ones used. 2. The gooseneck is attached between the 2nd and 3rd sail ringsSee comment above... 3. I have been unable to see any good picture of how the upper boom isThe halyard is tied to the upper spar using a clove hitch. By the book it is attached between the 9th and 10th sail clip (counting up from the bottom). Recreational sailors rig this way for head room. As for sailing adjustment, the lighter the wind the higher the sail, the stronger the wind the lower. I don't know how much of this will apply to your boat, but here's the Sunfish setup manual: 4. Is the attach point on the stern for the sheet line static orSunfish use both free running traveler style and the fixed center loop bridle. You can even use a piece of line on recreational boats. I've had all three and added a micro-block traveler too. For classes I have rigged a fiddle block traveler and an extra turn on the sheet so there's even more mechanical advantage when teaching sailing to pee wee's. Presently I use the coated cable bridle without the center loop and a small ss carabineer at the end of the main sheet. It runs just fine this way. All those methods work well. If you get really competitive you may want to move to a free running traveler. Wayne |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Ed Conley
Thanks for the sketch, it confirmed my thought that the leading edge should
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
be rounded not pointed. I have not yet located the Sunfish Bible to purchase it so I hope your game for a few more questions. I have been sailing with the boat as I purchased it, i.e. I have not moved any of the rigging. However, as you and others have been helping me I have been paying particular attention to some of the pictures and diagrams and noticed some differences between my set up and others. I would appreciate your comments on my current set up that I list below: 1. The swivel block is located between the last two sail rings on my lower boom . In many diagrams and pictures the location on other "Fish" seem to be somewhere between the 4th and 5th sail rings. I think this causes me to have a long sheet line and more difficulty re-rigging while on the water should I loose control of it (yes I've done it). 2. The gooseneck is attached between the 2nd and 3rd sail rings on my lower boom. I notice that this differs form references where it appears between the 1st and 2nd ring but closer to the 2nd. Boy I sure could use the extra head room under the boom when I tack! 3. I have been unable to see any good picture of how the upper boom is attached to the (forgive me I don't know the proper term) halyard(?) line that hoists the sail. Particularly between which sail rings. 4. Is the attach point on the stern for the sheet line static or is it on a block traveler? On my "Fish-clone" I have a braided steel line attached both port and starboard with a crimped loop in the center to attach the sheet line, therefore, no block. Thanks for letting me bug you! Ed -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Carney [mailto:wcarney@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:02 AM To: sunfish_sailor@... Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? Ed, I put a daggerboard sketch in the group FILES section. This board is from another boat group I belong to and will only serve as a reference, but you could probably scale it down to work with your boat. Wayne > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Conley [mailto:conley49@...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:37 AM > To: sunfish_sailor@... > Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? > > > Thanks Howard and Wayne for your explanations and reference material. > > I had observed that my "Fish-clone" was much slower when in a > tack or reach > course where the gooseneck orientation allows the sail to lie against the > mast thus changing the sail shape. In one lake in particular I could half > my time spent (seems like it anyway) tacking to the larger part > of the lake > just by planning ahead of time which side of the boat the > gooseneck would be > facing. > > One of the first observations about my "Fish-clone" shortly after purchase > was that the daggerboard has been repeatedly damaged and > refinished to sand > out smashed spots and, as repair allowed, the leading edge of the > daggerboard was finished to a sharp edge or point along the plane of the > board. With the daggerboard involved so much in the potential lift of the > system its shape must be very important. Wouldn't a rounded blunt leading > edge allow for better off axis flow without producing turbulent > drag? Again > with no local real or racing "Fish" to view I am operating in the blind. > Dose anyone have a plan with dimensions on it for a good > daggerboard design? > I am planning a trek to the Vanguard dealer in Oakland sometime in the > future but would like any words of wisdom form other "Fish" owners. > > Thanks again! > > Ed Yahoo! Groups Sponsor If you do not wish to belong to Sunfish_sailor, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... Please do not send unsubscribe requests directly to the group. USEFUL ADDRESSES Post message: sunfish_sailor@... Subscribe: sunfish_sailor-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... URL to egroups page: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hmmmmmm...., the Sunfish sail is rigged on the port side of the mast - always. What slight differences there are between port tack and starboard tack are then equal between boats. There's lots of sail adjustments to tuning the rig as you will discover when you get your copy of the Sunfish Bible. I think the actual difference in speed is minor, but I'd have to (A) be absolutely sure wind and water conditions were the same for tests on both tacks and (B) need a GPS to tell the true speed of each. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I put a daggerboard sketch in the group FILES section. This board is from another boat group I belong to and will only serve as a reference, but you could probably scale it down to work with your boat. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Ed Conley
