This is the business on site at the old depot
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New location of the Sacramento Northern depot in Chico
Here is the Google Maps link to the new location
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44 tonner O-Scale; amazing SN layout
I saw this 44 tonner?online. I was unaware they had one in O-Scale.?
Also for O-Scale enthusiasts, I never heard what happened with the?incredible?Sacramento Northern?O scale?layout in Yuba City that a person?was trying to sell.?
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There is a Sacramento Northern pizza place with a micro brewery, built on the site of the old mulberry shops in Chico. He has a layout with a scratchbuilt Mulberry shops. It¡¯s decorated with Sacramento Northern trolley stuff.
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Thank you for these insights Garth! Loved the bit about the pantograph. I hear the Key invented the device. El El vie, dic 20, 2024 a la(s) 3:27?a.m., Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via <mallardlodge1000= [email protected]> escribi¨®:
Friends,
While wandering through Wikimedia, I chanced upon two Bill Larkins photos of SN 405 tied up at the Oroville freight station. They were too good not to share, as the SN Oroville operations were not often photographed. (Photos 1 & 2)
The Oroville Branch was originally connected to the mainline at Tres Vias near Chico. On 10 December 10 1937 as the Feather River rose in flood. The SN bridge west of Oroville was partly washed away. The bridge was deemed too expensive to replace, so track on the river's west side was cut back to Thermalito. The section between the river and Oroville was abandoned. The industries in Oroville were reached via the WP interchange, and an SN freight motor (or two) was stationed in the city. The work probably fell to flat motor 403, later aided by 402 (see the attached 1940 Jenkins Photo from my collection).
During the Depression years, most of the?flat motors had been stored out-of-service at Chico. When WWII began, these machines were returned to service mainly as switchers to free more powerful motors for heavier trains. Motors 404 and 405 were sent to Oakland in 1942 and 1943 respectively where they worked for the allied Oakland Terminal Railway under lease. They were equipped with monsterous?Key System pantographs mounted directly on their roofs instead of the SN's little towers. Now they could reach the Key Route's wire, but squeeze under the infamous SP bridge near Emeryville. Eventually the flat motors were replaced by Baldwin steeple cabs 440 and 442, which explains why all these 600-volt machines were so often photographed in Oakland.
Upon return north, 405 became the regular Oroville motor, retaining its Key pantograph for some reason. It was the last of the flat motors in service, and the only one to receive orange "scare stripes" (photo 4, from my collection). Electric service at Oroville ended on 14 April 1954. Motor 405 was then scrapped, though I was told the body survived as a farm shed near?Chico for many years.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ??
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Friends,
While wandering through Wikimedia, I chanced upon two Bill Larkins photos of SN 405 tied up at the Oroville freight station. They were too good not to share, as the SN Oroville operations were not often photographed. (Photos 1 & 2)
The Oroville Branch was originally connected to the mainline at Tres Vias near Chico. On 10 December 10 1937 as the Feather River rose in flood. The SN bridge west of Oroville was partly washed away. The bridge was deemed too expensive to replace, so track on the river's west side was cut back to Thermalito. The section between the river and Oroville was abandoned. The industries in Oroville were reached via the WP interchange, and an SN freight motor (or two) was stationed in the city. The work probably fell to flat motor 403, later aided by 402 (see the attached 1940 Jenkins Photo from my collection).
During the Depression years, most of the?flat motors had been stored out-of-service at Chico. When WWII began, these machines were returned to service mainly as switchers to free more powerful motors for heavier trains. Motors 404 and 405 were sent to Oakland in 1942 and 1943 respectively where they worked for the allied Oakland Terminal Railway under lease. They were equipped with monsterous?Key System pantographs mounted directly on their roofs instead of the SN's little towers. Now they could reach the Key Route's wire, but squeeze under the infamous SP bridge near Emeryville. Eventually the flat motors were replaced by Baldwin steeple cabs 440 and 442, which explains why all these 600-volt machines were so often photographed in Oakland.
