Browsing old Heralds and other journals, apparently the Setsers (Seltzers?) did quite a bit of business repainting AF bodies.
I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that I bought a pair of much-rebuilt tank cars at an S Fest over a dozen years ago.? Someone with?
both ability and dedication had done an excellent job of turning the AF tank bodies into credible scale cars.? Could even have been?
Troxell.? Do either of these look familiar, Bob?
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Let me mention just a tiny bit of history here.?
Much of the end of Flyer in the 60's ended up at Hobby Surplus in large bins of parts.? When our lost bid for the NASG convention and it's related car occured, Jack Troxell still wanted a tank car train, so he built one!? He bought
a couple dozen of those very Shell Tank car shells and the chassis for them.? There were only two pieces--- chassis with bottom half of the tank, and then the top half of the tank.? Your photo shows it's missing the metal railing, & the ladder.? I'm surprised
it has the safety plaque and brake wheel.? Regardless, he spent about $2.00each.?
Of course it's well known what kinda work he did with those cars!? I put one aside for my RR, but I also have possession of all the jigs he made for that conversion.? I guess they are for sale!? However the knowledge to actually
make new versions has been lost. ?
So yes, not worth anything much above a couple of bucks back then so you can't expect much more today.? So Lionel should have been aware of all the old stuff that probably was of better quality when they opened that surprise box
and let the vampire live again!.?
Then we have old Rollie stomping on old AF cabooses as he auctioned them off!
Bob Werre
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, Bill... ebay is the nail in AF's coffin.? I can't count the numbers of UNSELLING AF trains that are always listed on ebay, and at prices that one might think would guarantee a sale... but
no.? It seems that sellers can't even "GIVE" them away.? And I can attest to that fact since I have been trying to sell TWO NIV Lionel/AF items for over 4 years on the GROUPS, and I have not had even ONE bite of interest in them... even listed at MAKE OFFER
and pay postage prices.? So it looks like I'm literally going to have to throw them in the trash!
?
(See attached images and MAKE ME AN OFFER)
?
?
John D
?
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Re: Springfield Train Show
If memory serves, that was about the original list price.? At Bristol NASG (three years ago?) someone had a Flying Yankee for around $800, as I recall, apparently with no takers.? I'd have grabbed it, except I'd already gotten mine as part of a high-end lot
of S scale brass; it took me 3-4 years to sell it all, most of it as attractively priced as I could stand, but I recouped my investment and had the Flying Yankee to the good.
JGGK
The Bristol S Gauge Railroaders had a Flying Yankee on their sale table
which went fairly quickly asking $2300. They had maybe a dozen used
scale freight cars for sale. They also had a couple of dozen Hi-Rail and
AF pieces. There were a number of other booths with Hi-Rail and AF but I
didn't see any other scale S gauge.
Jim Woodward
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----- Original Message -----
Andrew Parker wrote:
The SD70 was retrofitted with scale wheels and couplers mounted to the body. <snip> It also threw every car attached to the loco off the rails on my 54" curves.??So, as a result I have to foist it on Bill's layout to enjoy its true potential.
> > > > > > > > >
That should not happen.??There's no way we can fix the problem from out here, but you have got to get you eyes right down at track-level and run it very slowly and see what the problem is.
tom Hawley??--??Lansing Mich
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Re: Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale
Bob: ? The please read my message more carefully.? I was not discussing your AC-5.? The second AC-5 as well as the Big Boy and Challenger ( and I think the AC-12 though I do not recall) went to the NMRA for display at CSRM.? The same guy that sent you your AC-5 at the direction of the Goehring family delivered these locos to Bob Brown and Charlie Getz who were heading up the NMRA exhibit at the CSRM.? ? ? Thanks to Robert Carter who confirmed that these locos are on display.? I hope to have the opportunity to see them this weekend when I attend the LdSig/OpSig meeting at CSRM this weekend. ? ~ John
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Re: It's Official: No More Flyer
All I can say is hmmmm.? ?I will have to take a closer look at what I have going on.? Thank you.
Andrew
On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 03:32 PM, Andrew Parker wrote:
?I see in your photos ES 44s.?
Well, the trailing locomotive is an SD70.
?
When I wrote my review in OGR back in 2012, I also included a photo of the SD70 coupled to an AM gondola and PRS 50' boxcar on my 29" radius passing track.? The couplers were at their limits, but the cars didn't derail.
