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I did not go to the Lionel booth at Springfield so was surprised to learn they announced a HO car there. ?Ironically it is a car I was trying to make and sell as 3D printed in 2015 as 3DModelTech. ? I think Lionel is seeing the future of toy trains in general in decline not just American Flyer. So it is evolve or die. Further I think the ore car is just the beginning of what will be future accurate detailed HO models. Lionel may look significantly different in 10 years than the 3 rail dinosaur they are now. ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
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We'll have to see how far Lionel evolves.? Their 2024 HO catalogs are chock full of licensed fantasy stuff with their proprietary electronics.? At least they appear to have ditched the recycled Marx and Model Power HO.? Oddly enough, they seem to now be doing an HO boxcar based off of the Flyer boxcar...
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One thing is for sure: HO is the most competitive market where they will have to overcome the "Lionel stigma."
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Rich G(ajnak)
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When my uncle passed away a few years ago I inherited some of his train collection.? He was an O gauge Lionel fan with no concern for scale.? He simply loved how the trains kept him connected to his childhood.
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
I, until that point, had no idea that Lionel had ever been in the HO business.
Andrew Parker
We'll have to see how far Lionel evolves.? Their 2024 HO catalogs are chock full of licensed fantasy stuff with their proprietary electronics.? At least they appear to have ditched the recycled Marx and Model Power HO.? Oddly enough, they seem to now be doing an HO boxcar based off of the Flyer boxcar...
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Rich G(ajnak)
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On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via <andriaart1= [email protected]> wrote:
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off on a curve.
Ken G.
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After Lionel stopped using Rivarossi, they did contract with Athearn.? And Athearn had the "Hi-F" drive for a while, and I think were the only ones that had it.? Athearn also bought the HObbyline (John English) diesel shell so some of the "Lionel" HO was a bit of a mashup.? The Virginian Rectifier that Athearn provided was interesting because it came on rather incorrect EMD Blomberg trucks from Athearn's "GP9.".
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 04:15:39 PM PST, ken garber via groups.io <garber.ken@...> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via <andriaart1= [email protected]> wrote:
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off on a curve.
Ken G.
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As did their O gauge EP-5 electric, with EMD four wheel instead of six wheel trucks (Flyers was more accurate). Then again, an in-accurate Flyer Virginian might have generated more sales for AC Gilbert, and could have been painted New Haven orange.
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025, 7:37 PM, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:
After Lionel stopped using Rivarossi, they did contract with Athearn.? And Athearn had the "Hi-F" drive for a while, and I think were the only ones that had it.? Athearn also bought the HObbyline (John English) diesel shell so some of the "Lionel" HO was a bit of a mashup.? The Virginian Rectifier that Athearn provided was interesting because it came on rather incorrect EMD Blomberg trucks from Athearn's "GP9.".
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 04:15:39 PM PST, ken garber via groups.io <garber.ken@...> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via <andriaart1= [email protected]> wrote:
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off on a curve.
Ken G.
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On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 04:51 AM, Pieter Roos wrote:
As did their O gauge EP-5 electric, with EMD four wheel instead of six wheel trucks (Flyers was more accurate). Then again, an in-accurate Flyer Virginian might have generated more sales for AC Gilbert, and could have been painted New Haven orange.
Accuracy never deterred Lionel...
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Rich G(ajnak)
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And a bit more useless trivia--in HO,
Gilbert used the Varney F unit as their's.? I don't know if it was
the entire unit or just the shell.? I think it was also mentioned
that a couple of the freight cars came from other sources too.
I was always admiring Gilbert's version
of the North Coast Limited.? The S version with it's PA's just
didn't float!? The North Coast Limited was one of a very few
passenger consists i'd ever seen 1:1
Bob Werre
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
After Lionel stopped using
Rivarossi, they did contract with Athearn.? And Athearn had
the "Hi-F" drive for a while, and I think were the only ones
that had it.? Athearn also bought the HObbyline (John English)
diesel shell so some of the "Lionel" HO was a bit of a
mashup.? The Virginian Rectifier that Athearn provided was
interesting because it came on rather incorrect EMD Blomberg
trucks from Athearn's "GP9.".
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 04:15:39 PM PST, ken
garber via groups.io <garber.ken@...>
wrote:
On
Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via
<andriaart1= [email protected]>
wrote:
Part of what I received was a
Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F
units and passenger cars.? The traction was
provided by spinning roods with rubber bands
between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The
Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few
others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off
on a curve.