Thanks Howard and Wayne for your explanations and reference material.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I had observed that my "Fish-clone" was much slower when in a tack or reach course where the gooseneck orientation allows the sail to lie against the mast thus changing the sail shape. In one lake in particular I could half my time spent (seems like it anyway) tacking to the larger part of the lake just by planning ahead of time which side of the boat the gooseneck would be facing. One of the first observations about my "Fish-clone" shortly after purchase was that the daggerboard has been repeatedly damaged and refinished to sand out smashed spots and, as repair allowed, the leading edge of the daggerboard was finished to a sharp edge or point along the plane of the board. With the daggerboard involved so much in the potential lift of the system its shape must be very important. Wouldn't a rounded blunt leading edge allow for better off axis flow without producing turbulent drag? Again with no local real or racing "Fish" to view I am operating in the blind. Dose anyone have a plan with dimensions on it for a good daggerboard design? I am planning a trek to the Vanguard dealer in Oakland sometime in the future but would like any words of wisdom form other "Fish" owners. Thanks again! Ed -----Original Message-----
From: Howard Bishop [mailto:bishop2398@...] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:27 PM To: sunfish_sailor@... Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? Don't know if this helps or not, but if all else fails, think of the last time you flew a kite. Remember how much harder it pulled on the string when it was nearly overhead compared to when you first launched it (straight downwind)? It's something like that. A slightly more technical attempt at an explanation follows. The thing that makes sailing anything other than straight downwind is the dramatic shear, both in terms of velocity and viscousity, of the two fluids involved (air and water). There are a couple of other useful things to remember: 1) in other than a dead run, the centerboard produces useful lift orthoganal to the direction of the boat's travel (lift in other directions may be produced, but it is un-useful and should be counted as drag). 2) the dynamics of a sail while reaching or pointing are incredibly different than that of one running. It is the difference between a gyrocopter and a helicopter, or between a parachute and a hang glider. with those thoughts in mind, we go on: When running straight downwind, the theoretical maximum speed is equal to wind speed. period. When bearing off slightly, we could, in theory, retain the downwind vector, but add the new, slightly off-wind vector. Depending on the amount of wind, the efficiency of the sail, and the amount of lift generated by the daggerboard, there is some theoretically optimal angle at which to sail. Bear in mind, that as one speeds up on a beat or reach one introduces yet a third vector which may in fact *increase* the amount of lift the sail produces. At some point the lift vectors generated by the sail and board (note: these vectors will differ in both magnitude and direction- the difference their lateral components is your leeway) will achieve some stasis with the drag vectors of the system (both hydro and aero dynamic)and the theoretical max speed is acheived. Howard __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT If you do not wish to belong to Sunfish_sailor, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... Please do not send unsubscribe requests directly to the group. USEFUL ADDRESSES Post message: sunfish_sailor@... Subscribe: sunfish_sailor-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... URL to egroups page: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
|
Re: rudder
Malcolm Dickinson
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Yes, you certainly will want to devise a way to keep the rudder from floating up. The closer to vertical the rudder is, the less helm you will have and the faster you will go. Handling and speed are both improved by having the rudder closer to vertical. At several North American championships, top sailors have been caught by the class measurer with a rudder that was just 1 or 2 degrees closer to vertical than was allowed. It makes a difference! Original message: --------------- From: "Ed" <conley49@...> |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Howard Bishop
Don't know if this helps or not, but if all else
