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The more surprising in that 00 used 4mm instead of the bizarre 3.5mm.
North American TT largely went into decline because HP, its largest manufacturer and biggest booster, stopped making it; I don't think I ever heard why that happened, whether something went wrong for Hal Joyce or something else.
It didn't help that one of the best advertisements for that scale was Glyn Lewis's column in RMC which was discontinued (along with Dick Andrews' narrow gage column) when Charles Penn, the publisher, started slashing costs by stiffing writers and going to toilet
paper pages.? I've always wondered whether that had anything to do with bankrolling his ghost town in Arizona.? It was a great publication before that, and one of the reasons I got into TT at the time was because of the column; it took ten or twelve years
after Hal Carstens took it over before RMC started recovering its reputation.
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Bill without question.? ?Especially since his web site said "a South Jersey joint".? ?The other is Stan Strockroki.? ?Their YouTube videos inspired me tremendously.
Andrew Parker
I know that there are
at least 10 people in S Scale now because they found my website before the NASG website. I have been told directly by these people. Andrew is 1 of them.
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Peter V does an amazing job capturing ALL of S Scale. But in no way can he be responsible for showing what or how to work on the trains etc in project form. I am at least
100 project pages of various things. Peter has hyperlinked many photos to my project pages.
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221 locos – at least 195 are DCC ready and SHOULD run
872 freight cars
147 passenger cars.
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Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale!
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See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
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Since Jace brought up "TT", as an aside I would like to point out that Hornby is leading a resurgence of British TT:
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https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120?srsltid=AfmBOorQbZrvYGeC3z59hLDwmJPQZyQePHHQP9kTmZWx6eOHt25CzgSY
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True TT or 3mm???
Talmadge C 'TC' Carr
Sn42 and Mn42 in 1923
group_list@...
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On 25March2025, at 18:10, John Hutnick via groups.io <johnhutnick@...> wrote:
Since Jace brought up "TT", as an aside I would like to point out that Hornby is leading a resurgence of British TT:
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This is one of the info panels I made for Scouting Merit Badge classes we do at our local railroad museum.? Each has a very brief comment.? If any seem wrong, let me know.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 06:54:56 PM PDT, Talmadge C 'TC' Carr <group_list@...> wrote:
True TT or 3mm??? Talmadge C 'TC' Carr Sn42 and Mn42 in 1923 group_list@...> On 25March2025, at 18:10, John Hutnick via groups.io <johnhutnick@...> wrote: > > Since Jace brought up "TT", as an aside I would like to point out that Hornby is leading a resurgence of British TT:
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Please refer to what I linked.? Hornby states 120(2.54mm/ft).? Is this "true" TT or is it no good?? TT is whatever Hornby makes.? We don't make anything.
Consider O.? US is 1:48.? Everywhere else is 7mm, 1:43.5.? Is US O gauge true O?? No.
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I would suggest that O27 is O gauge but is not to any scale.? It is the true toy train system.
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O27 is typically very undersized.? But most of the "regular O Gauge" Lionel and others sold was also undersized and not to scale.? Only the occasional item was scale such as the scale Hudson and the B6 switcher and the FM Trainmaster.? I don't know if any cars were scale.? In modern times, there are plenty of scale offerings of course.? But still plenty of under scale which is called "conventional."
For example, in the photo below, the boxcar in front of the 3-rail track with grey roadbed is a Lionel 6464 series car and was the largest they made during their "hey day."? The one to the right in front of O scale 2-rail track is a scale sized 40 ft. car.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer.
On Tuesday, March 25, 2025 at 09:54:19 PM PDT, Kim Hartshorn via groups.io <w.kim.hartshorn@...> wrote:
I would suggest that O27 is O gauge but is not to any scale.? It is the true toy train system.
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Hi Chuck --
Nothing "wrong" there, but just as much as there is a "Q" scale, there is also Proto 48 with a nominal standard gauge of the track at 1-11/64" (if my math is correct!).
All too fussy for me.? ?I made my own S/Sn3 track gauge tool way back (40+years ago) before I knew of commercial products (photo).? ?I still use it, though I do have an NMRA Sn3 gauge.? ?I keep thinking of getting an NASG gauge, but since virtually all of my track is laid and runs well, there is nothing to be gained now.? ?More of my time is spent correcting wheel gauge and coupler heights when things don't behave.??
