I was briefly bored once in 2011 and did this as a goof. ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Jeff, You could try a cheap ATV winch from Harbor freight that would allow you to lift and reset your hatch with the push of a button. Probably won’t even deeded the gas struts.
Regards,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 25, 2024, at 12:22?PM, JJundt <cobramach1@...> wrote:
?
Pulleys and a cable attached to the door so you can pull from base of stairs to open the door easily with your existing counter weights. I had to come up with a door up to my railroad room as well though my door doesn’t open up into the room but the loft area
in front of the room I designed a very lightweight door similar to how you would make a module with 1x4 and foam and used automotive gas pistons from a car hood system to easily open the door and allow it to stay open. While that works for me now I can see
when I get older it could be harder to open even for me but that is when I’ll install a pulley to aid in opening it with little to no effort. Just a thought.?
<image0.jpeg> <image1.jpeg> <image2.jpeg> <image3.jpeg>
On Jun 25, 2024, at 12:09?PM, Bob Werre <bob@...> wrote:
?
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no water/bathroom
(both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've attached a couple
of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with the room plans not to mention
most of my visitors too.? I laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and
several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
<DSCN9941.JPG>
<DSCN9945.JPG>
<floordoor.3.jpg>
|
I have updated my page. Work has started. ? ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
|
Re: Custom Decal Recommendation
Trying both suffixes found “.CA” to be correct.?
Dave McBrayer? Auburn, CA ? ——————
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 25, 2024, at 15:47, Roger Nulton via groups.io <roger.nulton@...> wrote:
? Oh, I get it, duh! Thank you Brooks. But I have to say, it’s a mystery to me why someone in business would want to hide their email address. ? So my next dumb question is: is the last part of Billy’s address “dot CA” or “dot com”? ? Roger Nulton ? ? Roger,
The owner's name is Billy Brillinger.? Email is "billy at pdc dot CA".? The email is also in Ed's post above.
I can also highly recommend him...quality, price, service are all top notch!
Brooks Stover
--
Dave McBrayer
Auburn, CA?
|
Re: Custom Decal Recommendation
Oh, I get it, duh! Thank you Brooks. But I have to say, it’s a mystery to me why someone in business would want to hide their email address. ? So my next dumb question is: is the last part of Billy’s address “dot CA” or “dot com”? ? Roger Nulton ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Brooks Stover
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [S-Scale] Custom Decal Recommendation? Roger,
The owner's name is Billy Brillinger.? Email is "billy at pdc dot CA".? The email is also in Ed's post above.
I can also highly recommend him...quality, price, service are all top notch!
Brooks Stover
|
Re: Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had
I have no first-hand knowledge, but I have received a few e-mails
from people indicating that John either hasn't been responding to
e-mails, or his e-mail address is no longer valid.
- Peter.
On 06/25/2024 01:02 PM, Richard Haley
wrote:
That address does not want to work for me...
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 12:39?PM John Degnan via groups.io
<scaler164@...> wrote:
John Wickham is my go -to guy for all of my custom made turnouts.
John D
--
Peter Vanvliet (info@...)
owner, Fourth Ray Software
Houston, Texas
(personal web site)
|
Re: Custom Decal Recommendation
CC made my Meremac Valley Lines and my GP 7-9 Eagle sets that I gave permission to sell to the public.? Matt is great to work with.? Mike Swederska?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 25, 2024, at 3:12?PM, Bill Lane via groups.io <bill@...> wrote:
? I simply cannot say enough good things about Circus City Decals. He is beyond excellent in every way. ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
--
Mike Swederska
Meramec Valley Lines
Modeling Mopac equipment in 3/16
Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough! Keep model railroading fun!
|
Re: hypothetical question with a real answer
Love your version of Thomas.? I know several people who have made their own. ? What I still don’t understand is why one of the company’s making S equipment didn’t see this as an opportunity to engage youngsters to join the S family. ?
I actually have sewn a dress……. ? ?It was when my daughter and I were in the YMCA Indian Guides and Princesses program.? For one of our projects, when she was about 9 or 10, we made a “leather” dress with sea shells sewn into a pattern on the front.? She had to dream about the dress and pattern and then we went through our buckets of sea shells collected over the years and she picked out the shells from her dream. ?
