Justin,
Earlier, the high cost was mentioned as a limiting factor. Sure the parts could be fabricated, or sourced off a less historic piece of equipment, but it will cost a lot of money that volunteer museums usually don't have, and will take years. Consider that the WRM might be able to restore two or three other cars for the same cost in less time. I expect they would opt for quantity over SN history, and I can't blame them.
While the WRM is largely focused on the SN, especially with the track and right-of-way they own, the museum includes fans of other railroads that are going to be lobbying for their favorite cars to be rebuilt too.?
IIRC, a few years ago the museum was giving consideration to restoring more double-end cars that could support their current unidirectional operation without having to run backwards. I expect we will see some of the better and larger steel streetcars restored in the next few years.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 4:44?PM Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]> wrote:
If Rothenburg and other German cities almost completely destroyed were rebuilt to secretly look original, it seems they could use similar trucks and suspension for the Bidwell. I know Jay Leno has a few rescued rare vehicles where they had a completely different chassis underneath either out of necessity or because the original was unreliable or difficult before it became rare.?
On Friday, December 8, 2023, 7:38 PM, Richard Brennan <rbrennan@...> wrote: The Bidwell in 1929 with original trucks...
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Sorry for the poor framing... this was a 'grab' shot by my Grandfather.
He was not a railfan... He was a?West Coast field engineer for Westinghouse!
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Richard Hastings Brennan - San Leandro
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If Rothenburg and other German cities almost completely destroyed were rebuilt to secretly look original, it seems they could use similar trucks and suspension for the Bidwell. I know Jay Leno has a few rescued rare vehicles where they had a completely different chassis underneath either out of necessity or because the original was unreliable or difficult before it became rare.?
On Friday, December 8, 2023, 7:38 PM, Richard Brennan <rbrennan@...> wrote: The Bidwell in 1929 with original trucks...
?
Sorry for the poor framing... this was a 'grab' shot by my Grandfather.
He was not a railfan... He was a?West Coast field engineer for Westinghouse!
?
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Richard Hastings Brennan - San Leandro
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The Bidwell in 1929 with original trucks...
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Sorry for the poor framing... this was a 'grab' shot by my Grandfather.
He was not a railfan... He was a?West Coast field engineer for Westinghouse!
?
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Richard Hastings Brennan - San Leandro
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for that information. That's such a shame that the car is in such bad shape. Very sorry to hear that, as it would be spectacular addition if it ever could be restored.
Regards,
James
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There are currently no plans for the Bidwell. The cost of restoration would be significant since everything below the floor line is gone. No truss rods, sills or any thing else. Many of us would love to see it restored but the a survey done years ago showed the cost to be almost prohibitive, I do not speak for the museum but as a knowledgeable member.
Michael Dreiling Retired General Manager Western Railway Museum
Bay Area Electric Railroad?Association
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On Dec 7, 2023, at 11:14, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:
Jim,
I have absolutely no idea about the WRM's?plans for Bidwell. I dropped my membership long ago.
Yours Aye,
Garth ?Groff On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 12:17?PM James Dolan < dolan@...> wrote: Hi Garth,
Yes, Bob Campbell was a treasure trove of information about the SN, particularly the South End. Such a loss of information when he passed away. Fortunately, he was wonderful about sharing his knowledge with those who were interested (I, too, have about 50 letters from Bob that are full of interesting tidbits about the SN :-)
Agreed about the Bidwell. Any idea why the WRM folks haven't (apparently) even started restoration efforts on that spectacular car. What an addition to their SN train that would make!?
Cheers,
james
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Jim,
I have absolutely no idea about the WRM's?plans for Bidwell. I dropped my membership long ago.