Ken G.
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As I recall (being a long-time HO modeler until I went to O scale forty-five years ago), AF also
used the Varney hoppers and tank cars.
The High-F drive was an attempt to cut costs to bring more budget-conscious people into the scale; it was not a success, and?
they soon returned to a decent geared drive.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
And a bit more useless trivia--in HO, Gilbert used the Varney F unit as their's.? I don't know if it was the entire unit or just the shell.? I think it was also mentioned that a couple of the freight cars came from other sources too.
I was always admiring Gilbert's version of the North Coast Limited.? The S version with it's PA's just didn't float!? The North Coast Limited was one of a very few passenger consists i'd ever seen 1:1
Bob Werre
After Lionel stopped using Rivarossi, they did contract with Athearn.? And Athearn had the "Hi-F" drive for a while, and I think were the only ones that had it.? Athearn also bought the HObbyline (John English) diesel shell so some of the "Lionel" HO was a
bit of a mashup.? The Virginian Rectifier that Athearn provided was interesting because it came on rather incorrect EMD Blomberg trucks from Athearn's "GP9.".
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 04:15:39 PM PST, ken garber via groups.io
<garber.ken@...>?wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via ?<andriaart1= [email protected]> wrote:
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off on a curve.
Ken G.
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On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 11:09 AM, JGG KahnSr wrote:
The High-F drive was an attempt to cut costs to bring more budget-conscious people into the scale; it was not a success, and?
they soon returned to a decent geared drive.
?
Well, not quite, more of a hybrid.? See attached...
?
Athearn used the rubber band drive for years.? Their RDC's and Hustlers never had gear drive.? My first Athearn set had rubber band drive.
?
BTW: Flyer HO also used Mantua streamline passenger cars and used a modified Mantua General set for the HO Frontiersman set.
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Rich G(ajnak)
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Then definitely not "Hi-F."? However, the earlier Athearn metal RDC's did have gear drive.? Vertical motor on the front truck.? But I think we are spinning off on a topic more suited to the VintageHO group.
Charles E "Chuck" Kinzer
On Thursday, February 13, 2025 at 11:31:20 AM PST, Rich Gajnak via groups.io <rustytraque@...> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 11:09 AM, JGG KahnSr wrote:
The High-F drive was an attempt to cut costs to bring more budget-conscious people into the scale; it was not a success, and?
they soon returned to a decent geared drive.
?
Well, not quite, more of a hybrid.? See attached...
?
Athearn used the rubber band drive for years.? Their RDC's and Hustlers never had gear drive.? My first Athearn set had rubber band drive.
?
BTW: Flyer HO also used Mantua streamline passenger cars and used a modified Mantua General set for the HO Frontiersman set.
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Rich G(ajnak)
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While Gilbert did use the Mantua/Tyco General set for their FY&P old timer in HO, it is just the opposite as to the streamline passenger cars.? Actually Mantua/Tyco used Gilbert streamline passenger bodies on their own chassis in 1959.?? Mantua was phasing out their shorty aluminum cars and didn't have their own plastic versions ready to go yet.? These 1959 Mantua/Tyco by Gilbert are longer cars by about one window than the later Mantua manufactured cars.? For full details see
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 2/13/2025 11:31 AM, Rich Gajnak via groups.io wrote: BTW: Flyer HO also used Mantua streamline passenger cars and used a modified Mantua General set for the HO Frontiersman set.
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Hard to believe that any HO mfg'er would be proud of that mess of a drive design.
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LOL!
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Andre
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toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message -----
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Well, not quite, more of a hybrid.? See attached...
?
Athearn used the rubber band drive for years.? Their RDC's and Hustlers never had gear drive.? My first Athearn set had rubber band drive.
?
BTW: Flyer HO also used Mantua streamline passenger cars and used a modified Mantua General set for the HO Frontiersman set.
?
Rich G(ajnak)
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I have two Lionel K5 Pacifics that I got from my afore mentioned Uncle that have two wheel pilot trucks.? My AC Gilbert Pacific has the appropriate 4 wheel pilot truck.
Andrew Parker
As did their O gauge EP-5 electric, with EMD four wheel instead of six wheel trucks (Flyers was more accurate). Then again, an in-accurate Flyer Virginian might have generated more sales for AC Gilbert, and could have been painted New Haven orange.