I was asked a question and given a comment by Ed Loizeaux back in 1995 when I gave a clinic on dual gauge turnouts after I made a statement about the most critical dimension?to maintain was the distance from the stock rail and its adjacent guard rail to the point of?the frog.? Ed felt that going "broad?gauge" anywhere was just as bad as going to the narrow side of things, a point well taken.? Accuracy in gauge is important at all places.? ?Recently, I started having some issues with track that had been laid nearly 20 years ago and I found that it had gone ever so slightly narrow gauge.? ?I was surprised because every rail was spiked at every tie and even with a great deal of force the rails were virtually immovable.? ?I came to the realization that over all of that time in our dry climate, the ties had actually shrunk in length the tiniest bit!? ?So a large blade screwdriver stuck in the?web of the rail and struck with a moderate whack from a mallet worked as my track's gandy dancers and put things to right.? ? ?
Regarding rail size -- I Iike trains of all sizes.? ?S just happens to be the "Goldilocks" scale for me.? ?Play values change with the various scales, partly due to the physical ability to handle them, partly due to the space they take or don't, partly because of how much of the railroad you can see at one glance.? ?One does not see switching layouts in the very small (Z minus and even not so much in N) scales, even though you have the "Big Picture."? ?Same goes for the?very large scales (G/F, you ride on it, and most 3 rail?O) because that requires?real?leg work.? ?Okay, back to rail size -- to me, and I am not criticizing anyone else's choice (!!), I want to see my amazing, smooth running, highly detailed models in a realistic environment, otherwise they are just expensive toys and they lose the "railfanning" ability that is my personal enjoyment.? ?That I?can do "operations" with them is a plus.? ?Rail size and curvature are two big factors in this.? ?Large rails emphasize?the sharpness of our curves, so to my way of thinking, the sharper our curves, the smaller the rail we should use.? ?I used code 100 for my standard gauge main tracks.? ?Were I to do it again, I would use code 83 even though I use 72" radius or larger on those main tracks (15 degree curve in real life).? Photo attached of code 100 rail on my layout.? To me, it still looks a bit big for the kind of track it is.
Scale S, which essentially uses HO RP25 wheel?profiles and HO track standards for turnout flangeways is a great compromise between operating reliability and near perfect scaling of rolling stock wheels and track that goes a long way towards realism and good railfanning.? However, there is no argument that hi-rail rolling stock is probably?much less subject to derailments due to mishandling of any kind and much?less fussy to put on the rails!? ?
Have fun! Bill Winans ---------------
This is one of the info panels I made for Scouting Merit Badge classes we do at our local railroad museum.? Each has a very brief comment.? If any seem wrong, let me know.
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
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Hi John --
American TT was 1/10" per foot.? ?2.54 mm is very close.? ?Re: O standard gauge, see Chuck's Q and my Proto48 comments.? ?You are correct?about 1-1/4" .? ?Of course, HO's 3.5mm / foot is a result of being Half of 7mm O.
Bill Winans -----------------------------
Please refer to what I linked.? Hornby states 120(2.54mm/ft).? Is this "true" TT or is it no good?? TT is whatever Hornby makes.? We don't make anything.
Consider O.? US is 1:48.? Everywhere else is 7mm, 1:43.5.? Is US O gauge true O?? No.
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3mm is a British thing, which is why I asked.
Talmadge C 'TC' Carr
Sn42 and Mn42 in 1923
group_list@...
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On 25March2025, at 19:24, John Hutnick via groups.io <johnhutnick@...> wrote:
Please refer to what I linked. Hornby states 120(2.54mm/ft). Is this "true" TT or is it no good? TT is whatever Hornby makes. We don't make anything.
Consider O. US is 1:48. Everywhere else is 7mm, 1:43.5. Is US O gauge true O? No.
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Chuck,
HOn2 is not popular. ? Instead HOn30 is very popular.? Bob Hayden and Dave Frary popularized it in the 70s and there are still modelers around the world.? Recently Minitrains were reissued and Toma out of Japan has done runs of locomotives.? Toma has done runs of three Maine two foot prototypes and more.
As an Sn2 modeler it is a scale gauge combination that has a following.? But I’m not sure Boy Scouts need to know of it.
Dave K.
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Interesting that TT scale comes up.
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I dabbled in TT back in the mid '70s; purchased an E7, some cars and some of that terrible HP track from a full page ad in RMC. I think the seller might have been John Harmon(?).? I sold those items within a couple of years and went back to doing HO.
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Just recently picked up a few TT pieces again, just for laughs. The crudeness of those models are part of their charm, I think. 1/120 seems quite small after playing around with O and S, so I think S will remain my focus.
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If we (as a group) sometimes lament the lack of products available in S, just look at it this way: as of this morning (I just checked), there are currently 510 items on eBay lasted as "American Models S scale"; for "HP Products TT Gauge" there are...25.
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So suddenly, S seems quite plentiful!?
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Mark in Oregon
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Germans manufacture quite a bit of TT; I frankly don't recall whether it is actually congruent with the TT3 common in Britain.