Yours Aye,
Garth ?Groff
On Thu, Dec 7, 2023 at 12:17?PM James Dolan < dolan@...> wrote: Hi Garth,
Yes, Bob Campbell was a treasure trove of information about the SN, particularly the South End. Such a loss of information when he passed away. Fortunately, he was wonderful about sharing his knowledge with those who were interested (I, too, have about 50 letters from Bob that are full of interesting tidbits about the SN :-)
Agreed about the Bidwell. Any idea why the WRM folks haven't (apparently) even started restoration efforts on that spectacular car. What an addition to their SN train that would make!?
Cheers,
james
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Hi Garth,
Yes, Bob Campbell was a treasure trove of information about the SN, particularly the South End. Such a loss of information when he passed away. Fortunately, he was wonderful about sharing his knowledge with those who were interested (I, too, have about 50 letters from Bob that are full of interesting tidbits about the SN :-)
Agreed about the Bidwell. Any idea why the WRM folks haven't (apparently) even started restoration efforts on that spectacular car. What an addition to their SN train that would make!?
Cheers,
james
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James,
Great information. Thanks much. While there was a paint shop at 40th & Shafter, nearly all repair work was done at Chico by the immediate post-war years. Bob C. would probably have known the details, and may have mentioned it in our correspondence. I have too many letters from him to search through right now (two binders worth!). He was a goldmine of information.
Bob told me that the orange-yellow used for the stripes was probably made from left-over dry pigments bought by Northern Electric for all their passenger and freight motors ("Yellow-bellies"). He thought several barrels of this stuff were still hanging around at Mulberry. There is no proof of this, but it is logical. The yellow stripes were certainly different from the WP Zephyr orange applied to 654 around 1964 at Sacramento. When 653 was donated to the OREM, they promptly repainted it with Zephyr orange, or something close to that. 653 NEVER wore this color in service. When painted brass models of the GE motors were imported in the 1990s, the motors were offered in both Mulberry yellow and Zephyr orange stripes. The models with Mulberry yellow stripes did not sell well. The importer received complaints from modelers who were certain that the motors always wore Zephyr orange. The physical evidence in plain view?on 652's hulk which sat around Rio Vista wearing Mulberry stripes until spruced up for static display a few years ago, but most of these guys absolutely knew they were "right". The other evidence is probably under layers of later paint on Bidwell, and will someday come to light when the?WRM finally restores this car.
Yours Aye,
Garth ??
On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 11:53?PM James Dolan < dolan@...> wrote: Hi again Garth,
Regarding the application of the orange stripes to SN motors, I have a photo of SN 661 from the Sprague collection dated 11-17-46(!) with freshly painted orange stripes. This would suggest that SN 661 was the first motor to receive orange stripes (albeit still with small numbers), even prior to the arrival the SN 44-tonners in December 1946, which as you know arrived with orange stripes. The SN 650 class motors appear to have received stripes during 1947 (SN 653 had them by May 1947, and SN 654 by September 1947, for example), whereas SN 603-604 didn't receive stripes until late 1948 or early 1949 (per Bob Campbell personal communication). SN 605 had stripes by 11-47, and SN 606 appears freshly painted with stripes in multiple photos from 9-48, so at least by then. I would guess on the basis of the seemingly drawn-out process of adding stripes that Mulberry added them whenever these motors headed up to Chico for shopping starting in late 1946 through probably late 1948 or possibly even early 1949. I wonder also whether the stripes could have been added on South End motors at 40th & Shafter shops. They certainly had the capability, but I would have guessed that the work was probably done at Mulberry.
Cheers,
James
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Phil and friends,
Yes, she did return to service. I have a whole series of photos by Ken Jenkins taken in 1952 chasing 661, wearing large side numbers. She and 660 laid up in reserve sometime after 1954. Motors 430, 650, 651, 660 and 661 were all officially retired and sold for scrap on AFE 2-57, dated 3-1-57. I don't have the documents in my collection, but IIRC they were scrapped by the Purdy?company.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
661 bent squarely !?? That should be an easy fix. Chain the frame
down at the cab, then jack up the ends back to square. Rebuild and out the door.