fails, think of the last time you flew a kite. Remember how much harder it pulled on the string when it was nearly overhead compared to when you first launched it (straight downwind)? It's something like that. A slightly more technical attempt at an explanation follows. The thing that makes sailing anything other than straight downwind is the dramatic shear, both in terms of velocity and viscousity, of the two fluids involved (air and water). There are a couple of other useful things to remember: 1) in other than a dead run, the centerboard produces useful lift orthoganal to the direction of the boat's travel (lift in other directions may be produced, but it is un-useful and should be counted as drag). 2) the dynamics of a sail while reaching or pointing are incredibly different than that of one running. It is the difference between a gyrocopter and a helicopter, or between a parachute and a hang glider. with those thoughts in mind, we go on: When running straight downwind, the theoretical maximum speed is equal to wind speed. period. When bearing off slightly, we could, in theory, retain the downwind vector, but add the new, slightly off-wind vector. Depending on the amount of wind, the efficiency of the sail, and the amount of lift generated by the daggerboard, there is some theoretically optimal angle at which to sail. Bear in mind, that as one speeds up on a beat or reach one introduces yet a third vector which may in fact *increase* the amount of lift the sail produces. At some point the lift vectors generated by the sail and board (note: these vectors will differ in both magnitude and direction- the difference their lateral components is your leeway) will achieve some stasis with the drag vectors of the system (both hydro and aero dynamic)and the theoretical max speed is acheived. Howard __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The answer to your question will involve going into the physics of the sail as an airfoil(wing) and the dynamics involved with wind and water. Rather than attempting to rewrite what has already been written by people far more competent than myself, I suggest that you take a look at a reference about sailing fundamentals. A couple of books that I have found helpful are: Bob Bond, "The Handbook of Sailing", Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. Steve Colgate, "Colgate's Basic Sailing", Offshore Shore Sailing School Peter Isler, Vince Mattera, "Let's Go Sailing", William Morrow & Co To get a visual on speed as a function of angle to the wind, play with the interactive, "sailing simulator" here: Here's a crash course on the physics of sailing: This site has several articles on sail dynamics: For fun, check out these boats. Taking the concepts out on the water and experiencing the effects will teach you a tremendous amount. Seat-of-the-pants learning is good, but learning with other sailors can help advance your skill level at a much quicker pace. I encourage you to join a sailing class this summer. Look around your area for a sailing club or college that offers sailing classes and join in. I'll leave you with this thought.... a sailboat is actually pulled rather than pushed by the wind. Happy Sailing, Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Ed Conley
Wayne, Re: Broad Reach. I was reviewing the manual at the link you
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
provided, i.e. points of sail, and it mentioned that a sailboat is the fastest when it is in a broad reach. This would seem to be a little counter intuitive. With the sail out to about the 3/4 position and the boat in a broad reach the sail is almost angled to the wind the same as when running. Why would the boat speed be greater at this point? Ed -----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Carney [mailto:wcarney@...] Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 4:05 PM To: sunfish_sailor@... Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? Ed, Right you are. A Hiking strap is a piece of webbing (seatbelt) that attaches to the floor or near the floor of the boat's cockpit. It provides a place to hook your feet so you can hang your body over the edge of the boat and not slip overboard. Take a look in the group PHOTOS section - in the member's folder - B¨¹lent Art¨¹z posted a photo that illustrates how you can lean your whole torso overboard (hike out). As you deduced, Running is sailing the boat with the wind at your back. Have a look at this diagram: I have another boat with the same spring arrangement you have. Either way works - sort of. On my Sunfish the carpet does replace the spring friction and allows me to set the daggerboard at any height I choose - very convenient for approaching the beach - and something the board mounted spring won't let me do at all. I have marked the board so I know when I have 1' and 6" extending below the hull. Wayne > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Conley [mailto:conley49@...] > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:18 AM > To: sunfish_sailor@... > Subject: RE: [sunfish_sailor] Running Flat? > > > My sailing experience is limited to about 100hrs in my "Fish-clone" and > 100hrs as a mate on a 35' Pearson. Perhaps I do not fully understand the > use of the Hiking strap on the "Fish". Is it being used as an aid in > allowing you to lean overboard more to balance the boat? If this > is so.... > How do you typically hold onto the strap? > > Is running before the wind the same as having the wind at your back and > sailing in the same direction? > > On my "Fish-clone" the spring clip is mounted on the deck and > down into the > trunk hole about 3 inches. Are you suggesting that the carpet is a > replacement for this spring? > > Thanks Wayne for your help. > > Ed Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT If you do not wish to belong to Sunfish_sailor, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... Please do not send unsubscribe requests directly to the group. USEFUL ADDRESSES Post message: sunfish_sailor@... Subscribe: sunfish_sailor-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: sunfish_sailor-unsubscribe@... URL to egroups page: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
|
Re: Rudder? Rudder?