Upon return north, 405 became the regular Oroville motor, retaining its Key pantograph for some reason. It was the last of the flat motors in service, and the only one to receive orange "scare stripes" (photo 4, from my collection). Electric service at Oroville ended on 14 April 1954. Motor 405 was then scrapped, though I was told the body survived as a farm shed near?Chico for many years.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ??
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Hello, There are a lot of custom, scratchbuilt, and kitashed vehicles and buildings for a layout I have done while I have been stuck in places over the years on business. That part is mostly?done now as my eyes age except for one?depot and a warehouse.?I dont know if I will ever connect to other NTRAK or NCAT modules in my life. But in case I move, and because I don't?have enough time at home to model all of it?with family, I would like to find and follow the NCAT standard most likely. No need to open the link if you are familiar.?
The standards?web link at the bottom?didn't open. I cant remember why I cant terminate track ends at the edge of the module, adjustment I guess. The reason I ask,?the scenery would be plastered between my modules that go around a room hopefully. Only if I moved or exhibited would I cut the scenery to separate the modules. The mobility is mostly for my own life. So many railroads are destroyed when a house is sold or someone passes away.?Building in modules I can take a blank module with me on business trips and add scenery while away from home one by one. Sometimes I have wondered why the edge of different modules doesn¡¯t have a standard for grass colors that could be blended in at the end?so all of the modules would look like they go together instead Frankenlayouts. What ready-made?model?trolley poles go best with the Sacramento Northern? We?should all suggest to Kato?or Tomytec?that they offer a?trolley pole similar to early North American Prototypes. They might do it and it would make it so much easier. Except for one area I can play make-believe like there is a third rail with the SN.?
The tables should be portable with folding leg hardware like this:
?
They are easy to install and make moving a cinch. My thought is to start with no working?overhead wire because I save tedious stuff for last, or maybe never. Can NCAT connect to NTRAK? FreeMoN wanted code 50 track?which means more derailing to me and once you spray-mist?Code 80 with brown, black and grey it looks pretty good after ?sanding the area to conduct electricity and ballasting.?
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7mi9d2tv0&feature=shared
Here is another way to power a box car that goes behind the GE steeple cab?that Sacramento northern had
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Re: [WPList] Express Service LCL freigjt
Nick and friends,
Long story. About a year before he passed away, Jeff Moreau gave me a packet of papers he said he didn't understand. They are carbon copies of correspondence setting up the WP/SN Merchandise Service. I have always wanted to write this story for the WPHS HEADLIGHT, but have almost no information on when the service?ended, and no photos of the express boxcars on a passenger train (I have ?a single shot in my collection of one in an SN freight, see attached). So here is a summary:
During the mid-to-late 1930s the WP was concerned about the amount of freight house business they were losing to truckers operating over newly paved state highways, both licensed operators and pirates. The cream of this business was in merchandise moving from manufacturers and large wholesalers in the San Francisco/Oakland area to retail merchants in Sacramento and the smaller upper valley cities. So the railroad kicked around various schemes to counter the loss.?
One idea was to use WP baggage cars cut into and out of passenger trains to speed up deliveries. One important consideration was moving the 60-foot cars around tight curves at the SN's downtown freight stations?(150-foot radius in Sacramento). During a test in mid-1937 a WP baggage car was switched into the SN's 2nd & M Street freight house, or at least they tried. The car derailed on the curve. Then the WP officers realized that they only owned 20 baggage cars, and nearly all were needed for regular service. So tight curves and a lack of equipment scuppered the project temporarily.
By early 1941 the WP and SN had worked out an alternate plan and was ready to go. Fifteen of their recently-purchased 20001-series steel boxcars were chosen at random and renumbered with?"2" added at the front of their numbers. They were given steam and signal lines, upgraded steel wheels, and painted Pullman green with yellow lettering and a snappy yellow stripe along the floor line. The cars were 220071, 220084, 22085, 220086, 220089, 220092, 220105, 220106, 220108, 220136, 220146, 220149, 220159, 220176 and 220194. Service began on Friday 28 March 1941. Only 12 cars were needed to keep the service moving, but three extras were on hand in case of repairs, missed return connections, and perhaps optimistically heavy Christmas service. The latter did not come to pass and lean times?were soon upon the whole country. The cars were homed in San Francisco.
