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I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
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My mechanic was able to change the timing belt on my S2 without removing the motor - they used some mirrors to help see what they were doing. Sounds like they haven’t tried that.
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On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
? I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
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Toaph, I changed the timing belt in my garage.? All the problems I had were directly related to my inexperience.? Bring the engine to TDC and double check the timing marks on the camshaft pulleys.? All three marks must line up.? Releasing the tensioner CORRECTLY and being sure it is released was my toughest problem.? New belt will slide on with just a small bit of pressure.? Removing the fuel tank IS a major job.? Lots of time there.? Don't think it is necessary to remove the engine to do it.? If you do remove the engine, have the top and bottom renewed while it's out.? I removed the head on my 907.? Had it rebuilt in Batavia.? Reinstalled it with guidance from Tim Engel.? Seems way too high but.........
Lyn
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 10:02:14 AM EDT, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
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On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 10:16:50 AM AST, Murray Graham <murraygraham1961@...> wrote:
My mechanic was able to change the timing belt on my S2 without removing the motor - they used some mirrors to help see what they were doing. Sounds like they haven’t tried that.
On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:02 AM, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
? I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
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My mechanic also replace belt in situ. Put a blanket on the engine and did it with mirrors.?
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I have a G-body Turbo with a/c. Even on this car it can be done without pulling the engine.
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I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks
while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
-- Toaph
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Toaph, ? There is a video on my web site () that shows how to get the belt on. It is very doable with the engine in place. The shop manual tells you the steps to follow. This shop shouldn’t be trusted with the job, since they don’t know how to do it. $10k is absurd. ? If you look on SJ Sportscar’s web site, you will see that a “C” service, which includes the timing belt, is $1500, but also covers oil change, spark plugs, adjusting the valves, new gearbox oil, and brake fluid flush. Their shop rate is $66/hr, and they have 14 hours in there. Shop rates in this country are 2-3 times that, so adjust the amount accordingly, ? There are too many horror stories form Esprit owners where a shop undertakes something like this. They keep the car for a year or two, don’t finish the job, then you have to fight to get the car out of them, and find someone else to do the work. Save yourself the grief, They don’t really want the work, thus the high price, ir they have no idea what they are doing. ? Used to have a friend with a Ferrari Testarosa which required the engine to be removed for a timing belt change, every two years. It was $20k, but that was a huge job. Engine removal isn’t that hard in these cars, and definitely not $10k, and not needed for the timing belt. Now, if you are replacing fuel tanks, I understand that it is almost required, difficult to accomplish with them in place. ? Bill ? ? ?
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From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 9:37 AM To: [email protected]Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ? I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
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Have done the timing belt in situ on my s2 a few times in my 18 years of ownership and that’s without a pit or lift.?
Does help to be limber though !
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If they aren’t sure what they’re doing then removing the engine is a straight forward but time consuming way to make sure they do the job right. Your paying extra for their desire to do it right but also for their ignorance in not knowing how to do it in the first place. That said, adding the fuel tanks and I would seriously consider removing the engine. With the engine out then all of the other engine service items do become easier while its out. ?The S1/S2 is much harder to work on than the later Turbo cars. The early chassis has horrible access to the front of the engine from underneath so seeing and reaching up in there is hard and and that adds to the desire to remove it so you can see what your doing but you can certainly do the belt in the car.?
I’d like to see the detailed estimate of what they’re going to do for $10k though. Is that just a shoot from the hip estimate or a thought out detailed estimate? Mostly it sounds like you should try someone else. For that money you could ship it to someone who really knows what they’re doing and still come out ahead.? Dave C
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On Jul 23, 2022, at 10:12 AM, Bill Galbraith <Lotus@...> wrote:
? Toaph, ? There is a video on my web site () that shows how to get the belt on. It is very doable with the engine in place. The shop manual tells you the steps to follow. This shop shouldn’t be trusted with the job, since they don’t know how to do it. $10k is absurd. ? If you look on SJ Sportscar’s web site, you will see that a “C” service, which includes the timing belt, is $1500, but also covers oil change, spark plugs, adjusting the valves, new gearbox oil, and brake fluid flush. Their shop rate is $66/hr, and they have 14 hours in there. Shop rates in this country are 2-3 times that, so adjust the amount accordingly, ? There are too many horror stories form Esprit owners where a shop undertakes something like this. They keep the car for a year or two, don’t finish the job, then you have to fight to get the car out of them, and find someone else to do the work. Save yourself the grief, They don’t really want the work, thus the high price, ir they have no idea what they are doing. ? Used to have a friend with a Ferrari Testarosa which required the engine to be removed for a timing belt change, every two years. It was $20k, but that was a huge job. Engine removal isn’t that hard in these cars, and definitely not $10k, and not needed for the timing belt. Now, if you are replacing fuel tanks, I understand that it is almost required, difficult to accomplish with them in place. ? Bill ? ? ? From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 9:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ? I took my S1 to an experienced Euro shop for some maintenance items, not the least of which is a nice new timing belt.? They said it's an engine-out procedure, and with some additional things like fixing oil leaks and installing new gas tanks while the engine is out, the estimate came to $10,000.00.? I practically fainted on the spot.? I want to treat this car right, and I'm sick of fixing things one-by-one, but I hadn't planned on investing nearly that kind of money into this car.? Any thoughts?