These days, I dream of S module improvements and changes, and the buildings I am going to build, (and the pile of metal in my driveway I’m trying, with much help, to restore into an operating P1800.
It’s good to remember that Sinatra, Neil Young and our former Sc Episcopal Bishop Waldo are also train nerds.? Not bad company.
Ted
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 9:39?AM Jerry Poniatowski via <poniaj37= [email protected]> wrote: Ted,
I agree with almost everything you said.? I have been doing my best to get my grandsons interested in modeling in general, ant trains in particular.? Whether it will take hold is a question for the future.? But as of now, the first thing they do is head for the basement to run trains.? So they've populated it with all sorts of fantasy figures.? They're having fun running trains.? Will this hobby survive?? Perhaps, but not in the quantity and manner it is in now. ?
As to the Thomas question, that's why I built my own a few years ago.? The photo was taken on the SMSG display layout a? while ago and now occupies a place of honor near the engine facility on my layout. ? And the list you compiled has been completed by me more than once (except for the sewing part... especially the dress.? LOL). ?
But since I have a few hours and it's raining now, I think I will also? take some time to watch my ever growing grass and contemplate the near-at-hand. ? Let's not take ourselves TOO seriously guys.? ;>)
Jerry Poniatowski (train nerd, among other types)
Brighton, MI
|
Re: Custom Decal Recommendation
I simply cannot say enough good things about Circus City Decals. He is beyond excellent in every way. ? Thank You,
Bill Lane
Modeling the Mighty Pennsy, PRSL & Reading in 1957 in S Scale since 1987
See my finished models at:
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale! ? See my layout progress at:
Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join!??
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL
?
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
This has been a good creative excercise
and I thank you for the ideas.? All make sense in some way but
there are only so many ways this can be accomplished in the
critically narrow space I have--here is where that extra 6" or 2'
or maybe 6' would be perfect!?
Indeed this addition (450 sq ft),was
largely scratchbilt, although I did hire a helper with 'some'
knowledge plus a high school level textbook.? Club members helped
in several areas, especially when it came time to haul
wheelbarrows of concrete!? I also had only basic knowledge of
these trades, but it passed the inspections once I determined the
rules!? Over the years it's also endured a handful of hurricanes.?
I couldn't began a project like that again.?
It's been mentioned to add additional
weight--I did add several lbs a few years back but it reached the
point of starting to put a bow in the door, so that point had been
reached.? The power winch might work--thinking of the units
mounted on Jeep's to get out of trouble.? If they work on 12 volts
that could be the answer--note to self--check it out!? As a
battery backup could handle loss of power too!? A typical hand
crank used to reel in a small boat could work too--we used them to
raise large lights and scrims in the studio--just where do I
anchor it?
Bob Werre
Phototraxx
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Pulleys and a cable attached to the door so you can pull from base
of stairs to open the door easily with your existing counter
weights. I had to come up with a door up to my railroad room as
well though my door doesn’t open up into the room but the loft
area in front of the room I designed a very lightweight door
similar to how you would make a module with 1x4 and foam and used
automotive gas pistons from a car hood system to easily open the
door and allow it to stay open. While that works for me now I can
see when I get older it could be harder to open even for me but
that is when I’ll install a pulley to aid in opening it with
little to no effort. Just a thought.?
   
On Jun 25, 2024, at 12:09?PM, Bob
Werre <bob@...> wrote:
?
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been
work'in on the railroad--all the live long day" and
basically having a blast in creating the monster.?? I'm
starting to have regrets over 2 things other than; too
small of a room and no water/bathroom (both beyond my
control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not
planning for a couple inches for
view-block/background+wood trim and my slightly
increased waistline!? The other thing is my floor-door!?
That has become increasingly an issue.? I've attached a
couple of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside
entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of
most of the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled
entrance.? So I surprised the city permitting people,
the member who helped with the room plans not to mention
most of my visitors too.? I laminated two sheets of
plywood to make it strong enough to support at least a
couple of guys standing on it, but still open wide
enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used
for many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and several other
clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part
of a steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs
counterweight that I put in the wall cavity. It was
never a body building exercise but over the years it's
become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I
age--any suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand
I've thought about garage door openers, automotive rear
hatch struts and ... (out of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
<DSCN9941.JPG>
<DSCN9945.JPG>
<floordoor.3.jpg>
|
Re: Custom Decal Recommendation
Roger,
The owner's name is Billy Brillinger.? Email is "billy at pdc dot CA".? The email is also in Ed's post above.