So, did 661 run again ?
Phil
Friends,
Recently I snapped up this photo of SN 661 in what appears to be dire straits. It appears to have been crunched ?(note the bowed frame above the right truck). The location is the Mulberry Shops in Chico (from the round vents above the doors).
Putting a date on it is harder. The earliest dated photo I have in my collection of a motor with tiger stripes is on a Will Whittaker shot of sister 660 dated 13?August 1948. He noted on the negative sleeve that this was "new paint". Mulberry Shops closed in 1951, so this puts a three-year window on the photo, 1948-1951.
Ah! What mysteries we find on our favorite line.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ??
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Hi again Garth,
Regarding the application of the orange stripes to SN motors, I have a photo of SN 661 from the Sprague collection dated 11-17-46(!) with freshly painted orange stripes. This would suggest that SN 661 was the first motor to receive orange stripes (albeit still with small numbers), even prior to the arrival the SN 44-tonners in December 1946, which as you know arrived with orange stripes. The SN 650 class motors appear to have received stripes during 1947 (SN 653 had them by May 1947, and SN 654 by September 1947, for example), whereas SN 603-604 didn't receive stripes until late 1948 or early 1949 (per Bob Campbell personal communication). SN 605 had stripes by 11-47, and SN 606 appears freshly painted with stripes in multiple photos from 9-48, so at least by then. I would guess on the basis of the seemingly drawn-out process of adding stripes that Mulberry added them whenever these motors headed up to Chico for shopping starting in late 1946 through probably late 1948 or possibly even early 1949. I wonder also whether the stripes could have been added on South End motors at 40th & Shafter shops. They certainly had the capability, but I would have guessed that the work was probably done at Mulberry.
Cheers,
James
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PS I suspect that this major shopping was when SN 661 received large numbers, which start appearing in Dudley Thickens 1949 photos, and his photo dates were quite trustworthy.
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Hi Garth,
I also have a copy of this photo and it was dated 9-14-48, so good call on the age range :-)?
I've never heard any details on the accident that befell 661. Does anyone know what happened to 661 and where it happened?
Regards,
James
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661 bent squarely !?? That should be an easy fix. Chain the frame
down at the cab, then jack up the ends back to square. Rebuild and out the door.
So, did 661 run again ?
Phil
Friends,
Recently I snapped up this photo of SN 661 in what appears to be dire straits. It appears to have been crunched ?(note the bowed frame above the right truck). The location is the Mulberry Shops in Chico (from the round vents above the doors).
Putting a date on it is harder. The earliest dated photo I have in my collection of a motor with tiger stripes is on a Will Whittaker shot of sister 660 dated 13?August 1948. He noted on the negative sleeve that this was "new paint". Mulberry Shops closed in 1951, so this puts a three-year window on the photo, 1948-1951.
Ah! What mysteries we find on our favorite line.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ??
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Friends,
Recently I snapped up this photo of SN 661 in what appears to be dire straits. It appears to have been crunched ?(note the bowed frame above the right truck). The location is the Mulberry Shops in Chico (from the round vents above the doors).
Putting a date on it is harder. The earliest dated photo I have in my collection of a motor with tiger stripes is on a Will Whittaker shot of sister 660 dated 13?August 1948. He noted on the negative sleeve that this was "new paint". Mulberry Shops closed in 1951, so this puts a three-year window on the photo, 1948-1951.
Ah! What mysteries we find on our favorite line.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff ??
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Re: ?Last SN freight west of Walnut Creek?
Garth,
Thanks for your reply. So there may have been a few months between the last run out of Oakland and the last run out of Lafayette. I just remember the sand and gravel operation in Lafayette that was located off of Moraga Blvd. I was about six.
For anyone that hasn't been to web site
it is worth a look. I attached one photo that shows the sand and gravel operation. The caption gave 1957, so very close to it's last days. Houses on Moraga Blvd can be seen in the background.