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025, 7:37 PM, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:
After Lionel stopped using Rivarossi, they did contract with Athearn.? And Athearn had the "Hi-F" drive for a while, and I think were the only ones that had it.? Athearn also bought the HObbyline (John English) diesel shell so some of the "Lionel" HO was a bit of a mashup.? The Virginian Rectifier that Athearn provided was interesting because it came on rather incorrect EMD Blomberg trucks from Athearn's "GP9.".
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, February 12, 2025 at 04:15:39 PM PST, ken garber via groups.io <garber.ken@...> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:56?PM Andrew Parker via <andriaart1= [email protected]> wrote:
Part of what I received was a Lionel HO gauge train set.? ?New Haven F units and passenger cars.? The traction was provided by spinning roods with rubber bands between the motor and the trucks.
Drive could have been made by Athearn.? ?The Athearn RDC and the Hustler (and maybe a few others) were rubber band drives.
At high speed they were guaranteed to fly off on a curve.
Ken G.
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And it’s hard to argue with success, and Lionel together with O have more success and product than S.
For 50 years we have been pushing the size of S and decrying being held back by Flyer - what if embracing hi-rail and and simply pushing for more new product was the real answer? There isn’t a detail that people do in S that isn’t common in modern HO, clearly what drives the more successful scales is variety of product. Not just new paint schemes, although those were slow to come in S as well.? Whole new models.
Someone has to invest, is one issue. But Andre’s point is rather than pushing for “more scale, no big flanges” it is possible that scale-looking models with easier to re-rail flanges and rail would have drawn more people to S than attempts to be “more scale too”.
On Thursday, February 13, 2025, 9:41 AM, Rich Gajnak via groups.io <rustytraque@...> wrote: On Thu, Feb 13, 2025 at 04:51 AM, Pieter Roos wrote:
As did their O gauge EP-5 electric, with EMD four wheel instead of six wheel trucks (Flyers was more accurate). Then again, an in-accurate Flyer Virginian might have generated more sales for AC Gilbert, and could have been painted New Haven orange.
Accuracy never deterred Lionel...
?
Rich G(ajnak)
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On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 06:20 AM, Pieter Roos wrote:
- what if embracing hi-rail and and simply pushing for more new product was the real answer?
EXACTLY!!!!? After all, the difference is only in wheels and couplers...
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Rich G(ajnak)
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Wow, Pieter.
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THAT'S a radical thought.
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In my case, my reasons for considering S Hi Rail as my last layout theme is pretty much for exactly?the reasons you mention:
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* Easier to?handle than HO. (Including easier to re-rail/etc.)
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* More rubust than my fragile HO models.
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* I would have "Outgrown" (i.e. aged out) the desire to add detail. (Simply becomes too tedious and not fun.)
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As I stated, I see S Hi Rail as an opporunity for me to see visually pleasing trains running on 2 rails that are larger and more robust for my 80+ year old hands to deal with.
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Frankly, what I will eventually face (hope to, anyway!), will be faced by a LOT of HO modelers. The stuff just gets too small as we age.
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However, on a down note, most of those will simply let their HO?layout and equipment sit and languish instead of being proactive and making an alternate?way to enjoy trains.
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That is going to be my challenge: To not ride the HO train too long to where I don't have the phyical ability or energy to dismantle and dispose of the HO. I will need to recognize when the time is right, and begin the change before that time arrives.
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Worse comes to worse, I can at least start my S Hi Rail project as I tend to the duties of dismantling/disposing of the HO. That way I have trains running in short order so I can always enjoy the fun of miniature trains moving on miniature rails!
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ALWAYS have a plan. (That's the slogan I?live by! LOL!)
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Andre Ming
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On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 06:20 AM, Pieter Roos wrote:
clearly what drives the more successful scales is variety of product.
Pieter hit the nail on the head.? All the S talk and pictures has not (yet) brought forth any significant new products to S scale.? Maybe working as a collective entity and combining money would help.? Or, actively soliciting a Sugar Daddy to step up.? Or anything that aims at making new products rather than more and more videos.? Don't get me wrong, I like the videos, but they do not bring new products to the market.? Serious money out there needs to recognize S as an opportunity.
--
Ed Loizeaux
Los Altos, CA
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Bill Lane
ken garber
Bob Werre