I can also highly recommend him...quality, price, service are all top notch!
Brooks Stover
|
Re: Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had
That address does not want to work for me... On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 12:39?PM John Degnan via groups.io <scaler164@...> wrote:
John Wickham is my go -to guy for all of my custom made turnouts.
John D
On 06/25/2024 at 11:50 AM, Woody Mitchell <woodymitch@...> wrote:
Also John Wickham: scottw90@...
On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 11:05:28 AM EDT, Jamie Bothwell <jamie.bothwell610@...> wrote:
Richard, Roger, and All
Empire Trackworks will have a table in the dealer hall at the NASG Convention in Harrisburg, July 17-20th. There's still time to register. Go to nasg.org for details.
Jamie Bothwell
Susquehannock II
Note: Dealer hall will be open the evening of the 18th, the 19th, and the morning of the 20th.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 10:47?AM Roger Nulton via groups.io <roger.nulton@...> wrote:
Richard,
Is this it?
From the NASG website,
Roger Nulton
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Haley
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S-Scale] Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had
saved it but obviously I've had a mental lapse and can't find it.
Therefore would someone that remembers their address please send me their address.
Thanking you in advance.
Richard H.
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Harbor Freight sells a small 12v. cable winch with a remote, which should easily lift your door.
|
Re: Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had
John Wickham is my go -to guy for all of my custom made turnouts.
John D
Also John Wickham:? scottw90@...?
On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 11:05:28 AM EDT, Jamie Bothwell <jamie.bothwell610@...> wrote:
Richard, Roger, and All Empire Trackworks will have a table?in the dealer hall at the NASG Convention in Harrisburg, July 17-20th. There's still time to register. Go to for details. Jamie Bothwell Susquehannock II Note: Dealer hall will be open the evening?of the 18th, the 19th, and the morning of the 20th. On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 10:47?AM Roger Nulton via <roger.nulton= [email protected]> wrote: Richard, ? Is this it? ? From the NASG website, Roger Nulton ? ? -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Haley
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S-Scale] Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had ? saved it but obviously I've had a mental lapse and can't find it. ? Therefore would someone that remembers their address please send me their address. Thanking you in advance. ? Richard H. ? ?
? ?
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
My first suggestion would be to simply add more weight to the counterweight so that the door actually has just barely over the amount of counter weight needed to OPEN it.? Going this route, you would actually have to exert a small amount of downward PULL to close it instead of upward PUSH to open it. Essentially you would be reversing your current situation.
John D
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in
on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a
blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets
over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no
water/bathroom (both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning
for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my
slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my
floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've
attached a couple of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside
entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of
the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I
surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with
the room plans not to mention most of my visitors too.? I
laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to
support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open
wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for
many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a
steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that
I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise
but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any
suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about
garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out
of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Perhaps contact a garage door repair place.? To help lift, they might be able to rig up one of the of those spring arrangements like are used on sectional rollup doors.? But the bulk of the long parallel spring would encroach on the door opening some.? At a minimum, they might be able to give you an idea or two.? It might even be the sort of thing they have seen before.? But even if not, this sort of thing is sort of in their "wheelhouse." I
Another thought.? I don't know how the weight in the wall cavity is arranged.? But it might be possible to affix lever arms to the door that would protrude into the space below and affix heavy counterweights.? It doesn't look like there is much room between the hinge point and the wall so those lever arms (which would probably have to be bent creatively to get around what looks like a beam along the hinge edge of the door) would probably have to be pretty short and the weights heavy.? And with the door open, they arms and weight would be straight down into the room area below.? With the door closed, up near the ceiling of the room below.
If you could move the hinging of the door to the other side, maybe there is more room but there seems to be a wall there, too.? But perhaps it could have a couple of openings made in it to clear levers and weights.? Or maybe the wall with the REA sign can have openings made.? I imagine the wall on at least one side of the stairs has space behind it..
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer?