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Re: Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale
Robert...
Many thanks for confirming this Jesse Bennett locomotive is at the CSRM.? The model is of SP #4209, a AC-10 Cab Forward. It has the "modern" cab and is detailed correctly?for?an AC-10, 11 or 12.?
?I noticed on the NASG website that a Leonard Williams has videos of Jesse's Northern Pacific Yellowstone #5011 (2-8-8-4) and a UP Challenger of his that is unpainted.? There is a direct link to view these two models?running.? ? If his UP Challenger and Big Boy are at CSRMthat means he built at least two Challengers,?including Leonard William's.? Still unaccounted for is his personal AC-5 "Flat faced" Cab Forward.? It can be seen on the NASG website, together with three other articulateds, in Vic Cherven's roundhouse photo on Jesse's layout.
Progress!
Bob Hogan
On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 1:08?PM Roger Nulton via <roger.nulton= [email protected]> wrote: Robert, Outstanding! Thanks. Roger Nulton ? ? Here is the Jess Bennett Cab Foward in the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, CA. They also have a Jess Bennett built Challenger and Big Boy.
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> Lionel was owned by Fundimensions/MPC back then and still finding its way in the market.? Lionel is now well established and owned by an investment company.
?
Interesting. Seems similar to M?rklin that was taken over by some hedgefonds guys. History repeated. I think in the years to come I will hunt for some modern Flyonel Diesels that fit into my roster and hopefully also find some replacement wheels for scale. Maybe some hoppers will come along with those machines.
Today I cleaned up my bureau and found some code 70 Shinohara in HO, brand new, never used. Bought in a time I was not into S but switching from M?rklin AC 3rail to DC 2rail to be able to run some locos that never came for the M?rklin system (that was before DCC and super tiny sound decoders). In the end it all remained a torso. I should do the test if my super detailed BLI B&O-locos (a nice E6 and a Baldwin Sharknose) are compatible with code 70 rail or if the flanges are too high for that kind of track.
?
Greetings from a moist and windy winter night in Middle Franconia, Hans
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I don't think they'll reverse their decision of leaving the market. We are a niche in the hobby und we never were really interesting for them despite some lip service they did at the turn of the century around 1998. The short spring for Flyer was around 2010 - 2015 when they issued some "modern" Diesels and rolling stock like those infamous cylindrical hoppers with the well known problems. When I was in O only a very small segment of their catalog was of some interest for me. I bought some hoppers and a modern boxcar in heritage livery and with a lighted Star Spangled Banner that were well prepared for 2rail conversion with scale replacement wheels and predrilled holes for Kadees. Yes, Lionel did that although they sadly had none of their premium locos ever in a 2rail version.
Regarding traction power I was always relying on Atlas and MTH - they build some outstanding prototypes in O. For example I got George Walker Bush's SD70 and a few other treasures for 2rail O scale rtr, no conversion needed and equipped with a digital module that is compatible with DCC - not great like some ESU or ZIMO decoders, but useable. In S that prototype will remain a dream fading out slowly... At the moment we can be even glad if we get some rail in code 100 with Tomalco also leaving the business heading to an uncertain future...
?
Tired greetings, Hans
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Re: Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale
Robert, Outstanding! Thanks. Roger Nulton ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Robert Carter via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2025 9:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [S-Scale] Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale? Here is the Jess Bennett Cab Foward in the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, CA. They also have a Jess Bennett built Challenger and Big Boy.
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As long as Lionel only recycles old tooling with new paint, there will be very little market for "new" AF. And as long as they keep insisting on making locomotives with every bell and whistle (and voices) in them, driving the prices up to over $1,000 each, there will be very little market for them. There are many ways they could make NEW AF with little tooling costs; they did it once by taking the cupola off the bay window caboose, something I suggested to them (and one major collector was upset with me because he was told it was my letter that caused that to happen--no way of me know as it was never acknowledged!). So one "new" car would be to take the 027 double door boxcar (which is actually 3/16" scale) and put an AF chassis under it.? (Yes, I've done that so know it works) Another one that I think would "hit it out of the ballpark" would be to take the existing Northern tooling, make a new boiler shell and tender shell and create the SP "Daylight" engine-and it can be painted many ways: Daylight (duh!), Wartime black and silver, WP scheme (they had 2 of them), Freedom train, and BNSF Executive excursion would all be authentic. Granted, the drivers are slightly off, and it would be nice to change the drive rods to be more authentic. Build it simple (traditional, I think they call it) so the price is affordable and the scale conversion people would have a field day with it.?