Merchants who wanted the expedited service had to wire or call in their orders so the suppliers could deliver the goods by the close of their business day to the WP freight station. Then four cars were pulled and given priority loading. Next they were moved across the bay on the first available car float to the Oakland freight house for topping up. The next morning the four cars were cut into Train 12, the eastbound Feather River Express, behind the locomotive for a noon departure.
The first boxcar was dropped at the WP station in Sacramento where a switcher would hustle it over to SN tracks for unloading at the 2nd and M Street freight house. Any shipments for Woodland would be delivered by truck the next day.
The second and third cars were dropped at Marysville. One went to the SN's downtown Marysville freight station, and the second was added to the SN night freight at Yuba City for Chico the next morning.
The last car was dropped at the WP depot in Oroville, and was moved via the SN to their downtown freight station. By this time the SN bridge over the Feather River had been washed out, and the SN tracks were operated as an isolated island.
The Merchandise cars were supposed to get priority unloading, and the empties were sent back to Oakland via freight train 53. They were then shuttled back across the Bay for cleaning to be ready for the next loading. Cars were loaded in San Francisco Monday through Friday. Cars were not loaded on Saturdays, Sundays or legal holidays.
This basically provided 48-hour delivery (except on Sundays and holidays) to downtown freight houses in the target cities, so retailers could pick up their goods at the freight house on the second day after calling in their order. This still couldn't match the truckers, who could pick up directly from the Bay Area suppliers, and if they drove all night, deliver directly to the merchant's store the next morning.?
How the service fared during WWII is unknown. There were a lot less consumer goods available to sell, but on the other hand gasoline was rationed even for truckers, and this may have balanced out some lost business. I seriously doubt that the railroad made a profit from their Merchandise Service, but probably were required to keep it running during the war years. Note that this service did not include the WP's regular LCL business, nor Railway Express Agency shipments.
When the decision to drop the service was made, and under what conditions, I don't know. As with most tariff changes, an?announcement was probably made in TRAFFIC WORLD, but I do not have access to relevant issues of that magazine. The answer is probably buried in the still uncataloged (AFAIK) WP papers held at the CSRM Library in Sacrament. Certainly when rationing ended after the?war, the trucking business boomed and rail shipments fell. I do know that the cars were stripped of their passenger fittings and returned to general service on AFE C-24-48. One car was still unconverted in the July 1949 ORER, perhaps having escaped off line in general service.
None of the 15 boxcars are known to survive today. The WPRM has the sole example of the 200-car class, 20094, but it is not one of the former express cars.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ???????? (Scotland forever!)
On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 12:51?PM Nick Lorusso via <nalorusso1978= [email protected]> wrote: Garth, That¡¯s what I¡¯m looking for Express service information?
Regards, Nick Lorusso On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 9:44?AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via <mallardlodge1000= [email protected]> wrote: Justin and Nick,
Justin, thanks for the recommendation, but I know next to nothing about WP's LCL service. I do know something about their Merchandise Express service (though not enough to write a complete article), but that is a different animal.
Yours Aye,
Garth ???????? (Scotland forever!)
On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 10:21?AM Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]> wrote:
Here are a few links I saw:
This is the original search page. Let me know if the link doesn¡¯t work.?
?Garth Groff is a great source. He is on the SacNorthern io group
Regards
Justin On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:11 AM, Nick Lorusso via <nalorusso1978=[email protected]> wrote: Hello Group,
I¡¯m trying to find information on WP¡¯s LCL service. And help would be great. Service area, years operating and equipment?
Regards?