On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 09:09:49 AM PDT, Bob Werre <bob@...> wrote:
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in
on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a
blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets
over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no
water/bathroom (both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning
for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my
slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my
floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've
attached a couple of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside
entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of
the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I
surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with
the room plans not to mention most of my visitors too.? I
laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to
support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open
wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for
many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a
steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that
I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise
but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any
suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about
garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out
of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Bob,
Consider a small electric winch with a detectable cable to and from the lift panel.
You could drill a hole through the lift up panel and install a small steel plate with a thread hole. Then insert a threaded eye bolt and then attach the cable to the eye bolt and activate the winch.
Mechanical assistance, minimal alterations to your existing structures, no tripping hazard, minimal space impediment, reasonable cost expenditure with the benefit that when the hatch is open it would now be secured in an open position.
Mike (Ohio)
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in
on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a
blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets
over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no
water/bathroom (both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning
for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my
slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my
floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've
attached a couple of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside
entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of
the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I
surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with
the room plans not to mention most of my visitors too.? I
laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to
support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open
wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for
many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a
steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that
I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise
but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any
suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about
garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out
of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
|
Re: seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Pulleys and a cable attached to the door so you can pull from base of stairs to open the door easily with your existing counter weights. I had to come up with a door up to my railroad room as well though my door doesn’t open up into the room but the loft area
in front of the room I designed a very lightweight door similar to how you would make a module with 1x4 and foam and used automotive gas pistons from a car hood system to easily open the door and allow it to stay open. While that works for me now I can see
when I get older it could be harder to open even for me but that is when I’ll install a pulley to aid in opening it with little to no effort. Just a thought.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Jun 25, 2024, at 12:09?PM, Bob Werre <bob@...> wrote:
?
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no water/bathroom
(both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've attached a couple
of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with the room plans not to mention
most of my visitors too.? I laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and
several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
<DSCN9941.JPG>
<DSCN9945.JPG>
<floordoor.3.jpg>
|
seeking advice from mechanical/engineering types!
Over the past 20-30 years that I've "been work'in
on the railroad--all the live long day" and basically having a
blast in creating the monster.?? I'm starting to have regrets
over 2 things other than; too small of a room and no
water/bathroom (both beyond my control financially)!?
My isle became a bit cramped due to not planning
for a couple inches for view-block/background+wood trim and my
slightly increased waistline!? The other thing is my
floor-door!? That has become increasingly an issue.? I've
attached a couple of photos.? I wanted to avoid an outside
entrance/stairway, I also wanted to have a clear view of most of
the layout so I wanted to avoid a walled entrance.? So I
surprised the city permitting people, the member who helped with
the room plans not to mention most of my visitors too.? I
laminated two sheets of plywood to make it strong enough to
support at least a couple of guys standing on it, but still open
wide enough to accept a 4x8 sheet of material as it was used for
many photo sets for the NASG, SHS and several other clients.?
To help in raising the door, I used part of a
steel plate cut and welded to make a 60+- lbs counterweight that
I put in the wall cavity. It was never a body building exercise
but over the years it's become more so!?
So I'm looking for a helping hand as I age--any
suggestions?? I've got more photos.? Off hand I've thought about
garage door openers, automotive rear hatch struts and ... (out
of ideas here!)?
Bob Werre
PhotoTraxx
|
Re: Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had
Also John Wickham:? scottw90@...?
On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 11:05:28 AM EDT, Jamie Bothwell <jamie.bothwell610@...> wrote:
Richard, Roger, and All Empire Trackworks will have a table?in the dealer hall at the NASG Convention in Harrisburg, July 17-20th. There's still time to register. Go to for details. Jamie Bothwell Susquehannock II Note: Dealer hall will be open the evening?of the 18th, the 19th, and the morning of the 20th.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 10:47?AM Roger Nulton via <roger.nulton= [email protected]> wrote: Richard, ? Is this it? ? From the NASG website, Roger Nulton ? ? -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Richard Haley
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2024 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [S-Scale] Looking for the assembler of 'S' scale switches. I thought I had ? saved it but obviously I've had a mental lapse and can't find it. ? Therefore would someone that remembers their address please send me their address. Thanking you in advance. ? Richard H. ? ?
? ?
|
Bill Lane
David McBrayer
Roger Nulton
Bob Werre
John Degnan