But this would require creative thinking and marketing, something they are not famous for.
Oh, and then there's the possibility of doing the N&W J with the tooling. . . . .
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Re: Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale
Here is the Jess Bennett Cab Foward in the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento, CA. They also have a Jess Bennett built Challenger and Big Boy.
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 07:41 AM, Bob Werre wrote:
Now go back to the early 70's when the original creator of Ace (Gaebler-(sp), a lawyer as I recall persuaded Lionel to rerun several of the AF cars--hoppers, box, & reefers.? Obviously he had enough business knowledge and guts, along with cash to make Lionel smile;
Lionel is not the same company it was in the 1970's.? Lionel was owned by Fundimensions/MPC back then and still finding its way in the market.? Lionel is now well established and owned by an investment company.
?
Rich G(ajnak)
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Re: Springfield Train Show
The Bristol S Gauge Railroaders had a Flying Yankee on their sale table which went fairly quickly asking $2300. They had maybe a dozen used scale freight cars for sale. They also had a couple of dozen Hi-Rail and AF pieces. There were a number of other booths with Hi-Rail and AF but I didn't see any other scale S gauge.
Jim Woodward
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I'm a bit like Jamie with the "late"
Lionel stuff.? I once owned three OMI SD40-2' engines, a Modern
Models caboose, some double stacks, a long Tank Train and other
modern'ish stuff.? I've had to trim that down more than a bit.? I
still have some U-Boats, SD-60 and a 40-2.? I would have loved a
couple of U-33's but with all that expensive and useless
electronics inside--only if I win big at something!
Now go back to the early 70's when the
original creator of Ace (Gaebler-(sp), a lawyer as I recall
persuaded Lionel to rerun several of the AF cars--hoppers, box,
& reefers.? Obviously he had enough business knowledge and
guts, along with cash to make Lionel smile; then he was also happy
to add a bunch of his Ace trucks, Ace bolsters, Ace wheels along
with the new reborn AF shells--enough to return his investment
plus profit??? So basically Lionel leased out a run of X# of cars
that Ace then added their trucks etc.? So in the end, a one piece
molded boxcar costing a dollar or two was then sold as a kit, with
trucks, couplers for another profit center.?
Now obviously at that time Ace only
sold basic kits, no decorated kits but with newer pad printing and
other applied items by later owners they could or were
successful!? Of course the Ace line morphed into Downs and a
couple of other owners for finished product.? To the best of my
knowledge Mr. Down employed others to help in the manufacturing of
that line.?
Bob Werre?
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Here's an idea. Since Lionel apparently has some
recently mothballed tooling, perhaps they might be interested in
recouping?some of their investment by selling it off. I don't
generally model modern stuff, so I haven't paid much attention
to their offerings. From my perspective though, the U 33(?), the
modern?GE and?the SD70 look to be of at least American Models
quality. The cylindrical hopper is decent too. I know there are
potential issues with putting die A into injection molding
machine B, but that's the limit of my knowledge in that field.
Still, it seems like it might be a less expensive way to get
"new" products, or at least return some things to the market.
Maybe we S scalers could start a Go Fund Me or likewise to move
it forward. Would American Models be interested in taking over
production if this were at all feasible?
Jamie Bothwell
Bethlehem, PA
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"Purchasing" the AF tooling
Over in the model car kit world, a given car kit, for which tooling exists, and which might not otherwise be run,
can be re-run by a manufacturer if and when someone contracts it and puts up the money.
Seems like these special runs would be more of a possibility, however remote, than Lionel sending all the tooling to somebody else.
But somebody still has to pay up front, do all the distributing, etc. and Lionel may not want to provide the competition with product.
Just a thought.
Bill in Ft Worth
?
?
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The SD70 was retrofitted with scale wheels and couplers
mounted to the body. <snip> It also threw every car attached to
the loco off the rails on my 54" curves.? So, as a result I have to
foist it on Bill's layout to enjoy its true potential.
Andrew, does your track have transition curvature (easement) When entering your curves from the straights? Otherwise it could be be quite a lurch, even on a large radius.? Just wondering
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Re: S scale switching layout plan
Do you anticipate taking your layout to various events, or will it live with you until you move or replace it?