Nick Lorusso
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?Beneath the paywall in the Oakland tribune archives,?you could see that it also mentions a Milpitas piggyback ramp, but I couldn¡¯t see the address underneath?in this 1964 ad or article. I searched for ¡°western pacific piggyback¡± with quotation marks altogether or you get 10,000 irrelevant results
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Western Pacific intermodal yard in Oakland
I went into the archives for the Oakland Tribune, it?shows three articles when I searched ¡°western pacific piggyback¡±. One of them (in the date range from 1964 to 1981),?I could see showed that it¡¯s actual piggyback operations we¡¯re at the Ferro?Street location in Oakland still operating today, but I had to register for a free seven days as a publisher to see the whole article. I didn¡¯t want to put my credit card on there. As best as I could tell, there were no pictures but you could model it with a lot of the equipment there today. Just use pictures of other railroad intermodal equipment for things that look too modern.
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There are first hand accounts of TOFC trains?from engineers on train orders but no building descriptions. They weren¡¯t all TOFC trains at first in 1973, mixed freight.??When I searched for ¡°piggyback service?western pacific Oakland WPX¡±, Google AI told me that it was operated from the Western Pacific building in Oakland California, but it didn¡¯t say where the operations were. Excellent comments on train orders. This was only one of many great descriptions of the schedule in that link? ¡°?The first solid intermodal train on the WP was the Sea Land train that was begun about 1973. This train ran only once a week in each direction I believe. The symbol may have been SEAL WB and COFC EB in the beginning but someone else will have to confirm that. The OMW and OME were begun in 1976 when Super C lost the mail contract to CNW/ UP/ WP. These trains were not all intermodal untill about 1978. The eastbound reefer train in the mid to late 1960's was the GGM. It would handle 20 - 40 reefers and was not all perishable lke most of the SP's RV trains. In the mid to late 1960's the WP ran a TOF eastbound. While this train handled the majority of the piggyback this amounted to only 10 - 15 flats per train.?? Dick EisfellerBig "E" ProductionsGreenland, NHWish I had more time to look up info for this thread.¡±
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Fw: [SacNorthern] Fw: [WPList] Express Service LCL freigjt
I want to say the book by?John J ?Ryczkowski had a lot of truck pictures. I am only home a few days a month so as soon as I get home, I spend time with the kids often.? Here and?there I get to read. I asked Charles Smiley?productions if he had any information in a phone message. He is an SN?modeler.
Begin forwarded message:
On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:59 AM, Justin Rowe via groups.io <justingrowe@...> wrote:
Hi Garth, ?Do you have some info on the LTL LCL trailer service?for the WP with pics from Oakland and SLC? ?Maybe the SN? This person on the WP list?sounds?like he is building a layout.??I work out of town and I am in Canada now so I rarely have access to my grand library. I wish I could retire early just to do some reading.?
Best regards
Justin
Begin forwarded message:
On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:21 AM, Justin Rowe via groups.io <justingrowe@...> wrote:
Here are a few links I saw:
This is the original search page. Let me know if the link doesn¡¯t work.?
?Garth Groff is a great source. He is on the SacNorthern io group
Regards
Justin On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:11 AM, Nick Lorusso via groups.io <nalorusso1978@...> wrote: Hello Group,
I¡¯m trying to find information on WP¡¯s LCL service. And help would be great. Service area, years operating and equipment?
Regards?
Nick Lorusso
|
Fw: [WPList] Express Service LCL freigjt
Hi Garth, ?Do you have some info on the LTL LCL trailer service?for the WP with pics from Oakland and SLC? ?Maybe the SN? This person on the WP list?sounds?like he is building a layout.??I work out of town and I am in Canada now so I rarely have access to my grand library. I wish I could retire early just to do some reading.?
Best regards
Justin
Begin forwarded message:
On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:21 AM, Justin Rowe via groups.io <justingrowe@...> wrote:
Here are a few links I saw:
This is the original search page. Let me know if the link doesn¡¯t work.?
?Garth Groff is a great source. He is on the SacNorthern io group
Regards
Justin On Sunday, November 24, 2024, 8:11 AM, Nick Lorusso via groups.io <nalorusso1978@...> wrote: Hello Group,
I¡¯m trying to find information on WP¡¯s LCL service. And help would be great. Service area, years operating and equipment?