Cheers, Ian
On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 10:21:14 AM MST, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:
Ian,
I don't remember if anyone answered your?question. I've been really busy with other stuff, and just saw your post again today.
The track between West Lafayette and Walnut Creek was abandoned on 10 August 1958. According to WP Circular 167-E, the following industries were served by the SN (though which were still active during the last year is not known):
Diamond K Supply, 1 spot, coal and building materials Goforth-Sandefur & Elliot, team track, lumber Gordon's, team track, flat stones Lafayette Building Materials, 10 spots, rock and sand Sun Valley Lumber, no information given
Lafayette station was just a typical wooden shelter. The only picture I've seen just barely shows a section of the roof. Next to it was a small loading platform with a slope roofed shed open to the side facing the tracks. It was used by local dairy farmers for shipping milk in cans during passenger days.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
states that the last freight ran from Oakland to Lafayette on March 1, 1957. It also states that overhead wire and tracks were removed and the Shepherd Canyon tunnel sealed. My question is if any service continued, if only for a short time, to any points west of Walnut Creek, such as Lafayette and or Moraga. Wikipedia states that the following year (1958?), freight service only extended from Walnut Creek to Sacramento.This made me think that there was some service west of Walnut Creek from March 1957 until sometime in 1958.
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Re: ?Last SN freight west of Walnut Creek?
Ian,
I don't remember if anyone answered your?question. I've been really busy with other stuff, and just saw your post again today.
The track between West Lafayette and Walnut Creek was abandoned on 10 August 1958. According to WP Circular 167-E, the following industries were served by the SN (though which were still active during the last year is not known):
Diamond K Supply, 1 spot, coal and building materials Goforth-Sandefur & Elliot, team track, lumber Gordon's, team track, flat stones Lafayette Building Materials, 10 spots, rock and sand Sun Valley Lumber, no information given
Lafayette station was just a typical wooden shelter. The only picture I've seen just barely shows a section of the roof. Next to it was a small loading platform with a slope roofed shed open to the side facing the tracks. It was used by local dairy farmers for shipping milk in cans during passenger days.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
states that the last freight ran from Oakland to Lafayette on March 1, 1957. It also states that overhead wire and tracks were removed and the Shepherd Canyon tunnel sealed. My question is if any service continued, if only for a short time, to any points west of Walnut Creek, such as Lafayette and or Moraga. Wikipedia states that the following year (1958?), freight service only extended from Walnut Creek to Sacramento.This made me think that there was some service west of Walnut Creek from March 1957 until sometime in 1958.
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Re: https://youtube.com/watch?v=rAHce8Ke6u8&feature=shared
Oh wow. Did not look too bad thankfully. What was the route of the excursion? Did it go from north to south and then the fire happened near Havens on the way back? What year was this? El El mar, nov 21, 2023 a la(s) 6:38?p.m., Justin Rowe via <justingrowe= [email protected]> escribi¨®:
Here is a video of when OA&E 1020 caught fire before it was restored and preserved at western railway museum.?
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?Last SN freight west of Walnut Creek?
states that the last freight ran from Oakland to Lafayette on March 1, 1957. It also states that overhead wire and tracks were removed and the Shepherd Canyon tunnel sealed. My question is if any service continued, if only for a short time, to any points west of Walnut Creek, such as Lafayette and or Moraga. Wikipedia states that the following year (1958?), freight service only extended from Walnut Creek to Sacramento.This made me think that there was some service west of Walnut Creek from March 1957 until sometime in 1958.
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=rAHce8Ke6u8&feature=shared
Here is a video of when OA&E 1020 caught fire before it was restored and preserved at western railway museum.?
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=b5clCIvPUuE&feature=shared
Southern California Railway Museum has SN?steeple cab?653 running again. When I was there it was in static.?
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Richard Brennan
Philip Schmierer