?
My sectional layout is 5' (152 cm) long, since that's the largest that will fit in my vehicle. If I build another section, I will use lightweight "waffle" construction.
--
Mark Charles
Ann Arbor, Mich. USA
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On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 02:25 AM, Jamie Bothwell wrote:
Here's an idea. Since Lionel apparently has some recently mothballed tooling, perhaps they might be interested in recouping?some of their investment by selling it off. I don't generally model modern stuff, so I haven't paid much attention to their offerings. From my perspective though, the U 33(?), the modern?GE and?the SD70 look to be of at least American Models quality. The cylindrical hopper is decent too. I know there are potential issues with putting die A into injection molding machine B, but that's the limit of my knowledge in that field. Still, it seems like it might be a less expensive way to get "new" products, or at least return some things to the market. Maybe we S scalers could start a Go Fund Me or likewise to move it forward. Would American Models be interested in taking over production if this were at all feasible?
**Sigh** This isn't the first suggestion of Lionel selling the tooling.
?
It ain't gonna happen. (IMHO) Lionel would rather have a bunch of doorstops that sell off to any potential competition.
?
I don't think AM is in any position financially or physically to buy the tooling or create new tooling (Sorry AM, just my observation. I do have a bunch of respect for what you have produced over the years.)? The last new loco out of AM was the RS-11 way back in 2015.? I'm sure if they had the resources to produce more new stuff during the passing decade, they would have.
?
Rich G(ajnak)
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Re: Unique Southern Pacific AC-5 Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 for sale
John...
My model is the AC-5 locomotive that Jesse built for Lee.? I did some work on it for?Lee?and know it well. Lee and his old BASS layout were kinda tough on his models.? It went to Arden after Lee's passing and then it came to me., not the?CSRM.? ?This I know for a fact.??
There was a sister AC-5 on Jesse's layout.? THAT is the one that we do not know?what happened to it.? If there is an AC-5 on display at the CSRM it would be Jesse's model as there were only two built.? It is also unclear as to what happened to the balance of the Jesse-built brass locomotives.? He had a UP Big Boy, a UP Challenger, a AC-12?cab forward and several other award winning articulateds running on his layout.? My assumption was that his estate/family kept them all, but anything is possible.? Maybe the one at CSRM (if really/still there) is actually one of his AC-12 models? I was surprised?to hear from David on the cab forward model he acquired.? It is of the AC-10 to 12 type and is certainly a Bennett-built?model.? Lee told me that Jesse never made a cab forward for?anyone else but him and how much persuading it took to get Jesse to build it.? Gotta love a mystery!
Bob Hogan
FWIW: ? I believe the “sister” to this loco was acquired by Arden Geohring from either Jesse himself or the estate.? When Arden passed, the Geohring family donated the loco to the NMRA for display in its The Magic of Scale Model Railroading exhibit at the California State Railroad Museum.? Even though the museum is in my backyard, I have not gone to see if the loco was displayed.? Guess I need to take a trip . . . ? John Gibson Rocklin, CA ? ?
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Here's an idea. Since Lionel apparently has some recently mothballed tooling, perhaps they might be interested in recouping?some of their investment by selling it off. I don't generally model modern stuff, so I haven't paid much attention to their offerings. From my perspective though, the U 33(?), the modern?GE and?the SD70 look to be of at least American Models quality. The cylindrical hopper is decent too. I know there are potential issues with putting die A into injection molding machine B, but that's the limit of my knowledge in that field. Still, it seems like it might be a less expensive way to get "new" products, or at least return some things to the market. Maybe we S scalers could start a Go Fund Me or likewise to move it forward. Would American Models be interested in taking over production if this were at all feasible? Jamie Bothwell Bethlehem, PA
On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 1:46?AM Corbin Bates via <corbinbates= [email protected]> wrote: There is plenty of people able to the design work and tool making out there if you have the funds to do it. Each mold will cost you about $100,000 dollars to create them. You will need 7 to 9 molds for a completely new engine if not more. Besides the tooling you will need electric motors and electronics plus wheel sets. Then you need the funds to run the first batch of the new engine. After the first run you have to paint, print, assemble and provide packaging so you can ship the new engine out to customers. All said and done you are at least $1,000,000 dollars into it before your first sale. It isn’t a cheap venture without capital to invest in it.?
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Roger Nulton
David Dewey
Robert Carter
Bob Werre