Wayne Carney
Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Looking at the photo of your rudder I cannot tell exactly what keeps the rudder in the down position.... friction of the pivot screw tightness or simply gravity? The rudders like yours that I am aware of have a spring or bungee cord that is mounted off center in a manner that keeps the blade down while under way and up when .... well, it's up. Just like you are seeing in the Sunfish parts diagrams. Take a look at the photo called "Rudder Spring" that I posted in your folder. I don't know how the "rake" is determined. I do know that a 0 degree position is easiest to steer and the difficulty (tiller pressure) raises with the angle. The angle probably should not change while you are in motion. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Howdy Ed,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Now that I have gone back to look again, (slapping my forehead) I see the hiking strap in your pictures. New Sunfish have a daggerboard that extends below the hull about 31". The older wood boards were slightly shorter, but I can't say exactly by how much. I have one around somewhere, if I find it I'll measure it and see. That's a daring move, to sail between trees. I hit a submerged log once and it capsized me instantly, throwing me out over the bow. I don't want to repeat that experience. You can lift the board when running because it isn't functioning as lateral resistance at that point. If you plan on competing you can experiment with just how much board is needed under different wind conditions and angles to the wind. I would consider this "very fine tuning" and to gain any benefit it takes lots of practice. Remember, the less board there is the harder it is to point into the wind. The only time I raise the board when recreational sailing is when I come into a beach. I ease the board up as I approach on a reach so I can still maintain my course and not ground the board. At the 6" mark on my board I still have a little lateral resistance and the bow usually hits the beach without the board digging in. When I come in on a run I usually have the board up already and as I get within 20' or so I turn toward the wind so I'm 90 degrees to the beach. I then let the boat side-slip to shore. That keeps the sail from trying to wrap around the mast when the hull goes aground under that condition. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Rudder? Rudder?
Ed
Since I am picking brains here.... On my "Fish-clone" the rudder is
pinned so that if I should hit something it would rise up and not allow damage. This pin also has the effect of allowing the rudder to rise partially out of the water while sailing at faster speeds. I noticed that the Vanguard Sunfish parts locator has a detail of the rudder showing a tension spring. I would guess that this provides fource that keeps the rudder in the water at speed but allow movement should the rudder imapact something. Alaso this same diagram shows the rudder to have about a 30 degree rake. My "Fish-clone" has 0 degree rake at rest but I would guess about 45 to 60 under fast sail. With no local "Fish" to compare notes with I have no framework to judge my obsevations. Do you have any idea if I should be seeking to limit my under sail rake of my rudder? Thanks, Ed |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Ed
Hi Wayne, I have a functional if not juryriggerd hiking strap in
my "Fish-clone". I think I was confusing the sailor-speak for hiking strap for something used to manipulate the Daggerboard or provide additional methods of tranfering weight distribution outside the cockpit. Thanks for another great web refererence. My Daggerboard has a maximum extension beyond the hull of 2ft. Is this typical for real "Fish". I have only pulled up the Daggerboard up when I have inadvertantly run aground at the shallow end of a lake or when sailing between trees. Submerged limbs can scare the heck out of you when you catch your daggerboard on one. DO I understand correctly that while running with the wind the daggerboard can be lifted to reduce drag? Are there any other under-sail situations where modulating the dagerboard depth would be advantagous? Thanks for the help. Ed --- In sunfish_sailor@..., "Wayne Carney" <wcarney@f...> wrote: Ed,attaches to the floor or near the floor of the boat's cockpit. It provides aplace to hook your feet so you can hang your body over the edge of the boatand not slip overboard. Take a look in the group PHOTOS section - in themember's folder - B¨¹lent Art¨¹z posted a photo that illustrates how you canlean your whole torso overboard (hike out).back. Have a look at this diagram:Either way works - sort of. On my Sunfish the carpet does replace the springfriction and allows me to set the daggerboard at any height I choose - verymounted spring won't let me do at all. I have marked the board so I knowwhen I have 1' and 6" extending below the hull.clone" and understand the100hrs as a mate on a 35' Pearson. Perhaps I do not fully aid inuse of the Hiking strap on the "Fish". Is it being used as an back andallowing you to lean overboard more to balance the boat? If this asailing in the same direction? replacement for this spring? |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Wayne Carney
Hi Charles,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
LOL.... Yeah, and add to that a rudder that keeps popping loose - at least in the old days. Duct tape sounds good to me. Wayne -----Original Message----- |
|
Re: Running Flat?
Speaking of those daggerboard springs, didya ever rent an old Sunfish at a
beach or a vacation place? First of all, they never have tiller extensions. But that's the least of the problems. Often the springs on the daggerboard are either gone or they don't work. So just when you get going, the daggerboard decides to start rising up, so then you've got one foot on the board to keep it down, and you feel like you're playing Twister. One time I took the end of the halyard and jammed it in the daggerboard trunk along with the board, and that kept the board down for a while. Any other ideas you've come across? Maybe I should just bring duct tape with me. Charles On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Ed Conley wrote: My sailing experience is limited to about 100hrs in my "Fish-clone" andon the-- |
to navigate to use esc to dismiss