Regards?
Nick Lorusso
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=R-D041cQozQ&feature=shared
This weathering?video was really impressive although I don¡¯t think I would put very much graffiti on my gondolas while weathering them. I have to try this for the Pittsburg?steel train. They also had a video on weathering clapboard and barnacles on piers. I couldn¡¯t bring myself to do heavy weathering on a locomotive.
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Alps printed decals don't need special paper.? However if you
don't over spray them with clear coat or dull coat they are prone
to rubbing off.? It is a hot wax process and so the wax will rub
off without protection.
Best,
Ken Harstine
On 11/24/2024 6:08 AM, Garth Groff and
Sally Sanford via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Justin,
I wasn't aware that ALPs printers needed their own special
decal paper, and from what I have read other decal?papers work
fine with?ALPS machines. Although ALPS home printers haven't
been made since 1990, I suspect they still?make specialty
machines for industrial use (ALPS technology was developed to
make stable bar?code labels). ALPS will factory-recondition
old machines, and their tape cartridges appear to still be in
production. I was surprised to learn that Kadee uses ALPS
printers for their custom decal service.
I have been printing white HO decals on my HP 254dw with
Ghost White laser toner and Tango Papa laser decal paper. I
like the Tango Papa paper because it has a slightly darker
backing than MicroMark or Microscale papers. That makes white
lettering easier to see for cutting.
Sorry, but I don't do custom work, and not SN decals -- I
can't do the arched?lettering. Most of my decals have been for
my fictional Virginia Midland and Sacramento Belt Line
railroads.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ???????? (Scotland forever!)
On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at
11:28?PM Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]>
wrote:
The decals for the Sacramento Northern Baldwin steeple cab
were made from Western Pacific?orange and green paint
scheme, orange stripes by Micro Scale together with
lettering that was custom made on an alp printer credit
to?Ken Harstine. But I have since found another waterslide
white?decal paper Sunnyscopa on Amazon?that doesn¡¯t require
clear coat and isn¡¯t faded according to Fine Scale Modeling,
if Alp paper is gone or too?old. It?works much better than
the cheaper?waterslide blank white paper. You could get a
larger scale Sacramento Northern boxcar or Baldwin
decals?and print and reduce?the side of it on the decal
paper?so the background was brown or Tuscan on the boxcar or
black for the steeple cab?as a new?alternative to make
decals. Usually you trim close and paint the edges to blend
color variations. The decal is even thinner. Might have to
rob from a model?some trolley pickup poles or make
them?since the guy who made them in Canada doesn¡¯t have
them.?
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Sorry it was just the opposite.? The decal paper I found was for use with various types of printers, not necessarily ALPS. The idea was to print the background color so the lettering would appear where the absence of color was.? Here is an article about various methods:
On Sun, Nov 24, 2024 at 4:09 AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via <mallardlodge1000= [email protected]> wrote:
Justin,
I wasn't aware that ALPs printers needed their own special decal paper, and from what I have read other decal?papers work fine with?ALPS machines. Although ALPS home printers haven't been made since 1990, I suspect they still?make specialty machines for industrial use (ALPS technology was developed to make stable bar?code labels). ALPS will factory-recondition old machines, and their tape cartridges appear to still be in production. I was surprised to learn that Kadee uses ALPS printers for their custom decal service.
I have been printing white HO decals on my HP 254dw with Ghost White laser toner and Tango Papa laser decal paper. I like the Tango Papa paper because it has a slightly darker backing than MicroMark or Microscale papers. That makes white lettering easier to see for cutting.
Sorry, but I don't do custom work, and not SN decals -- I can't do the arched?lettering. Most of my decals have been for my fictional Virginia Midland and Sacramento Belt Line railroads.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ???????? (Scotland forever!)