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Please refer to what I linked.? Hornby states 120(2.54mm/ft).? Is this "true" TT or is it no good?? TT is whatever Hornby makes.? We don't make anything.
Consider O.? US is 1:48.? Everywhere else is 7mm, 1:43.5.? Is US O gauge true O?? No.
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There were a few HOn30 modelers even in the mid-1960's.? I didn't have much time or money right then for trains, but I did buy a both sets of the AHM MIni-trains with the hope of converting them to HOn2, my real interest.? What really opened it up was not just
the Frary/Hayden articles but the availability of N scale track and mechanisms which they used.? N scale did for HO narrow gage what HO track and mechanisms did for On30—both attempts to lure people to narrow gage who were neither machinists nor rich.? In
fact, the British (and the Japanese) were already much involved in using HO track for O scale models and OO9 for HO.??
On2 is still, after all these years, a craftsman scale, despite some commercial support; HOn2 has always been only something available to those who are willing and able to build their own mechanisms and hand-lay track.? Far more modelers are willing to overlook
the disparity between gage and scale.
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Chuck,
HOn2 is not popular. ? Instead HOn30 is very popular.? Bob Hayden and Dave Frary popularized it in the 70s and there are still modelers around the world.? Recently Minitrains were reissued and Toma out of Japan has done runs of locomotives.?
Toma has done runs of three Maine two foot prototypes and more.
As an Sn2 modeler it is a scale gauge combination that has a following.? But I’m not sure Boy Scouts need to know of it.
Dave K.
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The German, and eastern Europe, TT is the same as American. Like I said 3mm is a British thing.
Talmadge C 'TC' Carr
Sn42 and Mn42 in 1923
group_list@...
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On 26March2025, at 07:16, JGG KahnSr via groups.io <jacekahn@...> wrote:
Germans manufacture quite a bit of TT; I frankly don't recall whether it is actually congruent with the TT3 common in Britain.
JGGK
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You might also add On2 to the list.? ? Two things about this list and the subsequent discussion jump out at me.
1. The existence of a number of variations in any given scale is not limited to S.? ?We often bemoan our tripartite reality in S but we're hardly alone.
2.? The confusion that this creates would seem to me to be terribly confusing and off putting for anyone considering model railroading as a hobby.? ?
An analogy:? some folks don't like our two party system but I've seen walls plastered with campaign ads for 11 parties in one European country and could only imagine the issues that creates.? ?Choice has its virtues but there's a downside.? ?The expression- the tyranny of small differences- seems apt.? ? Maybe it's not the differences themselves that matter so much?as does the constant arguing about them and the insistence of the superiority of one's own choices.?
The exclusion of anyone from our meetings seems the height of parochialism and blatantly counterproductive, as is the failure to connect with those in other scales.
-- Michael Fox
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JGGK wrote: Germans manufacture quite a bit of TT; I frankly don't recall whether it is actually congruent with the TT3 common in Britain.
East German influence?? ?I seem to recall that TT was popular in Russian and the former Soviet bloc countries.
Michael Fox
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----- Original Message ----- From: Kim Hartshorn via groups.io < w.kim.hartshorn@...> I would suggest that O27 is O gauge but is not to any scale.??It is the true toy train system. > > > > > > > > > > > I have found that the dimensions of many Lionel O27 and MTH RailKing cars are right on for?scale in? height and?length.? Only the width is a little too much for S.? But some of them can be narrowed down.? I have done that to Lionel boxcars, MTH double-stack cars, and one Lionel centerbeam car,?
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And there are at least two cars that come with O gauge trucks & couplers that are right on for S, no narrowing needed.??These would be the little Lionel double-door boxcar and the Industrial Rail caboose.
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I suspect it is not coincidence that many O gauge, less than O scale, cars have dimensions that are good for S.? The original designers may have looked at 1/64 and seen that it worked for their products.
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Tom Hawley? --? Lansing Michigan
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Nice You might also define scale and gauge; I presume that would be helpful for museum attendees.??
There is also Sn2
Ted Larson -- Ted Larson trainweb.org/mhrr/??????? --------??????? NASG.org??????? --------??????? GN in 1965
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Actually, two other info panels DO cover scale and gauge.
 Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Wednesday, March 26, 2025 at 04:07:03 PM PDT, Ted Larson via groups.io <mhrreast@...> wrote:
Nice You might also define scale and gauge; I presume that would be helpful for museum attendees.??
There is also Sn2
Ted Larson -- Ted Larson trainweb.org/mhrr/??????? --------??????? NASG.org??????? --------??????? GN in 1965
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Talmadge C 'TC' Carr
.JPG)
Mark Mugnai
Ted Larson