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The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is...
ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing):
0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2
REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning):
2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric).
2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic).
3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced
0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2
CHECK Valve Clearances:
1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances:
4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y:
9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
My experience is that it takes about
3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and...
5.5 hours to install the engine.
9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order.
My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !!
What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware.
Regards,
Tim Engel
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EXCELLENT to see the shop Flat Rate hours. Thanks Tim. ? I think someone in the UK bragged that they could do the timing belt in 20 minutes from underneath. Sounds like a really professional job…. NOT! ? Bill ?
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From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Tim Engel
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2022 1:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ? The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is...
ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing):
0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2
REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning):
2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric).
2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic).
3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced
0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2
CHECK Valve Clearances:
1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances:
4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y:
9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
My experience is that it takes about
3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and...
5.5 hours to install the engine.
9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order.
My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !!
What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware.
Regards,
Tim Engel
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Thanks to everyone who replied, especially Bill with the link to the video, and Tim for all the details.? I'm not sure how email attachments work on groups.io, but I tried attaching
my statement of work and their estimate for those who are interested.? In the past I've gone to this shop for some miscellaneous, relatively minor things on a couple of my cars, and they did a fine job.? If anything my complaint was they weren't thorough enough.? I don't know if they've gone through some changes, or if this was just an isolated bad experience.? I'm going to have them tune the carbs and set the timing to the best of their ability and leave it at that.? I will NOT be signing up for the $10K package.
-- Toaph
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 01:32:15 PM EDT, Tim Engel <tsengel@...> wrote:
The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is...
ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing):
0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2
REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning):
2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric).
2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic).
3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced
0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2
CHECK Valve Clearances:
1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances:
4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y:
9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
My experience is that it takes about
3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and...
5.5 hours to install the engine.
9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order.
My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !!
What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware.
Regards,
Tim Engel
|
Quick update.? I just got off the phone with their front office guy.? He admitted that it's possible to replace the timing belt without removing the engine, but they prefer to do it the other way.? He had also mentioned in our previous conversation that the carbs were "leaking."? I asked where the leak was coming from, and he said, "The carbs."? My confidence has dropped below zero.? I'm not going to even let these guys check the timing.? Game over.? They're off my list for good.
-- Toaph
On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 09:29:01 AM EDT, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote:
Thanks to everyone who replied, especially Bill with the link to the video, and Tim for all the details.? I'm not sure how email attachments work on groups.io, but I tried attaching
my statement of work and their estimate for those who are interested.? In the past I've gone to this shop for some miscellaneous, relatively minor things on a couple of my cars, and they did a fine job.? If anything my complaint was they weren't thorough enough.? I don't know if they've gone through some changes, or if this was just an isolated bad experience.? I'm going to have them tune the carbs and set the timing to the best of their ability and leave it at that.? I will NOT be signing up for the $10K package.
-- Toaph
On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 01:32:15 PM EDT, Tim Engel <tsengel@...> wrote:
The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is...
ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing):
0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2
REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning):
2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric).
2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic).
3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced
0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2
CHECK Valve Clearances:
1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances:
4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y:
9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
My experience is that it takes about
3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and...
5.5 hours to install the engine.
9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order.
My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !!
What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware.
Regards,
Tim Engel
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Toaph,
That shop is off your list... I get it.
But just a different note after reviewing their quotation...
The Zenith-Stromberg 'choke' (enrichment device) requires two gaskets.
1) One internal for it's own rebuild, and
2) One between it and the carb body to install it on the carb.
Omitting either one results in a fuel leak.
The standard Z-S only includes one. You have to order the second one separately, and the shop's quote doesn't indicate whether or not they did that.
Regards,
Tim Engel
07/25/2022, 8:53AM, Toaph <toaph@...> wrote:
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Quick update. I just got off the phone with their front office guy. He admitted that it's possible to replace the timing belt without removing the engine, but they prefer to do it the other way. He had also mentioned in our previous conversation that the carbs were "leaking." I asked where the leak was coming from, and he said, "The carbs." My confidence has dropped below zero. I'm not going to even let these guys check the timing. Game over. They're off my list for good.
-- Toaph
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Toaph ? - Engine removal – Brace yourself for this one, but THEY ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY. Maybe they need to watch my video to see how easy it is to do in place. If you are replacing all the coolant hoses, that job is much simpler without that lump in the way. Replace all the fuel hoses at the same time.