On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 11:28?PM Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]> wrote:
The decals for the Sacramento Northern Baldwin steeple cab were made from Western Pacific?orange and green paint scheme, orange stripes by Micro Scale together with lettering that was custom made on an alp printer credit to?Ken Harstine. But I have since found another waterslide white?decal paper Sunnyscopa on Amazon?that doesn¡¯t require clear coat and isn¡¯t faded according to Fine Scale Modeling, if Alp paper is gone or too?old. It?works much better than the cheaper?waterslide blank white paper. You could get a larger scale Sacramento Northern boxcar or Baldwin decals?and print and reduce?the side of it on the decal paper?so the background was brown or Tuscan on the boxcar or black for the steeple cab?as a new?alternative to make decals. Usually you trim close and paint the edges to blend color variations. The decal is even thinner. Might have to rob from a model?some trolley pickup poles or make them?since the guy who made them in Canada doesn¡¯t have them.?
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Justin,
I wasn't aware that ALPs printers needed their own special decal paper, and from what I have read other decal?papers work fine with?ALPS machines. Although ALPS home printers haven't been made since 1990, I suspect they still?make specialty machines for industrial use (ALPS technology was developed to make stable bar?code labels). ALPS will factory-recondition old machines, and their tape cartridges appear to still be in production. I was surprised to learn that Kadee uses ALPS printers for their custom decal service.
I have been printing white HO decals on my HP 254dw with Ghost White laser toner and Tango Papa laser decal paper. I like the Tango Papa paper because it has a slightly darker backing than MicroMark or Microscale papers. That makes white lettering easier to see for cutting.
Sorry, but I don't do custom work, and not SN decals -- I can't do the arched?lettering. Most of my decals have been for my fictional Virginia Midland and Sacramento Belt Line railroads.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ???????? (Scotland forever!)
On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 11:28?PM Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]> wrote:
The decals for the Sacramento Northern Baldwin steeple cab were made from Western Pacific?orange and green paint scheme, orange stripes by Micro Scale together with lettering that was custom made on an alp printer credit to?Ken Harstine. But I have since found another waterslide white?decal paper Sunnyscopa on Amazon?that doesn¡¯t require clear coat and isn¡¯t faded according to Fine Scale Modeling, if Alp paper is gone or too?old. It?works much better than the cheaper?waterslide blank white paper. You could get a larger scale Sacramento Northern boxcar or Baldwin decals?and print and reduce?the side of it on the decal paper?so the background was brown or Tuscan on the boxcar or black for the steeple cab?as a new?alternative to make decals. Usually you trim close and paint the edges to blend color variations. The decal is even thinner. Might have to rob from a model?some trolley pickup poles or make them?since the guy who made them in Canada doesn¡¯t have them.?
|
The decals for the Sacramento Northern Baldwin steeple cab were made from Western Pacific?orange and green paint scheme, orange stripes by Micro Scale together with lettering that was custom made on an alp printer credit to?Ken Harstine. But I have since found another waterslide white?decal paper Sunnyscopa on Amazon?that doesn¡¯t require clear coat and isn¡¯t faded according to Fine Scale Modeling, if Alp paper is gone or too?old. It?works much better than the cheaper?waterslide blank white paper. You could get a larger scale Sacramento Northern boxcar or Baldwin decals?and print and reduce?the side of it on the decal paper?so the background was brown or Tuscan on the boxcar or black for the steeple cab?as a new?alternative to make decals. Usually you trim close and paint the edges to blend color variations. The decal is even thinner. Might have to rob from a model?some trolley pickup poles or make them?since the guy who made them in Canada doesn¡¯t have them.?
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One more steeple in the site as well as a GE
One more print here. Also if you ask the guy with a GE steeple on the site he might reduce it to N-Scale if you show him what eBay?chassis it needs to fit. But when I bought a shapeways N-Scale GE steeple cab, it really didn¡¯t have room for a motor. I have one as a dummy and the other, the print was modified wider and taller to fit if I remember. It still sat?about 1 scale foot or two higher than the train body should be. I don¡¯t mind much
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Ken Harstine