- Leaking carbs – Yes, that is probably a good statement. Unless it is leaking from the banjo bolt where the fuel line attach to the carbs, “the carbs” is a good statement for where they are leaking.
? Since you want them to check the alternator, it is removed during the timing belt installation, so it’s a good time to check the output. If you need a new one, they are available rewound to provide up to 110 amps in the same case, whereas the original was considerable less than that. ? I see that you are trying to get the most out of the engine. I don’t think that you have smog checks in NY, and if you don’t, you might consider replaced the Stomberg carbs with Dellortos. It’s going to be pricey, because you have to replace the intake manifold as well. My guess would be $1200-$1500 for intake manifold and carbs. Factory rating for the Domestic (UK) cars with Dellortos is 160 hp (also running a different timing), Federal with Stombergs is only 140 HP, which use a retarded timing. If you REALLY want to get fancy, the steel fuel line is different between the Domestic and Federal cars. On the UK cars, the fuel line comes up to the carbs near the front of the engine. In the Federal cars with Stombergs, it comes up from the rear, so when most people in the US put Dellortos on their cars, they still have the fuel lines entering from the rear of the engine. Not a huge difference, and only good for 10 HP or so (okay, calm down. I’m kidding). ? Bill ? ?
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From: [email protected] <> On Behalf Of Toaph via groups.io Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 9:53 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected]Subject: Re: [S1S2euroS3LotusEspritOwners] Is the timing belt an engine-out procedure? ? Quick update.? I just got off the phone with their front office guy.? He admitted that it's possible to replace the timing belt without removing the engine, but they prefer to do it the other way.? He had also mentioned in our previous conversation that the carbs were "leaking."? I asked where the leak was coming from, and he said, "The carbs."? My confidence has dropped below zero.? I'm not going to even let these guys check the timing.? Game over.? They're off my list for good. On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 09:29:01 AM EDT, Toaph via groups.io <toaph@...> wrote: Thanks to everyone who replied, especially Bill with the link to the video, and Tim for all the details.? I'm not sure how email attachments work on groups.io, but I tried attaching
my statement of work and their estimate for those who are interested.? In the past I've gone to this shop for some miscellaneous, relatively minor things on a couple of my cars, and they did a fine job.? If anything my complaint was they weren't thorough enough.? I don't know if they've gone through some changes, or if this was just an isolated bad experience.? I'm going to have them tune the carbs and set the timing to the best of their ability and leave it at that.? I will NOT be signing up for the $10K package. On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 01:32:15 PM EDT, Tim Engel <tsengel@...> wrote: The engine DOES NOT have to come out in order to replace the timing belt and tensioner bearing.? ?In my Esprit S2, I could replace both the belt & bearing in 3.0 hours with the engine IN the Esprit.? ?My record in a front-engined Eclat is 45 minutes for the timing belt only.? ?In general, replacing the tensioner bearing adds about 15 minutes to the task.
According to Lotus' Flat Rate Labor Manual, the time to accomplish the following tasks is...
ADJUST Timing Belt Tension (including setting cam timing):
0.8 hr = Esprit S1,? ?or? ?1.1 hr = Esprit S2
REPLACE Timing Belt (including setting cam timing & tensioning):
2.8 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (eccentric).
2.5 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
REPLACE (plug & play) Timing Belt Tensioner (semi-automatic).
3.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADD the following time to both of the above IF the tensioner bearing is replaced
0.3 hr?= Esprit S1 & S2
CHECK Valve Clearances:
1.1 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
ADJUST (ie, shim) Valve Clearances:
4.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
Remove & Replace Engine & Gearbox Ass'y:
9.0 hr = Esprit S1 & S2
My experience is that it takes about
3.5 hours to put the engine on the floor, and...
5.5 hours to install the engine.
9.0 billable hoiurs, and they have not yet accomplished one single thing that was on your work order.
My best advice... do NOT do business with that shop.? ?They're scamming you/ padding the bill.? ?Removing the engine first is only easier/ faster 'IF' you ignore the amount of time and effort required to remove & replace the engine.? ?In general, you (or the mechanic) CAN NOT save enough time doing the above tasks on the engine out of the car to offset the time and effort (grief, pain, etc) required to remove & replace the engine !!
What is the name and address of the shop that insists upon removing the engine first.? ?Every Lotus owner living near you should be aware.
Regards,
Tim Engel
|
TYPO... darn it.
I wrote:
The standard Z-S only includes one.
I meant to write:
The standard Z-S REBUILD KIT only includes one.
Sorry about any confusion.
Regards,
Tim Engel
07/25/2022, 10:09AM, Tim Engel <TSEngel@...> wrote:
(Snip)...
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The standard Z-S only includes one. You have to order the second one separately, and the shop's quote doesn't indicate whether or not they did that.
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pmapilot
Bill Galbraith
